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Voss wrote:
Yeah, see, that's all gibberish.

Its literally this:
https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/fiction_rule_of_thumb.png


Jordan definitely leans heavily into this, but there's no examples of that in the sentence you've quoted.

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 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
 Grumpy Gnome wrote:


Spoiler:
I fail to see how killing his wife is movie speak for Perrin being “slow”.



It seems we are both familiar with both the book and the show, so I'll expand some of my earlier thoughts:

Spoiler:
In the books, Perrin isn't described as "slow" but more that he's "slow to act". .. . Like, he's definitely depicted as being the bigger and strongest of the youths his age. In the books he does not want to hurt anyone, and acts slowly in order to avoid hurting others.

In the series, it seems that they are unable/unwilling to write that out effectively, so they provide a wife to kill off quite quickly. . . And so, we are seeing a grieving bloke who seems to be getting toward the "slow to act" because "my quick actions in the past killed someone I loved dearly"

Maybe I'm not seeing it the right way??? But it does seem to me that they are getting Perrin to a point where he was in the books: prefers to think things through, doesn't want to hurt anyone, and as a result is slow to action. . . Which isn't the same thing as "slow". . To me, the Perrin of the books may come to the same quick acting decision as say, the impulsive Mat. But Perrin has a strong need to think the situation through, like Jordan takes great pains to reference the previous blacksmith's twisted metal logic puzzles, especially when dealing with the character of Perrin.


I dunno, again, maybe I'm just seeing things differently/wrongly?


I just think you are being too generous.

And you are likely more familiar with the books than me. My memory is not what it used to be. But the bits I do remember matter to me. I remember them precisely because they had an impact on me when I read the books.

Spoiler:
I think of Perrin as thoughtful and slow to act shown well enough in the book. Having him his wife in blind fury is more like the writers are trying to foreshadow his “mysteriously more bestial” nature and his difficulty coming to terms with it. I was surprised they did not have him immediately follow the pacifism presented so well to him as a means to deal with the horror of killing his wife.

Let me put it this way, the writers managed to show Loial as “slow” without having him murder anyone. Maybe the writers wanted to differentiate Perrin from Loial but I think it could be done without creating and then killing a wife. I would have rather seen Perrin work on twisted metal logic puzzles.

I think part of my problem is that when folks make a movie of a book, I really want a movie of THAT book. Not a different version of the book or something like the book. If I liked the book I want to see the book. I realize that probably makes me different from most folks.

I do not want to yuck your yum, but I want to be clear about what I like and do not like in order to be honest and in hopes that more things will eventually be made the way I like them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/09 07:32:29


Rick, the Grumpy Gnome

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Les Etats Unis

Voss wrote:
 Dreadwinter wrote:
Voss wrote:
The Wheel of Time is a massive story, spanning 15 books, 704 total chapters and a whopping 4.4 million words.


I think you're getting caught up in minutiae in a series that has _way_ too much of it. By necessity, the move to a different format is going to take an axe to a lot of 'stuff.' Sword porn button trivia is a good thing to cut.


The Heron blade is pretty significant to the story. It's not even sword porn, at the time they are teaching them to fight so they can survive the monstrous beasts chasing them through the world trying to eat them. But also...

Its a super-katana. Its basically the definition of sword porn, written when fanboys would rhapsodize for hours about their crappy Muramasa knock-offs.

[Its also weirdly at odds with later books, where Jordan starts fetishizing the quarterstaff instead)

Spoiler:
The marking by the Heron is one of the first steps in the Prophecy of the Dragon in the Karatheon Cycle, which we have learned next to nothing about. He gets two marks eventually, these marks are supposed to identify him as the Dragon. We learn this as early as the first book. Next they will cut out the dragon tattoos he gets at Car'a'carn or the banner itself. Who needs a Horn of Valere anyways?

Yeah, see, that's all gibberish.

Its literally this:
https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/fiction_rule_of_thumb.png

Complete with bonus apostrophe word salad that even GW grew up enough to discard. Its a literary sin that Jordan was really egregious about (something he learned churning out trash Conan novels in a rush in the early 80s), but its not something you want to retain if you want to keep an audience for a show. You want to engage them, not bury them under a flood of bull-gak terminology.


Have you read the actual Wheel of Time book series? I don't mean this as an attempt at gatekeeping; I genuinely understand how the Heron-Mark Blade can look superfluous from an outsider's perspective.

Spoiler:
Setting aside all the plot stuff other users have mentioned, both the blade and the scars which Rand receives from it are some of the most thematically resonant symbols in the entire Wheel of Time series. Rand al'Thor's character arc throughout the series is centered around the weight of responsibility, and how having the power to change the world will by necessity be a form of torment for any virtuous person. The blade represents Rand's legacy, as well as the violence which he is forced to endure and commit.. It is no coincidence that all discussion of the blade is coupled with Rand's training with Lan, who teaches Rand that a life of violence is a living hell, yet still a burden that the just are at times forced to endure. Rand both literally and figuratively sacrifices himself multiple times throughout the series, and is simultaneously tormented by the sacrifices that others make for him, and the Heron is a symbol of that loss. The Heron is literally a symbol of violence: That's why it's emblazoned on the sword, and that's why the status afforded by wielding a Heron-Mark blade draws violence towards oneself.

The marks represent the weight of violence upon Rand's psyche the same as the blade does, but simultaneously are representative of the agony which he experiences by performing his duty for the world. Rand suffers multiple incurable injuries throughout the series, both mental and physical, and each is a reminder of the strain and sacrifice which he undertakes almost against his will. There are multiple instances in each book in which Rand is temporarily overtaken by the pain of his wounds, and this physical pain forms a parallel to the pain of rememberance which he is also stricken with throughout the later novels. Rand often suffers under the stress of nearly literally carrying the weight of the world upon his shoulders, or the guilt stemming from the legions of innocents which have either died to save him, or worse, serving him at his command. The mark of the Heron is a symbol that Rand, powerful as he may be, is not an enviable or aspirational figure, and instead be the object of the reader's pity.

No matter what you think about the Wheel of Time as a series, the quasi-literal symbols which Jordan adds (such as the Heron, or Mat's dice and Perrin's struggle between the axe and hammer) are some of the most emotionally resonant and thematically rich aspects of the story, and are crucial elements of any good adaptation. Neglecting to at least mention them would be like creating a performance of Macbeth with no mention of masks, or an adaptation of Watchmen without any clocks.

TLDR: Thematic elements in a piece of literature (yes, even fantasy literature) are not "sword porn."

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I don't think he has. Otherwise he wouldn't have made the fetishizing quarterstaff later in the series comment.

Jordan definitely does that from Book 1.
   
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I have.

And...
No matter what you think about the Wheel of Time as a series, the quasi-literal symbols which Jordan adds (such as the Heron, or Mat's dice and Perrin's struggle between the axe and hammer) are some of the most emotionally resonant and thematically rich aspects of the story, and are crucial elements of any good adaptation.


They're not. They're thematically pointless, because as you say, his pain, suffering and sacrifice is constant. It doesn't need symbolism, because its omnipresent in the story, and he's got so many other symbolic wounds and BS going on that its just wasted wordage.
It reminds me of the joke story (well, character sketch) that Moorcock wrote after Corum, where the title character is missing so many body parts and has so many replacements (each with their own names and backstories), its obvious he knew where his own flaws were as a writer. Jordan never got that (or at least, it was never apparent in his writing). What he most needed was an editor, preferably one armed with a machete.


@Dreadwinter-
Oh no, I forget when exactly in 4 million words staffs happen. That's some good evidence.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/09 21:02:37


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Yeah, I wonder what else you are forgetting or reducing for your own purposes from a 4 million word story you don't seem familiar with.
   
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So watched the first five episodes and still enjoying (unlike the books...)

I don't quite get how the Whitecloaks can roam around doing their torture the witch thing in sight of the White Tower or how the main torturer has survived so long unless he is immune to magic or something (?) hopefully not the usual trope that he is a magic user and doesn;t know it....

Still finding it hard to care about any of the youths - especially Mal - he seems a dick and now he is shadow possessed or something - but angry village witch is still too stupid to do anything sensible and will doubtless keep him hidden until he starts a killing spree.

Morein and Lan I like, as well as most of her sisters and the warders....

I think we all know that adapting a book has to change some things - often condensing characters, time, plots etc to make it work within a limited period. Game of Thrones had this - alot of their trimming worked - some upset people - I personally could care less about most of the stuff was cut but others did want Lady Stoneheart etc. On the other hand the last two seasons I hated....so....

Likely lots of this I am getting wrong - I don;t care about spoilers but others will!

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The Whitecloaks should be pretty useless that close to the White Tower. I don't know why the show is portraying the Aes Sedai as powerful when dealing with male casters, but useless when dealing with normal people.

Spoiler:
In the Books the Whitecloaks wouldn't be this bold because Caemlyn or one of the border nations would come down and stomp them for getting gakky with the Aes Sedai. In the books the Whitecloaks are generally only this ballsy in areas of their control, which is one small country, or when they are so far out in the wilderness nobody is going to know what they have done. Not within spitting distance of the White Tower.
   
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I agree with you Flipsiders.

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Voss wrote:
I have.

And...
No matter what you think about the Wheel of Time as a series, the quasi-literal symbols which Jordan adds (such as the Heron, or Mat's dice and Perrin's struggle between the axe and hammer) are some of the most emotionally resonant and thematically rich aspects of the story, and are crucial elements of any good adaptation.


They're not. They're thematically pointless, because as you say, his pain, suffering and sacrifice is constant. It doesn't need symbolism, because its omnipresent in the story, and he's got so many other symbolic wounds and BS going on that its just wasted wordage.
It reminds me of the joke story (well, character sketch) that Moorcock wrote after Corum, where the title character is missing so many body parts and has so many replacements (each with their own names and backstories), its obvious he knew where his own flaws were as a writer. Jordan never got that (or at least, it was never apparent in his writing). What he most needed was an editor, preferably one armed with a machete.


Frankly, I don't entirely understand this argument.

Often, the point of symbolism in a story is to allegorically express what is literally already there. Take Dawn of the Dead: The zombies represent consumerism, but since the movie is supposed to take place in a version of the real world, complete with malls and everything, the consumerism is clearly already there in-universe. Similarly, going back to the example of Watchmen, the story uses depictions of clocks and watches in its imagery to convey both the immutability of time and the oncoming threat of nuclear annihilation ("doomsday clock," etc.), but both of those things are also mentioned countless times in the actual story. They're the entire motivation of the story's antagonist, for God's sake. It's one thing to dislike the repetition or overuse of the symbols, which is a valid argument that I happen to disagree with, but I am genuinely confused by your claim that they shouldn't be there at all.

Spoiler:
On the topic of repetition, while there are times in which it's a genuine flaw in Jordan's writing, but it can also be extremely helpful in creating an oppressive atmosphere for the reader which mirrors the experience of the cast. Rand keeps narrating about his wounds over and over again, for instance, because they are literally an omnipresent aspect of his life. Every action Rand makes is made with those feelings in the back of his mind, so reiterating them helps place the reader in the same position as he is. It's an unconventional literary trick, to be sure, but not an unprecedented one.


There's obviously nothing wrong with critiquing Jordan's writing, because there is certainly a lot to critique. However, I don't see the train of thought between, say, removing the atrocious "arguing on roadtrip" subplot in the fifth book and straight up ejecting pieces of symbolism because they represent things which are also described.

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https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/qxt9h5/some_thoughts_from_brandon_episode_one/

It appears I wasn't alone in my complaints about Perrin and Abel.

I am considering this not to be an adaptation of the book, but instead one of those parallel universes in the series. That would explain the grimdark for sure.
   
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 Dreadwinter wrote:
https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/qxt9h5/some_thoughts_from_brandon_episode_one/

It appears I wasn't alone in my complaints about Perrin and Abel.

I am considering this not to be an adaptation of the book, but instead one of those parallel universes in the series. That would explain the grimdark for sure.


I think thats wise and likely accurate (and for most adaptions)

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So far the only thing that REALLY grates on me is the Ways in the recent episode. Some of the characters are understandable tweaks for television (as such lacking inner monologue of the books), but now the Ways are 100% different. Now they are a One Power-activated stargate into a black cave of stalactites, riven with distant lightning and thunder?

I sincerely hope they take on at least a half-way recognizable form in the next episode. They were one of the great sinister and melancholy parts of the books, as a halfway-understood relic of a bygone era, slowly falling apart.



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/15 01:34:45




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 Dreadwinter wrote:
https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/qxt9h5/some_thoughts_from_brandon_episode_one/

It appears I wasn't alone in my complaints about Perrin and Abel.

I am considering this not to be an adaptation of the book, but instead one of those parallel universes in the series. That would explain the grimdark for sure.


Thanks for that link, very interesting.

Yes… parallel universe, that seems to be the best answer these days.

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Enjoying the show alot - but having trouble caring anything much about the "five" - seem the least interesting characters.

The Ogre guy was quite fun.

Egwene seems to be the only one with grasp of whats going on and is def the least worst
Perrin is ok - the death of wife was well done and he is obviously in PTSD but just doesn't do much
The "Wisdom" seems anything but - being sulky, with a huge chip on her shoulder
I liked Rand a bit but seems to be getting worse - likely due to influence of
Mat who I hope (likely in vein) the red ladies deal with (permently)

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"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

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The Battle Barge Buffet Line

Finished the Witcher S2 today and just started WOT. I never read the books so I'm curious how I'll take this. I wasn't a fan of the trailers but I'm open to my mind being changed.

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 warboss wrote:
Finished the Witcher S2 today and just started WOT. I never read the books so I'm curious how I'll take this. I wasn't a fan of the trailers but I'm open to my mind being changed.


I was unimpressed with the Trailers too but enjoyed the show.

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

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The Battle Barge Buffet Line

Well, I watched the first episode yesterday and my feelings are mixed but not in the way that the trailers would have indicated.

First off the good... the sets are nice and the world feels more lived in that I thought in the trailers. It could use a bit more grime as it comes off as a Shannara teen drama a bit (especially in terms of the costumes styling and cleanliness). The acting is decent and no real complaints there other than Rosamund Pike coming across as overacting a bit in her seriousness. The other actors do what they can with the scripts and direction they're provided. The practical monster effects are commendable and the actors and makeup artists do a good job in selling the beastmen/trollorcs with only a couple times them ending up looking like actors in fur suits on stilts.

The bad... wow... those special effects look substandard when Rosamund is casting her spells. I know Amazon spends a ton of money on their shows but it doesn't show in that. It's just barely above the modern day equivalent of Sharnado and Xena/Hercules in that regard and worse than the equivalents in the Witcher that I just watched (and much worse than the Amazon scifi Expanse) in terms of quality.

The cringe. Killing your pregnant wife in episode one? It would have been nice if they had built up that relationship a bit on screen to put some meaning to her death beyond a few hugs and pregnant belly rubs. Are they doing that (and incorporating the multisex bathtub.. a first for me as a viewer since Starship Troopers!) to edge up the show for the GOT crowd? I was under the impression that WOT was a book series, that while enjoyed by adults, was also readable by tweens. Was I wrong in that outsider assessment? Then there is the blatantly hypocritical sexism which I'm not sure if its from the books or a new addition by Amazon. They gave up the rights to Conan to make this show specifically because of that reason and then they turn around and do the same thing in reverse killing men just for being men and multiple women only power structures. Lol. It doesn't bother me (hence why its in cringe and not bad) but the opposite would likely not have been incorporated in the show regardless of whether its in the books or not.

So those are my thoughts as an outsider whose most detailed experience with the series being liking the original book cover during the heyday of oil painting fantasy art in the 80s/2nd ed D&D.

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The five from Aemon's Field (except Ninaeve) are teens in the book, around 15 IIRC, so no, Perrin's wife is completely new, and Egwene and Rand weren't an item yet.

Personally I don't like the fridging, but seems that the rationale was to show why would Perrin be skittish regarding violence, and as a foreshadowing for some other stuff.

The "sexism" of sorts is there in the books, due to stuff xD. Look, it's a fething big book series ^^, so I could be saying that for a while.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/21 19:23:58


 
   
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The Battle Barge Buffet Line

 Albertorius wrote:
The five from Aemon's Field (except Ninaeve) are teens in the book, around 15 IIRC, so no, Perrin's wife is completely new, and Egwene and Rand weren't an item yet.

Personally I don't like the fridging, but seems that the rationale was to show why would Perrin be skittish regarding violence, and as a foreshadowing for some other stuff.


I think they could have accomplished that with childhood trauma ala your fellow Spaniard Inigo Montoya or waiting another episode or two before having him accidentally/recklessly kill her after more establishing what seems like a new character just for that purpose.

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 warboss wrote:
Then there is the blatantly hypocritical sexism which I'm not sure if its from the books or a new addition by Amazon. They gave up the rights to Conan to make this show specifically because of that reason and then they turn around and do the same thing in reverse killing men just for being men and multiple women only power structures. Lol. It doesn't bother me (hence why its in cringe and not bad) but the opposite would likely not have been incorporated in the show regardless of whether its in the books or not.



Jordan devoted probably as many pages to "ugh, men" thoughts as he did describing the women's buttons. Sure the Aes Sedai are currently a ladies only club, but within the novels/expanded lore, twas not always so. And the show runners very briefly (really, it felt more like a nod/fan service to those who've slogged through the books) bring in the women's circle in Aemon's Field/Two Rivers, and in the case of the women's circle, they dont even touch on the "men's" side of things where the innkeeper is basically the mayor, and there's sort of a "men's circle" which acts as a counterbalance to "women's business" or some such.

But to your point of the Reds "killing men just for being men" isn't quite accurate, although the show-runners, again because of medium, can only go so far in exposition in telling you about who the Reds are and what they are actually about (in the books, a few, rare Reds do take Warders. . . and the Greens aren't really portrayed in the books as sex-fiending orgy-ists with a penchant for fighting)
   
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The Battle Barge Buffet Line

Thanks for the explanation. Yeah, they're limited by time in the medium they're in but it is telling what they chose to show and what apparently according to your post they don't. Fortunately the second and third episode (so far) don't seem to lean so heavily on that.

Instead, I'm left wondering things like how a old timey country bumpkin healer on foot can catch up with supposedly hard riding horseback travelers who destroyed the only easy way across a deep river. I don't know if they'll explain that later via her special wisdom powers or if we're just not supposed to ask. Also, boo on the cgi trollocs! I just complimented their practical effects and then they add quick cgi shots that could have been done the practically either on location with a few extras.

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 warboss wrote:
. Also, boo on the cgi trollocs! I just complimented their practical effects and then they add quick cgi shots that could have been done the practically either on location with a few extras.



Yeah, first time we saw Trollocs on screen, I legit thought they had gone to Austria and just grabbed up as many Krampusnacht runnners as they could find, that's what so many of the Trolloc costumes reminded me of, but I guess that at some point, numbers being numbers they "had" to go cgi? (which is a shame really)

   
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 warboss wrote:
They gave up the rights to Conan to make this show specifically because of that reason and then they turn around and do the same thing in reverse killing men just for being men and multiple women only power structures. Lol. It doesn't bother me (hence why its in cringe and not bad) but the opposite would likely not have been incorporated in the show regardless of whether its in the books or not.


They kill men because of the magic power of men being tainted by dark one(the ultimate evil) dooming any men tapping into the source going eventually mad and go berserk(and note it's not like you can avoid that. The moment you first time touch the power you are doomed. You literally CANNOT avoid using it more and getting mad. You can delay with utmost self control...but ultimately once you touch it once you are doomed. Question is just when and how much damage you do to those around you. The dragon originally killed everybody he could find with his blood(ie relative) in his madness and prophecy says when he comes back he will destroy the world(along with saving people from the dark one).

So there's actually reason those men are killed. Albeit red's are doing it bit too vigorously erring on the side of "better kill innocent than take risk of madmen escaping". So their goal is actually understandable. Just over the millenia's went overboard.

And yes there's women only power structures. Also men only. Except for magic wielding for above mentioned reason. They are feared and hated so any attempt for them to organize would be stamped. Entire armies will take to field to hunt down even single men who wields powers(and often are needed entire armies to take them down). And to have power structure you need stability. If the guys trying to form power structure go insane and die constantly it makes kinda hard to form power structures eh?

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I thought the show covered all the points pretty well very early:

* Men using magic is bad and dangerous as its sends them mad, Red ladies hunt them down and deal with it. Easy
* Women using magic is ok there is a support struture for it but also there is politics and social staus complications. Easy

* Religious (?) loonys believe that all magic is bad except for the militant guy who is happy to say (in front of the really loony witch hunter) hey go and vist a I-Sadai to get healed....not quite sure why these guys are allowed to exist but thats religious fanatics i guess

* Some Red ladies enjoy the power trip or are just very hardline.

* Men seem to be in positions of power but just not with regards to magic for what seems to be sensible in universe reasons. Easy

My 79 year old mother had no issues with anything so far so not sure what the issue is...its not a complicated story so far at all.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/22 14:29:28


I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in es
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer






 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
 warboss wrote:
. Also, boo on the cgi trollocs! I just complimented their practical effects and then they add quick cgi shots that could have been done the practically either on location with a few extras.



Yeah, first time we saw Trollocs on screen, I legit thought they had gone to Austria and just grabbed up as many Krampusnacht runnners as they could find, that's what so many of the Trolloc costumes reminded me of, but I guess that at some point, numbers being numbers they "had" to go cgi? (which is a shame really)


As I understand it, the production was heavily disrupted by Covid, so maybe they had to do some of those.
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Battle Barge Buffet Line

tneva82 wrote:

They kill men because of the magic power of men being tainted by dark one(the ultimate evil) dooming any men tapping into the source going eventually mad and go berserk(and note it's not like you can avoid that. The moment you first time touch the power you are doomed. You literally CANNOT avoid using it more and getting mad. You can delay with utmost self control...but ultimately once you touch it once you are doomed. Question is just when and how much damage you do to those around you. The dragon originally killed everybody he could find with his blood(ie relative) in his madness and prophecy says when he comes back he will destroy the world(along with saving people from the dark one).

So there's actually reason those men are killed. Albeit red's are doing it bit too vigorously erring on the side of "better kill innocent than take risk of madmen escaping". So their goal is actually understandable. Just over the millenia's went overboard.


I didn't say there wasn't an in-universe reason for it but rather that it boils down to men + one power = death sentence. Heck, the blonde red Aes Sedai states the reason as she is about to kill him referring to him being lost in the madness. Can you really imagine a scenario where a show based on flawed but still supposedly good tough love team of mystically powerful men hunting down and psychologically maiming or physically killing every woman who tries to wield that same power makes it to air in 2021? I don't.

And yes there's women only power structures. Also men only. Except for magic wielding for above mentioned reason. They are feared and hated so any attempt for them to organize would be stamped. Entire armies will take to field to hunt down even single men who wields powers(and often are needed entire armies to take them down). And to have power structure you need stability. If the guys trying to form power structure go insane and die constantly it makes kinda hard to form power structures eh?


But they choose not to show those parallel (and obviously lesser by default) male power structures you and Ensis mentioned. The only one hinted at so far (four episodes in for me) is the White Cloaks who are obviously being at least initially portrayed as closeminded witchhunter baddies who (again.. so far) are exclusively male so far in their power structure (again... going off of what they've show by episode four). That's not equality. They gave up a show (Conan) in part because of the sexist optics and went instead with a show with gender based violence and sexist power structures. Lol. I don't have an issue with that in a fantasy or scifi setting but I notice real world hypocrisy.

For example, while reading some reviews of the show apparently in the books the dragon reborn is exculsively male but the show in the first episode has Moraine (sp?) specifically correct someone that it could also be a female and apparently the bar maid love interest for the shephard (sorry bad on names so far) is a candidate for the dragon reborn to de-masculinize that role. I don't have an issue with that but if they were trying to make things equal then they should have also made the Aes Sedai non-genderbased either (and obviously have the madness associated with power affect anyone potentially and not just males). That's equality. Combined with all the above, it seems like the pendulum is only being yanked one way.

Regardless, thankfully this type of cringe seems to be mostly front loaded into that first episode as the rest of it is better so far. I'm actually enjoying the show more since the first episode. There are some gripes that I haven't previously stated and some that continue. The fx still look substandard for the budget that they obviously have on the show. Moraine looks like she's doing exaggerated Tai Chi when calling on the power (Turn the wheel of time like it was a gigantic butter churn in order to call on its power!). Perrin is supposed to look like he's suffering from PTSD but he just looks like a big dope with his mouth hanging open at all times even when he's in the background and I'm surprised he's not drooling. The shephard is annoyingly mercurial and I'm not sure if he's supposed to be. And there sure are lots of tell don't show exposition lines along with sweeping drone shots. At least the production is getting their money's worth from that amazon purchase with free prime shipping! And the fx for the dark lord make him look like a scrotum version of a grey alien with glowy eyes... not sure if that's as described in the book but frankly his Fade servants are both more impressive and terrifying to me. YMMV.

The other two candidates for the dragon are probably the best in terms of acting (along with Morraine's manservant two legged lapdog samurai!). The bard/gleeman seems like an interesting addition to the cast. And the crazy middle eastern guy who thinks he's the dragon looks like an interesting addition as well. Looking forward to tonights episodes! But I'll have to catch up on the finale of Hawkeye first though.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/22 16:02:22


We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
 
   
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I think the biggest problem with the show is the lack of explanations. I as a book reader have no problems in filling out all the blanks but I have to explain things for my brothers all the time who havent read the books.

My brothers don't really know what the threat to the world is yet and why it matters who the Dragon is. The Dark One has been mentioned but unlike the books he seems more like an inconvenience in the show. In the book the Dragon reborn AND the dark one is seen as world ending catastrophes and it is established as early as in the prologue and chapter 1 of the book. It is like a christian hearing the devil is actually walking around the world in physical form in preparation for the end of the world.

It wouldn't have been much of a problem if they had focused more scenes to explain the world building rather than all the filler content there is in episode 4,5,6 and 7 that do nothing to develop the main cast but instead are building up and then killing off side characters or showing characters that arent even in the first few books or characters that isn't important to show even if they are in the books later on.

So far there is perhaps 2h of content not related to the first book or the main characters in the first 7 hours of the show. That alone makes it a really weird and bad adaption. They lack time and have no idea on how to manage it. In a more loosely based adaption it wouldn't matter much but WoT is 14 massive books and you can't really deviate from the main conflict and still be WoT. Other properties or even other timelines in WoT can be more loose but not the main conflict really. The whole conflict is so ingrained in the world building that I don't see how they can fix this in the later seasons in a good way. They are already so off track that the other 13 books are more and more becoming a problem than a resource in continuing the story.

It can still be an average to good story for non book readers for a few seasons I think but the more they go on like this the less likely it will be able to last long enough to get to the good payoffs in the books. There is no way they will get to go more than halfway through the story.

They should have done the prequel book if they wanted Morraine as the main character or done a different story set in the universe if they wanted to put in all this extra content and focus on other characters than the 3 main characters (Rand, Mat and Perrin). Like do Manetheren, Artur Hawkwing or explore Seanchan or anything not the main story line in the books. Would piss off less book readers and give them way more leeway in how to do things and not be as restricted. They of course won't get as much hype and as large as an audience if they did that though. Which is the reason why they went after the biggest fantasy series they could get their hands on. to get an established audience, to tell their (not Rober Jordans) story without building up a new audience and reputation. Scummy thing to do and I hope it backfires and it looks like it will.
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

Klickor wrote:
I think the biggest problem with the show is the lack of explanations. I as a book reader have no problems in filling out all the blanks but I have to explain things for my brothers all the time who havent read the books.

My brothers don't really know what the threat to the world is yet and why it matters who the Dragon is. The Dark One has been mentioned but unlike the books he seems more like an inconvenience in the show. In the book the Dragon reborn AND the dark one is seen as world ending catastrophes and it is established as early as in the prologue and chapter 1 of the book. It is like a christian hearing the devil is actually walking around the world in physical form in preparation for the end of the world.

Really? What did they need explaining? I am confused.

The Dark One is so obviously (or appears to be) a Sauron style superpowerful Dark Lord style villian so what else do we need to know? Its been explained several times in the show - what have your brothers not understood that my mother did?

Not a book reader - didn't get past the first one.

Ughh Gods is Mat staying the in show - I suppose he will make a good villian for the other villagers to agonise more over....

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

As I've mentioned, I read the first few books decades ago, remember basically nothing about them except a few names and the odd scene.

Literally nothing in the show has felt in need of further explanation to me, outside that which was obviously a device to show the viewer there was more to something than fist shown.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

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