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Infact... Can you imagine if Vessels worked the other way? If it was an AoF that made Strats area buffs, you'd take as many storm bolters as you could and buff your whole army with Blessed Bolts every turn. The effect on the BB strat would be to either tone it down to the point it's no longer useful, or to make it cost a ludicrous amount of command points. Not to mention what would happen to our other half way decent stratagems.

I get your point, and to an extent I agree - index aof could do with reigning in as the potential to combo with new abilities is strong. Where I disagree is in the execution, aof has been nerfed so hard as to be inconsequential in most cases - passion is probably the only aof that can impact meaningfully on a game now and yet it still doesnt make sisters stand out as being good at something - so on to your other point, no it doesnt feel like playing sisters as their utility has been reduced - if a faction has no strengths in their unique abilities players who dont want to auto lose are restricted to taking only the strongest units, further detracting from the connection with the faction itself.

How many players will use retributors now that they cannot shoot twice? Same question but on seraphim now that they are not the fastest jump infantry? Will anyone use penitent engines - they are ministorum so cannot use vessels. By nerfing all the units that rely on faction rules only those that are strong by themselves will see any action, so you either play dominions to feel like sisters or bring a bunch of -1T discount space marines.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

From what i read and heard from play testers, the reason it changed was b.c they saw every using only Double move and Double shoot and only on Seraphim and Celestine. They didnt want the army to play that way and changed it to reflect that. They wanted you to be able to more aof's for more units.

Now IMO they need to let us cast them more often, all AoF needs a +1 to cast, but it is Beta and we can ask for that.

Edit: Spelling

Yeah, now take that double move/shoot on celestine + 1 unit of seraphim and add vessels and make it double move/shoot on celestine + 3 units of seraphim. Double shoot on 3 units of HB Rets, all your Melta/MM/SB. it's Yinari on crack but without Dark Reapers


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Insularum wrote:
[spoiler]
I get your point, and to an extent I agree - index aof could do with reigning in as the potential to combo with new abilities is strong. Where I disagree is in the execution, aof has been nerfed so hard as to be inconsequential in most cases - passion is probably the only aof that can impact meaningfully on a game now and yet it still doesnt make sisters stand out as being good at something - so on to your other point, no it doesnt feel like playing sisters as their utility has been reduced - if a faction has no strengths in their unique abilities players who dont want to auto lose are restricted to taking only the strongest units, further detracting from the connection with the faction itself.

How many players will use retributors now that they cannot shoot twice? Same question but on seraphim now that they are not the fastest jump infantry? Will anyone use penitent engines - they are ministorum so cannot use vessels. By nerfing all the units that rely on faction rules only those that are strong by themselves will see any action, so you either play dominions to feel like sisters or bring a bunch of -1T discount space marines.

Yeah, exactly that. "Aof has been nerfed so hard as to be inconsequential in most cases" it's bad design, we can argue that because it does feel so lack luster it doesn't fulfill the faction fantasy that AoF do not feel rewarding and include that in feedback alongside any mathhammer or "hardscores" feedback because it is equally as valid.

All solid points... I hope we find a way to package this thinking for the designers.

What if the number of AoFs was unlimited overall, but it was one each per turn, and the ease of success was what scaled with your army? With your first detachment, you get one of each per turn, and they're far from automatic. Each additional sisters detachment makes them easier, and you need them to be more reliable because they need to empower more units. Each non sisters detachment makes them harder... built in soup penalty, but you don't care as much because now you have CTs or orders. With a pure Sisters force, they are so reliable you can plan around them, but with a small allied sisters detachment they're more of an occasional perk. Add in a strat to recycle one per turn... does it start to feel scalable and useful and fluffy?

Another issue is that Faith may be too close to command points and stratagems to have it's own identity because every army has the whole points for special rules thing in this edition. it's not uniquely sisters and adding a dice roll to the system to make you feel good when you get a successful roll is little more than a surface level slot machine effect.

Surely there must be a way to make Faith feel like it's own thing, be rewarding to use and not feel like a bad rehash of any other excising system.

I can definitely get behind that sentiment - aof is just a stratagem by another name, and I find it very believable that by design sisters cannot have both good aof and good stratagems. Separating the two will be hard as they are currently indistinguishable (use limited points to activate a time limited boost); the only other in game buff system I can think of would be the space wolves sagas - achieve a goal/test of faith to turn on a permanent modest improvement (whilst rolling all the current aof's into stratagems).

So I may be late to the party, but can you use the +3” move AoF on an immolator using its vanguard move? Cause that’d be kinda nice if so...

Also, I think I’ve figured out my qualm with the Repressor, and I’m sure someone else has already mentioned it, but here goes:

I like the repressor. I really do, but I HATE that we are tied to a transport that doesn’t even get made anymore. We really either need to see the Repressor become the new plastic transport hotness of the Sororitas, but I have a feeling they won’t do that because Sisters already have two dedicated transports. Hopefully I’m wrong, but my playtesting results will mention this often.

I think you are mixing up the 2? The 3" movement is "Hand of the Emperor" and its an AoF, Vanguard is the free movement before the game starts for Dominion Squads
Also AoF dont work on vehicles unless using the 3CP Stratagem, Doms Vanguard does work while they are inside a vehicle and only them.

Repressors are from FW, its up to FW if they want to make it again or not, it has nothing to do with GW.

 godswildcard wrote:
So I may be late to the party, but can you use the +3” move AoF on an immolator using its vanguard move? Cause that’d be kinda nice if so...

Also, I think I’ve figured out my qualm with the Repressor, and I’m sure someone else has already mentioned it, but here goes:

I like the repressor. I really do, but I HATE that we are tied to a transport that doesn’t even get made anymore. We really either need to see the Repressor become the new plastic transport hotness of the Sororitas, but I have a feeling they won’t do that because Sisters already have two dedicated transports. Hopefully I’m wrong, but my playtesting results will mention this often.

Any chance GW feels trapped by the Repressor? If the Codex is too strong, the Repressor unleashes an unstoppable army, so they backed off a bit?

 Amishprn86 wrote:
From what i read and heard from play testers, the reason it changed was b.c they saw every using only Double move and Double shoot and only on Seraphim and Celestine. They didnt want the army to play that way and changed it to reflect that. They wanted you to be able to more aof's for more units.

They just needed to change the moment you activated the act of faith, and to allow it on vehicle. You would have had a lot of double-shooting dominions and double-moving transports that way. Maybe even double-moving penitent engine/close combat troops. Or double fighting close combat too!

They just made the shooting only work on stuff that has a long range or can shoot inside of close combat (pistols), the double move not work on vehicles, and the double fight only work after being charged and surviving. They literally prevented any embarked unit from using acts of faith So of course it was only used on Celestine, Seraphim and HB retributors…

Vehicles have orders but can't use the convictions? So valorous heart repressors can get the 6++?

 MacPhail wrote:
Any chance GW feels trapped by the Repressor? If the Codex is too strong, the Repressor unleashes an unstoppable army, so they backed off a bit?

They made changes to FW stuff in CA, they could have done so here. I doubt that that was the reason for the changes.

 pretre wrote:

 MacPhail wrote:
Any chance GW feels trapped by the Repressor? If the Codex is too strong, the Repressor unleashes an unstoppable army, so they backed off a bit?

They made changes to FW stuff in CA, they could have done so here. I doubt that that was the reason for the changes.

They are only making minor point changes b.c FW is not able to atm, if FW cant make a model GW isnt going to, they have their own plans

Are mistresses still characters, or did they become squad upgrades like Imagifiers?

If they're characters, using vessel to passion on 27 repentia is gross. Having the option bump them all by 3 in addition to the mistress charge reroll when you need it could be handy.

Rather than putting them in rhinos, I would send them in with a cohort of arcos led by a priest and some penitent engines. Your enemy would have a hard figuring out what to take out.

Also, can pennies still be taken in squads of three? Because if so, that would mean you could fit nine of them in without breaking the rule of three, right?

I just want to see what it could do. I don't have the book and haven't seen a leak that lets me cost it yet, but that will definitely be one of my playtests.

confoo22 wrote:

First off, your averaging is off and an imperfect way to compare. You're not even referring to the average and don't take into account the number of 4+ rolls you need, just that there is one. You're actual average roll is 3.5 in the scenario you paint up there. That doesn't mean you get to say that you get "THIRTY Acts of Faith that go off on a 3" though. You get 6 for free and then only 6 more that go off on less than 3. Then 15 that require a 4+.

1+2+4+4+4/5 = 3.

confoo22 wrote:

If you really want to math it out, in a 6-turn game you automatically get 6, average out another 5, and then can average out to an additional 9, so 20 on average. And sure, that's awesome, BUT you had to spend 120 points to make that happen. Also, and quite frankly I'm a little surprised no one is mentioning this, those extra AoF were all dependent on where certain characters were standing on the board whereas the new system is army-wide. This allows for a little more flexibility and keeps you from having to babysit units with characters with minimal offensive output, which could end up wasting some of those potential AoF.

You are calculating the average you will SUCCEED on, not the number you can ATTEMPT. This is important because the new AoF system is throttled around the number you can ATTEMPT.

And comparing 40pt tax to get a 4+ attempt per turn, to 90pt minimum for a single attempt... probably shouldn't go there.

confoo22 wrote:

I mean, to give you a scenario, let's say you double shoot with a BSS squad that has an imagifier nearby and then there are no more units in range, but they have to camp an objective. Either you're wasting potential AoF turns by standing still, being in a transport, or spending them on the character itself to hustle her across the board to a spot where she's useful. Or even if the unit doesn't have to camp but you need to move them, they can only go as fast as the imagifier if the army-wide AoF is needed elsewhere, so there are potential turns of wasted AoF there as well. Of course that's assuming you get the 4+ roll each turn, but are you willing to spend a CP so they can double move if not?

I would rather spend a CP to get them to double move than spend a CP to get them to move +3".

confoo22 wrote:

It's also a little dishonest of you to say "without any other inputs" since the new system is all about inputs. I mean, you can choose one of the convictions to get an army-wide +1 to the roll for free, and there are several other ways to beef up that roll. But with the old system the roll was what it was and you couldn't manipulate it without spending CP for a re-roll, which you can still do. You also have multiple ways to regenerate faith points or simply add new ones and even a new ability that lets you spread a single AoF to multiple units who are not sisters, something you could not do before. If you play your cards right you actually have a better chance for the abilities to go off on a wider number of units in any given turn than you did in the index.

Adding 1 to AoF rolls costs you a FnP, +1Str/Atk, or 5+ overwatch and virtual morale immunity. The cost of improving the AoF exceeds the value of the AoF.

confoo22 wrote:

So yes, under the old system you had the POTENTIAL for more overall in the game, but it wasn't as much of a guarantee as you're making it sound, nor 100% useful every turn, and you're not limited to one army-wide and several small 6" board pockets under the new system. Point is, there have been trade-offs that you're not acknowledging, which ends up painting a much bleaker picture.

I will admit that AoF are not perfect (once per battle round is extremely limiting) and that some of the new abilities themselves are underwhelming in comparison to what we used to get. Plus some of the combos will require careful logistics and strategy and won't come cheap. But the roll mechanic and potential total Acts you can get are hardly the big problem with the beta system.

It really is. If the new acts were guaranteed, then Sisters would trend towards Bloody Rose, with Celestine, Canoness and Repentia balls, with Seraphim deepstriking to clear objectives and charge for 82 S4 equivalent attacks if they succeed on the charge. But they're not.

If the new acts included double shooting, then Sisters would trend towards castling up as Ebon Chalice around splashing double-shooting onto Exorcists and Rets. But they're not.

If the new acts included double moving, then Sisters would trend towards disposable "Silver Bullets" like the Inferno Pistol Seraphim to snipe characters. But they're not.




As for Vessel of the Emperor: if individual Acts can't not suck because they could be splashed to 10+ units, GET RID OF THE SPLASH. Don't render the base mechanic unusuable so that you can implement a stratagem that you will then never use because the mechanic sucks.

TBH I like the idea of super fast sisters the most

They aren't great up close, and all their assault units are fragile

 deviantduck wrote:
Vehicles have orders but can't use the convictions? So valorous heart repressors can get the 6++?

Apparently not - they are happy for some Factions to benefit completely from Chapter tactics but not apparently Marines and def not Sisters as its only Infantry

Given that 3 out of 6 Order Devotions are dedicated to boosting Acts of Faith, which can only be used by Infantry, it's not particularly surprising either.

It would be nice if they followed the AM model and gave vehicles a different ability than Infantry.

GW has shown time and time again that cardboard boxes don't get chapter tactics/convictions.

I think it's dumb that Chimera gets it but a Rhino doesn't. However debating it right now is a waste of time. Hopefully in the future they'll fix it but right now they have shown no desire to.

Anyway I'm thinking our best play (as mentioned by someone above) is deep striking Seraphim and using them to clear a screen for a BA captain. The fatal flaw is that you can only ever 2 it twice a game and that you are relying on a bunch of hand flamers/bolt pistols.

So Priests, Pennies, Repentia, Crusaders, DCA, Arco, Vehicles, and Celestine don't get Convictions, correct? I have a game tonight and I'm trying to get my ducks in a row.

Repentia do the rest do not (per my understanding).

Rynner wrote:
Repentia do the rest do not (per my understanding).

Thanks sir.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Next query that I didn't see addressed in the two CA reviews I watched.
AoF's can only be used once a turn, and if you attempt them, the faith point is spent. Got it. But...

Can you attempt mulitple AoFs on the same unit? (assuming they fail)
Ex: Hand of the Emperor. Fails. The Passion. Fails. and burn through all of your FP?
Can you try multiple attempts of the same AoF on the same unit?
Ex: HoE, fails. HoE, fails again. etc.
If an AoF fails on unit 1, can you attempt the same AoF on unit 2?
Ex: HoE fails on retributors. HoE works on Seraphim.

Or, is it each AoF can be attempted once per phase, period. Meaning you could never use more than 6 FP on 6 different units per turn.

You can never use more than 6 FPs per turn. One attempt per power per turn. I don't think there is a restriction on using more than one power on a unit in a turn.

PuppetSoul wrote:
1+2+4+4+4/5 = 3.

This is why I called your math fuzzy. You can't average Celestine's freebie in the number since you're not actually rolling for it. The average roll was 3.5 plus you get 6 for free, which I said.

PuppetSoul wrote:
You are calculating the average you will SUCCEED on, not the number you can ATTEMPT. This is important because the new AoF system is throttled around the number you can ATTEMPT.

And comparing 40pt tax to get a 4+ attempt per turn, to 90pt minimum for a single attempt... probably shouldn't go there.

I calculated the average success because it's a more accurate representation of what you're talking about than the roll number. If you had 30 attempts with an average roll of 3 you would actually have an average of 15 successes, not 20. If you're talking solely about the number of attempts, why did you even bring averages into your original argument?

And it's disingenuous of you to say that it's a "90pt minimum for a single attempt" since that's a byproduct of units you were purchasing anyways as opposed to an additional unit you have to purchase for the sole purpose of gaining attempts. Plus you now have a variety of ways to get additional attempts throughout the game, some for free.

PuppetSoul wrote:
I would rather spend a CP to get them to double move than spend a CP to get them to move +3".

Congratulations, but that's more about the quality of the new AoF than it is about how desirable the potential for more is. My point is that having more AoF isn't all that great if you end up having to use them in a way that's not conducive to actually winning the game. Sure, on turn 6 I could double move some sisters so they go 12+ inches and are still out of range from doing anything beneficial. But if the game ends, who cares?

PuppetSoul wrote:
Adding 1 to AoF rolls costs you a FnP, +1Str/Atk, or 5+ overwatch and virtual morale immunity. The cost of improving the AoF exceeds the value of the AoF.

That's a misdirect. My point is that there are ways to beef up the AoF roll so you're not locked into the roll number like you were in the previous version. I'm not debating which order has the better ability.

PuppetSoul wrote:
It really is. If the new acts were guaranteed, then Sisters would trend towards Bloody Rose, with Celestine, Canoness and Repentia balls, with Seraphim deepstriking to clear objectives and charge for 82 S4 equivalent attacks if they succeed on the charge. But they're not.

It really isn't and you prove that by abandoning your point to talk about the quality of the new AoF, which no one is saying are better. And I'm not sure why you're talking about the new ones being guaranteed in this context since the old ones weren't guaranteed except for Celestine's freebie.

PuppetSoul wrote:
If the new acts included double shooting, then Sisters would trend towards castling up as Ebon Chalice around splashing double-shooting onto Exorcists and Rets. But they're not.

If the new acts included double moving, then Sisters would trend towards disposable "Silver Bullets" like the Inferno Pistol Seraphim to snipe characters. But they're not.

And if a frog had wings it wouldn't bump its butt when it hopped.

PuppetSoul wrote:
As for Vessel of the Emperor: if individual Acts can't not suck because they could be splashed to 10+ units, GET RID OF THE SPLASH. Don't render the base mechanic unusuable so that you can implement a stratagem that you will then never use because the mechanic sucks.

The base mechanic is not unusable and does not suck, it just has decreased potential attempts across the course of the game. Though usually by the end of previous games half of that potential was either not being realized or lost due to deaths. You traded that for a system that was more flexible both in list-building and in-game tactics, and where you don't lose a chunk of potential attempts to a lucky round of sniper fire. You can certainly debate whether or not the new ones are worth it (I lean towards not), but the fact that you can't maybe do 30 in a 6 turn game is certainly not the reason why.

 godswildcard wrote:
So I may be late to the party, but can you use the +3” move AoF on an immolator using its vanguard move? Cause that’d be kinda nice if so...

Also, I think I’ve figured out my qualm with the Repressor, and I’m sure someone else has already mentioned it, but here goes:

I like the repressor. I really do, but I HATE that we are tied to a transport that doesn’t even get made anymore. We really either need to see the Repressor become the new plastic transport hotness of the Sororitas, but I have a feeling they won’t do that because Sisters already have two dedicated transports. Hopefully I’m wrong, but my playtesting results will mention this often.

They're easy enough to get now though, Shieldwolf minis now makes this fantastic "not-repressor" repressor: http://www.shieldwolfminiatures.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=171
Or alternatively, you can simply order 3D-printed parts of what FW used to make (topper, guns, and plow) from Shapeways from a couple sellers.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I think you are mixing up the 2? The 3" movement is "Hand of the Emperor" and its an AoF, Vanguard is the free movement before the game starts for Dominion Squads
Also AoF dont work on vehicles unless using the 3CP Stratagem, Doms Vanguard does work while they are inside a vehicle and only them.

Repressors are from FW, its up to FW if they want to make it again or not, it has nothing to do with GW.

Haven't some models made the transition from FW to becoming brought into the main GW plastic range in the past though?

 Sentionaut wrote:
Haven't some models made the transition from FW to becoming brought into the main GW plastic range in the past though?

Quite a few, iirc.

Does the sacred banner stratagem grant +1 to only the unit with the simulacrum imperialis or is also a 6" aura for a phase? I've heard it both ways now.

Edit: Nevermind. Found it. It's only on the unit with the banner. Lame.

 Sentionaut wrote:

 godswildcard wrote:
So I may be late to the party, but can you use the +3” move AoF on an immolator using its vanguard move? Cause that’d be kinda nice if so...

Also, I think I’ve figured out my qualm with the Repressor, and I’m sure someone else has already mentioned it, but here goes:

I like the repressor. I really do, but I HATE that we are tied to a transport that doesn’t even get made anymore. We really either need to see the Repressor become the new plastic transport hotness of the Sororitas, but I have a feeling they won’t do that because Sisters already have two dedicated transports. Hopefully I’m wrong, but my playtesting results will mention this often.

They're easy enough to get now though, Shieldwolf minis now makes this fantastic "not-repressor" repressor: http://www.shieldwolfminiatures.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=171
Or alternatively, you can simply order 3D-printed parts of what FW used to make (topper, guns, and plow) from Shapeways from a couple sellers.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I think you are mixing up the 2? The 3" movement is "Hand of the Emperor" and its an AoF, Vanguard is the free movement before the game starts for Dominion Squads
Also AoF dont work on vehicles unless using the 3CP Stratagem, Doms Vanguard does work while they are inside a vehicle and only them.

Repressors are from FW, its up to FW if they want to make it again or not, it has nothing to do with GW.

Haven't some models made the transition from FW to becoming brought into the main GW plastic range in the past though?

Only a few, and it was Bc GW wanted them in plastic and wasnt able to pre 2010, AKA Trygon, Tyrant, Custodes, etc...These were models that GW has rules for before FW.

FW only models as far hasnst yet other than the special box of he 30k plastic marines

In regards to Acts of Faith functioning like Command Points:
I like it, theoretically. The execution is just plain awful, but in theory it's cool:

1, nobody else has a similar mechanic, making Sisters play in a unique
2, it allows for, effectively, an army that generates twice as many Command Points without causing soup problems. You can get double flexibility out of Sisters, but you can't give that extra bonus to other armies
3, it allows for neat synergies between the two pools of abilities.

Unfortunately, the execution is just abysmal. What strategems do interact with Acts of Faith are either too weak, problematic, or they just give more Acts of Faith, which would be good except that the acts of faith are all also weak, randomly fail, andquickly get capped by limitations on usage per turn

I hate to be a complainer, but I was contemplating the Sisters of Battle Faction rules and come to the realization that Shield of Faith is really bad.

6+ Invulnerable Save: Outside of the few models that lack a 3+ Save, the Invulnerable Save only has impact with hit with a AP -4 (-5 If in Cover) attack, which are very uncommon and don't generally have very many attacks.

Deny the Witch on 1d6: We can only Deny the Witch when against WC 5 or less powers (are their any less that WC5?), if they roll a 5 and if we get a lucky 6.

Both of these abilities can be enhanced by Aura, Stratagems, and the like, but why should our core faction defensive ability be so bad that is is only useful when it is improved by other abilities?

Definitely something we should all point out in our feedback.