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Made in us
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Sioux Falls, SD

Quasistellar wrote:
did you guys notice the wording of his Chapter Master ability? It's another Cawl-like "re-roll hit rolls". Notice the lack of the word "failed". That's HUGE for negative to-hit modifiers.
nice catch! Gabe must be a little bit better at telling his subordinates what to do than every other chapter master.

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 p5freak wrote:
Its not a good trait. How many times is your BR infantry going to be attacked with S8+ weapons ??
Overcharging plasma?

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Sioux Falls, SD

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Its not a good trait. How many times is your BR infantry going to be attacked with S8+ weapons ??
Overcharging plasma?
especially against something like Terminators.

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Germany

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Its not a good trait. How many times is your BR infantry going to be attacked with S8+ weapons ??
Overcharging plasma?
especially against something like Terminators.


Good point. But loyalist termis arent good, so far.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 p5freak wrote:
The chief librarian stratagem says "...from their chosen discipline." That means they have a choice, to choose from at least two disciplines. Unless their discipline is named "their chosen". What i very much doubt


Basic marine powers and the vanguard marine powers
   
Made in us
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Sioux Falls, SD

 p5freak wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Its not a good trait. How many times is your BR infantry going to be attacked with S8+ weapons ??
Overcharging plasma?
especially against something like Terminators.


Good point. But loyalist termis arent good, so far.
It is also a godsend for basically all Primaris units. Being able to shrug plasma is great. There are also corner cases where it renders any +1 to wound on a S5, S6, or S7 weapon useless.

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Made in us
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Dallas area, TX

In general, the Trait isn't going to supplant any of the other Marine Traits in any meta. But arguably, that's a good thing for the game as a whole.
And the trait isn't THAT bad. Certainly makes Terminators/Primaris a bit more interesting vs Supercharged plasma.

We'll have to see if there are any other Relics and Stratagems that could make BRs interesting to play.

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/15 14:06:03


   
Made in us
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Sioux Falls, SD

 Galef wrote:
In general, the Trait isn't going to supplant any of the other Marine Traits in any meta. But arguably, that's a good thing for the game as a whole.
And the trait isn't THAT bad. Certainly makes Terminators/Primaris a bit more interesting vs Supercharged plasma.

We'll have to see if there are any other Relics and Stratagems that could make BRs interesting to play.

-
No other relics or Stratagems. Just one of each. But Chief Librarian combined with their Chapter Tactics actually yields a decent Psyker.

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Made in us
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Dallas area, TX

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 Galef wrote:
In general, the Trait isn't going to supplant any of the other Marine Traits in any meta. But arguably, that's a good thing for the game as a whole.
And the trait isn't THAT bad. Certainly makes Terminators/Primaris a bit more interesting vs Supercharged plasma.

We'll have to see if there are any other Relics and Stratagems that could make BRs interesting to play.

-
No other relics or Stratagems. Just one of each. But Chief Librarian combined with their Chapter Tactics actually yields a decent Psyker.
That's underwhelming considering you can just take him and 1 Troop in a Patrol and do a Battalion using a "better" Chapter Tactic.

-

   
Made in us
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Overall I like the flavor of this Index Astartes.

The chapter tactic is good, but not amazing. Very nice for keeping Primaris alive vs plasma, and for melee vs Chaos Marines VotLW. Gabriel Angelos is an absolute beast. The re-roll 1's for librarian on casting AND denying is amazing as well.

Now my only hope is that Iron Father coming out has similarly awesome rules for my Iron Hands.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Denison, Iowa

Does no one use power fists any more? That's a strength 8 weapon. Also custodes axes, thunder hammers, death guard weapons, etc.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Anyway, Gabe is faster than a regular Terminator and does the Terminator Leap from the DoW III trailer. I like this. Not a bad Terminator Chapter Master.

Actually, it's bad for chapter master, he pays +65 pts for chapter master upgrade when Shrike and Helbrecht pay like 20 on top of having better rules. His closest equivalent, Calgar in termie armour, costs 15 points more, all while giving you extra CP, better stats, halving damage taken, and vastly better gear (ranged attack for one) than middling combo power maul/thunder hammer. And Calgar doesn't see play that often. They could have done so much more and all they did was copy/pasting garbage sheet FW spat out in seconds...

My main issue is the fact that most of chapters with mediocre relic/stratagem/character/rules also have some upsides to balance it out. BR stuff is all niche of a niche with nothing universally good

 BoomWolf wrote:
I think people really underestimate just how powerful the trait is.
Forget the wound failing on 2s, that's mild. the psyker reroll of 1s is insane.

My TS are very, very jealous. this is much better that +6" range. heck, even if you count the immunity to smite price increases as part of the TS traits, they are STILL jelly-as this is MUCH better.

Your TS have psychic powers to use with that. BR only have mediocre SM table (unless new Codex adds new powers), they could have added new BR psychic power here to represent their combat planning but that would require effort. Also, to add insult to injury, your 'chief librarians' can cast more powers, while BR stratagem adds one power known. Big whoopeedoo.

 warboss wrote:
I don't play the current (or frankly last two editions) of 40k; is that chapter tactic relatively balanced compared with others assuming every marine gets it?

It's... kinda bad. It might see some use if you have primaris or terminators facing overcharged plasma/battle cannons/power fists. On 1W marines? Useless. On bikers/gravis? Useless. On dreadnoughts? Useless, unless enemy brought titan-grade weapons against them. Against massed small arms fire? Useless. It really should have been 1-3 like in both Knight books, then at least it would have noticeable effect in games.
   
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Sioux Falls, SD

Yes, but look at Gabe's Chapter Master ability. It is much better than regular Chapter Masters as it let's you reroll hits that would otherwise become misses through modifiers.

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 Irbis wrote:
 warboss wrote:
I don't play the current (or frankly last two editions) of 40k; is that chapter tactic relatively balanced compared with others assuming every marine gets it?

It's... kinda bad. It might see some use if you have primaris or terminators facing overcharged plasma/battle cannons/power fists. On 1W marines? Useless. On bikers/gravis? Useless. On dreadnoughts? Useless, unless enemy brought titan-grade weapons against them. Against massed small arms fire? Useless. It really should have been 1-3 like in both Knight books, then at least it would have noticeable effect in games.


Have they changed the wound rules this edition? I assume that's the case given your examples; I was operating under the possibly defunct condition that you wound on a 2+ with s6 weapons as in old editions. It seems from your example that it has changed maybe to double toughness/S8 in this case.

   
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 p5freak wrote:
BoomWolf wrote:I think people really underestimate just how powerful the trait is.
Forget the wound failing on 2s, that's mild. the psyker reroll of 1s is insane.

My TS are very, very jealous. this is much better that +6" range. heck, even if you count the immunity to smite price increases as part of the TS traits, they are STILL jelly-as this is MUCH better.


How do you know if their psychic powers are any good ? The BA ones are all crap, except two.

casvalremdeikun wrote:It's a good trait. Not mind-blowing. It makes the Blood Ravens a bit tankier to high strength weapons. And that Librarian reroll is pretty good too.


Its not a good trait. How many times is your BR infantry going to be attacked with S8+ weapons ?? Or your BR dreads by S14+ weapons ? That rarely going to happen. Any plus wound will not work, because it requires unmodified 2s.


+1 wound abilities?? Veterans of the Long War, Let the galaxy burn, all become nullified by this.
   
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Dallas area, TX

 cuda1179 wrote:
Does no one use power fists any more? That's a strength 8 weapon. Also custodes axes, thunder hammers, death guard weapons, etc.
This issue isn't that people don't use fists, or those other weapons you listed. This issue is that MELEE in general isn't viable enough to build your whole army around countering.
Even Marines are better off shooting those melee threats rather than engaging them in melee.
And funnily enough, this Tactic will make those melee weapons that much less viable than they are now.

But like I said, it's not a bad trait, it's just situational. Situational abilities will never be considered great. IMO, Salamanders have the most useful Marine trait since it occurs EVER time the unit shoots or fights. Raven Guard are considered better because -1 to hit is the hotness this edition.

-

   
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 Togusa wrote:


+1 wound abilities?? Veterans of the Long War, Let the galaxy burn, all become nullified by this.


Votlw is a stratagem, not an ability. BRs chapter tactic only works on weapon, or model abilities. E.g. some weapons always wound infantry on 2+. If you roll a 2 with that weapon it fails because of BRs chapter tactic. A legion trait that gives +1 to wound wouldnt work either, because its neither a weapon ability, nor a model ability. Let the galaxy burn only works on to hit rolls.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/15 16:20:16


 
   
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Pretty disappointed by this. The Crimson Fists release was better IMO.

 
   
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Across the Rubicon

I think the Blood Ravens Chapter Tactic is good, not great, and about where I would hope that White Dwarf rules are in terms of power. The rules are worthwhile enough for players that aren't overly concerned about squeezing out the most power from everything as to not get people denouncing GW as 'pay to win' needing to buy White Dwarf for the good rules. While at the same time, they are good enough to have some use (at least more than +1 Ld, and RF becomes Assault) and flavorful to arguably to one of the most well know chapters in the game (mostly by those that don't actually play the tabletop game but still).

   
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 Togusa wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
BoomWolf wrote:I think people really underestimate just how powerful the trait is.
Forget the wound failing on 2s, that's mild. the psyker reroll of 1s is insane.

My TS are very, very jealous. this is much better that +6" range. heck, even if you count the immunity to smite price increases as part of the TS traits, they are STILL jelly-as this is MUCH better.


How do you know if their psychic powers are any good ? The BA ones are all crap, except two.

casvalremdeikun wrote:It's a good trait. Not mind-blowing. It makes the Blood Ravens a bit tankier to high strength weapons. And that Librarian reroll is pretty good too.


Its not a good trait. How many times is your BR infantry going to be attacked with S8+ weapons ?? Or your BR dreads by S14+ weapons ? That rarely going to happen. Any plus wound will not work, because it requires unmodified 2s.


+1 wound abilities?? Veterans of the Long War, Let the galaxy burn, all become nullified by this.


Sort of, if they were wounding on a 3 prior to the strat sure, but it does Feth all on VoTLW bolter or auto gun fire.

It is pretty solid verse death watch venom rounds or whatever they are called.



This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/07/15 18:54:25


   
Made in pl
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 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Yes, but look at Gabe's Chapter Master ability. It is much better than regular Chapter Masters as it let's you reroll hits that would otherwise become misses through modifiers.

While this is not per se a bad point, I have weird feeling this will be wording of this ability in the next Codex SM. Or, that someone will complain to GW faq team and they will nerf it soon. In fact, I'd bet this won't be Angelos 'upside' for long and he will be level with others soon either way.

I don't know, I just don't have any faith in GW fixing issues with this IA, either that was pump and dump article, or they will not pay any attention to problems with BR rules and we'll see little to none corrections, especially going in the right direction with this so the rules will stay bad for the whole edition.

I'd love to be wrong and this being balanced to the next Codex (with maybe the chapter trait being good if SM will get new, ok psychic table, or if that new angel of death ability somehow synergises with it) but somehow, I won't be holding my breath waiting for it...

 Red Corsair wrote:

It is pretty solid verse death watch venom rounds or whatever they are called.

The problem is that DW also has kraken and vengeance rounds, so slight nerf to poison ammo will just make them yawn.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
I think the Blood Ravens Chapter Tactic is good, not great, and about where I would hope that White Dwarf rules are in terms of power. The rules are worthwhile enough for players that aren't overly concerned about squeezing out the most power from everything as to not get people denouncing GW as 'pay to win' needing to buy White Dwarf for the good rules. While at the same time, they are good enough to have some use (at least more than +1 Ld, and RF becomes Assault) and flavorful to arguably to one of the most well know chapters in the game (mostly by those that don't actually play the tabletop game but still).

How about players who just want to have something on par, or even slightly below par the existing traits? Is that 'pay to win' too?

You should be concerned about them having bad rules too, btw, because when GW sees no one uses the rules, they might just pull the plug on the whole thing (or because too many people complained about them, especially these new players you mentioned who might feel cheated by bad rules ruining their quite expensive buy-in into the game), and that will be all she wrote. If the rules were good, and feedback was encouraging, they are much more likely to add more flavor.

Also, funny you mention the other bad traits, because they all have things to keep them afloat. Good characters, stratagems, interesting side mechanics, access to good units, etc, etc. So far, every single thing about BR seems to be equally weak...

 warboss wrote:
Have they changed the wound rules this edition? I assume that's the case given your examples; I was operating under the possibly defunct condition that you wound on a 2+ with s6 weapons as in old editions. It seems from your example that it has changed maybe to double toughness/S8 in this case.

Yes, the table was stretched upward. So, S4 wounds T4 on 4+, S5-7 wounds on 3+, and S x2 (so in this case S8) on 2+. You need double S to go to 2+ now instead of old two step rule. This had ripple effect of nerfing a lot of weapons against T4 models, though plasma got special boosted mode (which has gets hot rule) to S8 to compensate.
   
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I gotta say the relic is completely dissappointing, relic in DOW2 cooked up dozens of intreasting relics etc. so when the time comes for GW to give blood ravens a relic.. they go with a bolt pistol (we'd never heard of before) with a background story that is utterly plain. I wasn't expecting a "lol stolen relic" but DOW2 had some fantastic contenders.

It's like GW wrote this specificly afraid to give them a decent trait.

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Across the Rubicon

 Irbis wrote:


 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
I think the Blood Ravens Chapter Tactic is good, not great, and about where I would hope that White Dwarf rules are in terms of power. The rules are worthwhile enough for players that aren't overly concerned about squeezing out the most power from everything as to not get people denouncing GW as 'pay to win' needing to buy White Dwarf for the good rules. While at the same time, they are good enough to have some use (at least more than +1 Ld, and RF becomes Assault) and flavorful to arguably to one of the most well know chapters in the game (mostly by those that don't actually play the tabletop game but still).

How about players who just want to have something on par, or even slightly below par the existing traits? Is that 'pay to win' too?

You should be concerned about them having bad rules too, btw, because when GW sees no one uses the rules, they might just pull the plug on the whole thing (or because too many people complained about them, especially these new players you mentioned who might feel cheated by bad rules ruining their quite expensive buy-in into the game), and that will be all she wrote. If the rules were good, and feedback was encouraging, they are much more likely to add more flavor.

Also, funny you mention the other bad traits, because they all have things to keep them afloat. Good characters, stratagems, interesting side mechanics, access to good units, etc, etc. So far, every single thing about BR seems to be equally weak...


I happen to think that the Blood Raven stuff is on par or slightly below most marine traits.

At the same time, I don't really have an issue with subfactions largely being a different color of whatever either. So if GW does decide to pull them from their games, it isn't bothering me. I have a Legion II geneseed Ultima founding chapter I am painting up. They don't have anything already. Besides, I don't really think it is possible to have as many subfactions as 40k does and for the specials rules of them be relatively equal anyways. Just like anything, only handful of options will ever be 'best'. It just the nature of these kind of things. More options generally means more false choices creating more white noise in the rules if all you are after is the most effective.

I think these rules are good enough standard Games Workshop style of playing their games. Not nearly good enough for someone wanting to do well in a tournament, but fine for a couple buddies, or friendly people, to put together a game to have a good time. Which is really I expect out of GW game. I don't ever expect White Dwarf rules additions to change the power gamer landscape. In fact, I think they largely added so players can spice things up a bit with little of extra flavor and intend not to affect anyone's meta. Kroot in Kill Team aren't very good solo and not much better aligned with Tau, the Blood Raven rules aren't great, but they good enough to see some use most games and I don't expect that Daemons in Kill Team are going to revolutionize the meta. And I am fine with that. You can very much say I am one the players that allows the game to be in the shoddy condition it is. And you would be right. I came to 40k after playing several other mini wargames most from GW alums, and I would argue all better games. I didn't starting playing GW games because of good rules. I started playing them because they have easy to paint models, lore I find interesting and didn't want to bother proselytizing other games anymore. I find them fun enough so long as you don't treat them as SRS BSNSS. Which I definitely don't.

Tell you what, when I get my Primaris only army all painted up, I will use the Blood Ravens rules for the remainder of 2019. That is how much it doesn't bother me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/15 21:27:29


   
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 Irbis wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
I think people really underestimate just how powerful the trait is.
Forget the wound failing on 2s, that's mild. the psyker reroll of 1s is insane.

My TS are very, very jealous. this is much better that +6" range. heck, even if you count the immunity to smite price increases as part of the TS traits, they are STILL jelly-as this is MUCH better.

Your TS have psychic powers to use with that. BR only have mediocre SM table (unless new Codex adds new powers), they could have added new BR psychic power here to represent their combat planning but that would require effort. Also, to add insult to injury, your 'chief librarians' can cast more powers, while BR stratagem adds one power known. Big whoopeedoo.


Mate, smite.
Smite is enough.

TS only good measure is being good at spamming smite from 3 HQs, and the BR would do it even better. mathematically speaking, your first smite would be a HELL lot better, your second smite still better, your third about as good and only on the forth you see a real drop. four libbies is being rather redundant in spell selection anyway.
And Obscuration has some good spells in Scryer's Gaze, Shrouding, Mind Raid and Tenebrous Curse. The marine basic powers Might Of Heroes and Null Zone are pretty decent.

The stratagem lets you know one extra power, and deny one extra power in each phase.
Each of them is a warlord trait for the TS, the BR gets them both on a CP on any libby they choose. It's no must-have at any capacity, but its not trash either.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
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 Irbis wrote:
 warboss wrote:
Have they changed the wound rules this edition? I assume that's the case given your examples; I was operating under the possibly defunct condition that you wound on a 2+ with s6 weapons as in old editions. It seems from your example that it has changed maybe to double toughness/S8 in this case.

Yes, the table was stretched upward. So, S4 wounds T4 on 4+, S5-7 wounds on 3+, and S x2 (so in this case S8) on 2+. You need double S to go to 2+ now instead of old two step rule. This had ripple effect of nerfing a lot of weapons against T4 models, though plasma got special boosted mode (which has gets hot rule) to S8 to compensate.


Thanks, that does make a big difference in the utility. I was operating under outdated assumptions from earlier editions.

   
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Anyone defending the Chapter Tactic as even "good" clearly didn't read the Chapter Tactic.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Anyone defending the Chapter Tactic as even "good" clearly didn't read the Chapter Tactic.


Anyone not understanding how good this tactic really is, is obviously not used to playing psykers.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
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 BoomWolf wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Anyone defending the Chapter Tactic as even "good" clearly didn't read the Chapter Tactic.


Anyone not understanding how good this tactic really is, is obviously not used to playing psykers.


or just didn't want to feel like their only good choice was to take a BR supreme command and then something else for their foot soldiers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/16 03:41:44


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Sheep Loveland

Oh noes, this chapter tactic isn't immediately spammable into my existing list with very little imput and as such isn't considered top tier.

Dakka in a nutshell.

Look, this trait may not be a stupendously good one, but for certs in builds or armies it's great. I play a lot of Primaris, so causing plasma to wound me on a 3+ is a godsend. The Librarian buffed from this is pretty darn tasty too.
Don't get me wrong. Could it have been better? Yes. But let's be real here, I'm glad the way it is and not rediculous that required FAQ's/nerfs to sort out.

Hopefully we will continue to receive many more articles like this in the next few months, because verity is the spice of life!

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 BoomWolf wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Anyone defending the Chapter Tactic as even "good" clearly didn't read the Chapter Tactic.


Anyone not understanding how good this tactic really is, is obviously not used to playing psykers.


The problem I have with the trait, is, that whilst the re-roll 1’s is pretty nice, it’s likely only going to be in effect on 2 models tops, in your army – even when playing pure Marines. There is currently no reason to spam different types of Librarian when you have Captains and Lieutenants hanging around.
As for smite spam, you’re then contending with the fact that you suffer the +1 to cast penalty and you’re psykers don’t have invuln saves outside of those in Terminator armour.
   
 
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