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 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I mean, it's not THAT crazy of a concept for GW to be slowly making oldmarines unappealing so that EVENTUALLY they can phase them out with the justification that "they aren't selling well"

The issue I see with people on either "side" of this debate is that people claiming oldmarines aren't being phased out thinks it's a "case-closed" just because GW throws the occasional bone towards an oldmarine unit, while at the same time, people claiming oldmarines are getting mothballed keep crying out "see, see, GW only care about Primaris" every time a new Primaris kit is released.

It isn't going to be that black and white. Personally, I absolutely think oldmarines are going to get phased out. But I don't think it's happening anytime soon. Probably by 10th edition at the earliest, but it is going to happen since it just makes sense.

-

Marines have a lot of good kits. Many of them recent.

This is a list of NEW bones for ONLY old marines:

Point cut to Tacs, Dread, Hunter, base Land Raider, WW, Stormtalon, Land Speeders, Grav guns, Grav cannons, MM, Dread CCWs
Drop pods deepstrike
Double tap TFC & WW
Grav cannon wound and damage
5+ mortal wound from each JP model
+1 to hit / +1 to wound for Hunters/Stalkers
+1 to hit for terminators
3++/4++ for bikes and speeders
scout bike mines

And the NEW bones for ONLY Primaris

rocket pods to D2
+1W to grav
3 shots to auto bolt
D2 to stalker bolt
unmod 6s to hit auto wound in fight phase
target characters with intercessors
double double tap bolt rifles
repulsor D3 MW missile
autohit with auto bolt rifles

That's just the Astartes book and all I care to look at right now. I'm sure I've missed a bunch. There's plenty to be had for old marines and people are nuts if they think primaris outshine them in every way.

….And? I don't understand your point. Yes GW is continuing to support oldmarines with rules. That's good and appreciated. I hope and expect them to continue to do so for a while
Are you saying that is evidence that oldmarines are going to continue to be supported so long as GW exists?

My point is that due to the lack of MODEL support for old marines, it is only a matter of time before those "good kits" start to show their age.
if GW doesn't continue this crazy balancing act between good rules for Oldmarines and good rules for Primaris, it just seems inevitable that within the next few YEARS the sales of certain Oldmarine kits will start getting phased out.
It will not be an overnight process, but it doesn't seem sustainable to continue supporting both lines forever.

And GW seems to be moving the story along recently. It's only logical for the story to progress in a fashion that OldMarines start showing up less and less in the plot as mostly Primaris are being created and many Oldmarines are getting upgraded

-

 Crimson wrote:
I assume that the reason why the Primaris cannot use drop pods is that there will eventually be a new type of a drop pod for them.

Yes the Primaris deep striking bunker!

This is all I need/want is a deepstiking piece of terrain lol

I don't know about overpowered, but I think it looks reasonable if you want to go down an armour skew, probably Iron Hands type list.

You probably take one with the orbital bombardment. Is it guaranteed damage? No, but it certainly has potential. Yes in theory everyone just doesn't stand next to each other - but I play on various tables where there are only so many LOS blocking terrain peices. So its often tempting to hide your critical stuff behind it first turn in case you go second and it promptly gets shot to peices. Sure there will be that time you roll a 1 for the radius - but sometimes you will get 6". You don't need to inflict many mortal wounds to make it worthwhile.

The assault vehicle rule isn't great for assaulting things - but it is useful for throwing units forward, and getting board control. Now you may not want to do this against certain armies but its still a potential advantage for claiming objectives and generally strangling an opponent.

I mean the IH variant with 11 wounds, T7, 3+,4++,6+++? 14" movement on the top line. Stormbolters and a stubber? Its probably not enough dakka for that points cost - but its not going to be inconsequential to shift. Potentially save some points and get more damage with the ironhail skytalon array but it would need some testing. I feel a 4++ is good. Potentially you eat up a lot of fire from an opponent chasing first strike.

In conclusion - I'm not convinced its great "as a transport" - but almost no transports are. IMO at least a Wave Serpent isn't good (while considerably more expensive) because its a great way of shifting bodies around. Its good because while serpent shield and Alaitoc is up its very annoying to kill, and is fast with flying so you can get where you want and throw out that 2+ smite into a critical target. Then you charge something to stop it shooting. I don't think anyone goes "3 shuriken cannons (or 2 and catapults)? nerf!"

 fraser1191 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I assume that the reason why the Primaris cannot use drop pods is that there will eventually be a new type of a drop pod for them.

Yes the Primaris deep striking bunker!

This is all I need/want is a deepstiking piece of terrain lol

How about a psychic power that moves terrain ... 7.5 edd....meet 8.5 edd.

 Galef wrote:
….And? I don't understand your point. Yes GW is continuing to support oldmarines with rules. That's good and appreciated. I hope and expect them to continue to do so for a while
Are you saying that is evidence that oldmarines are going to continue to be supported so long as GW exists?

My point is that due to the lack of MODEL support for old marines, it is only a matter of time before those "good kits" start to show their age.
if GW doesn't continue this crazy balancing act between good rules for Oldmarines and good rules for Primaris, it just seems inevitable that within the next few YEARS the sales of certain Oldmarine kits will start getting phased out.
It will not be an overnight process, but it doesn't seem sustainable to continue supporting both lines forever.

And GW seems to be moving the story along recently. It's only logical for the story to progress in a fashion that OldMarines start showing up less and less in the plot as mostly Primaris are being created and many Oldmarines are getting upgraded

-

What old marine kit would be rational for them to make?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
….And? I don't understand your point. Yes GW is continuing to support oldmarines with rules. That's good and appreciated. I hope and expect them to continue to do so for a while
Are you saying that is evidence that oldmarines are going to continue to be supported so long as GW exists?

My point is that due to the lack of MODEL support for old marines, it is only a matter of time before those "good kits" start to show their age.
if GW doesn't continue this crazy balancing act between good rules for Oldmarines and good rules for Primaris, it just seems inevitable that within the next few YEARS the sales of certain Oldmarine kits will start getting phased out.
It will not be an overnight process, but it doesn't seem sustainable to continue supporting both lines forever.

And GW seems to be moving the story along recently. It's only logical for the story to progress in a fashion that OldMarines start showing up less and less in the plot as mostly Primaris are being created and many Oldmarines are getting upgraded

-

What old marine kit would be rational for them to make?

If they where to continue to support old marines long term then updated scouts would be nice. Would be nice, if a bit niche, to have a Crusader Squad kit that could also double for bolt pistol + chainsword scouts and jump packless assault marines (for non BT players). The best answer though would be a plastic thunderhawk

Tyel wrote:


You probably take one with the orbital bombardment. Is it guaranteed damage? No, but it certainly has potential. Yes in theory everyone just doesn't stand next to each other - but I play on various tables where there are only so many LOS blocking terrain peices. So its often tempting to hide your critical stuff behind it first turn in case you go second and it promptly gets shot to peices. Sure there will be that time you roll a 1 for the radius - but sometimes you will get 6". You don't need to inflict many mortal wounds to make it worthwhile.

I the issue I see with this is I can just as easily take a squad of Infiltrators with the comms array marine if I want that and I fill a Troop slot in the process. This might me a little more expensive, but I think I will get more mileage from the Infiltrators than the Impulsor.

As for hiding behind it, being a grav vehicle makes it hard to fully hide something on occasion.

As for using it to protect eliminators, I like using the Repulsor Executioner for that since neither unit is intended to leave the back line and it might be nice to have the Las Fusils on hand to mop up what the Executioner couldn't. That's on top of the idea that if my opponent is shooting at my Eliminators early game they either made bad mistake or I did.

Again, I am not 100% sure how I am going to make use of it as I kinda had plans in place without it and can't see where spending points on it gets me further along most of the time. Once I start fielding it, I might have a better impression. Though, only planning on having 1 may also be an issue.

Mechanised shooting infantry in vehicles is the coolest way of playing the game (Breachers in devilfish FTW) so the Impulsor as cinical as it is for being such special snowflake with those rules other vehicles should have, is pretty nice to have going forward.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I assume that the reason why the Primaris cannot use drop pods is that there will eventually be a new type of a drop pod for them.

Yes the Primaris deep striking bunker!

This is all I need/want is a deepstiking piece of terrain lol

How about a psychic power that moves terrain ... 7.5 edd....meet 8.5 edd.

I alway thought it was a funny power but always afraid that one "breaks everything he touches" friend would use it


Automatically Appended Next Post:


Characters?

It's probably one of the best transports in the game, it's just that any primaris unit that wants to be up close already has the option to. This is absolutely subject to change as GW adds new models to the line

If they could carry around models in gravis, then they would be Much better.

 Galef wrote:
I mean, it's not THAT crazy of a concept for GW to be slowly making oldmarines unappealing so that EVENTUALLY they can phase them out with the justification that "they aren't selling well"

The issue I see with people on either "side" of this debate is that people claiming oldmarines aren't being phased out thinks it's a "case-closed" just because GW throws the occasional bone towards an oldmarine unit, while at the same time, people claiming oldmarines are getting mothballed keep crying out "see, see, GW only care about Primaris" every time a new Primaris kit is released.

It isn't going to be that black and white. Personally, I absolutely think oldmarines are going to get phased out. But I don't think it's happening anytime soon. Probably by 10th edition at the earliest, but it is going to happen since it just makes sense.

-

I don't see a reason why they wouldn't just keep producing (and thus supporting) the plastic kits until the molds break.

 Galef wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Actually they'd make more money if it was the other way.

There are Primaris only players who aren't buying the old vehicles because they aren't compatible, and visa versa.

I really don't think we are doing the same math. They want to sell new stuff to current players. Sure, they could miss out on new players buying into old transports. However, how many cheap rhinos could you find ? Tons, same for land raiders I don't think the new influx of primaris only players really out number all the old timers who have maybe dozens of these marine transports already, or the cheap and numerous availability of these old transports after decades in circulation. I had a longer response typed out but honestly, if you don't see it, I'll just have to content myself in my conspiracy theory, with many others I'm sure.

I'm with Ishagu on this. With the Matched Play restriction on Drop Pods removed, GW would sell TONS of Drop Pods if they could hold even just 5 PRIMARIS models.
They only reason for this not being a thing is because GW wants us to buy their over priced Impulsor instead

-

Yeah, you're actually in agreement with me, thats my point. They disallow the old transports to push sales of the new units. He's saying, they'd make more money the other way. my point is there are tons of drop pods already in the wild you either already own or could get cheap. They purely are pushing this you can't use the others transports to force buying new kits and not ones you can find everywhere used or the cheap. I think they are keenly aware of the discount and second hand market.

No, that's not right. More people will buy the new AND old units of there was no limitation.

Can you not understand that GW plans releases and books years in advance? They are likely planning on seperating the ranges in future.

We obviously can't confirm or deny that GW restricted the transports for sales we can only speculate. It could be for sales just as equally as it could be for balancing purposes.

I've said this before, GW is pretty inept when it comes to introducing new units. I can equally make the argument that it's a balance issue because they dont know how old units interact with the new units.

There's a pretty recent example of GW not being that great at rule writing

GW doesn’t write its rules for balance, it writes them for effect and atmosphere.

It’s deliberate, and not an oversight, as it has been pointed out to them on numerous occasions. It’s extremely egregious for the Impulsor, as it is open-topped and makes no sense that oldMarines couldn’t be placed in the open hold.

Luckily, it’s something for my own games I can completely ignore. I’d love to pick up a pair of these models, but GW has simply priced me out of purchasing them.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

What old marine kit would be rational for them to make?

Terminators and Scouts would be my first vote. Updating Tacticals etc. to match the Chaos guys would also make sense. While they're at it, they can re-design the Storm Raven.

 fraser1191 wrote:
We obviously can't confirm or deny that GW restricted the transports for sales we can only speculate. It could be for sales just as equally as it could be for balancing purposes.

I've said this before, GW is pretty inept when it comes to introducing new units. I can equally make the argument that it's a balance issue because they dont know how old units interact with the new units.

There's a pretty recent example of GW not being that great at rule writing

It is total ineptitude. When the Tyranids codex was released over a year ago. Literally 50% of the models were out of stock online for the first month or 2 after it's release. Plus leading up to the codex. Yes - they have some supply issues to do with power at their main modeling center BUT a smart company finds ways around these problems and doesn't just say..."oh sorry...you can't buy the things you want to buy right now." In the end - if they were gonna sell 100,000 impuslors in the first week of it's release a month ago they will probably still sell about the same amount in 2 weeks from now...It's just absolutely nutts they make us wait when these models have been ready to go since the beginning.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

What old marine kit would be rational for them to make?

Terminators and Scouts would be my first vote. Updating Tacticals etc. to match the Chaos guys would also make sense. While they're at it, they can re-design the Storm Raven.

Terms already have some realistically new kits. That term kit that comps with a termy captain is quite a deal too. Scouts? Who cares...Everyone has a ton of scouts already - I wont buy more.

I'd like a new dread kit or contemptor kit. That can make any dread.

GW could do to old Marines what they did with IG. Bring over some of the vehicles they already have on Forgeworld to the main codex and release plastic kits.

 Ishagu wrote:
No, that's not right. More people will buy the new AND old units of there was no limitation.

Can you not understand that GW plans releases and books years in advance? They are likely planning on seperating the ranges in future.

That is in fact right, as just speaking for myself I have 5 drop pods, and many many rhinos and a few land raiders. If the primaris could take any of them, they would. If hellblasters could somehow find the room to sit in a pod, they would. You'd have little incentive to pick up impulsors aside from like of the model, same goes for Reupulsor aside from if you want the extra firepower. You can find all those old kits cheaply or have a ton if you've played for awhile.

Can you not understand that yes they make the releases in advance but maybe they made decisions based on pushing you to buy new over old kits ? You seem to be in this strange thought process that this business that doesn't give a fig about any of us is letting anything but sales drive this decision.

Yet again just speaking for myself, I wouldn't have purchased even 1 repulsor if I could have had a land raider carry primaris marines, or even my corvus which can carry bikes, jump packs and terminators could somehow find the room for some primaris to squeeze on in. It's, like most of their decisions, one made with the bottom line in mind not customer good will. They don't have any grand design of balance in mind and if you think that somehow you've missed all their talk of how they don't care about balance or design paradigms.

Just like I can't prove this is their goal, aside from corporate greed which is easy enough to discern. You can't prove they ever plan to split the marine range at least not more than any can prove they'll squat old marines. As they are amazingly vague on those intentions. All you have is knowing the nature of the beast.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

What old marine kit would be rational for them to make?

Terminators and Scouts would be my first vote. Updating Tacticals etc. to match the Chaos guys would also make sense. While they're at it, they can re-design the Storm Raven.

Terms already have some realistically new kits. That term kit that comps with a termy captain is quite a deal too. Scouts? Who cares...Everyone has a ton of scouts already - I wont buy more.

I'd like a new dread kit or contemptor kit. That can make any dread.

Current Terminator kit is from 4th edition, and could be much improved. Same with Scouts.

People have bought Primaris to rebuild Classic units. New and improved models will sell, people will buy replacements.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

What old marine kit would be rational for them to make?

Terminators and Scouts would be my first vote. Updating Tacticals etc. to match the Chaos guys would also make sense. While they're at it, they can re-design the Storm Raven.

Terms already have some realistically new kits. That term kit that comps with a termy captain is quite a deal too. Scouts? Who cares...Everyone has a ton of scouts already - I wont buy more.

I'd like a new dread kit or contemptor kit. That can make any dread.

Current Terminator kit is from 4th edition, and could be much improved. Same with Scouts.

People have bought Primaris to rebuild Classic units. New and improved models will sell, people will buy replacements.

And remember people come into this hobby all the time, you might not buy scouts but others will. partiuclarly now that they've confirmed scouts are used by primaris armies. If I wanted to say.. make a 10th company theme'd army I'd end up with scouts. And this isn't just some weird idea, it's an idea GW has actually SUGGESTED on WarCom today

I reckon for a 97pt model (with Shield Dome) its a fairly decent transport for a small strike squad

BrianDavion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

What old marine kit would be rational for them to make?

Terminators and Scouts would be my first vote. Updating Tacticals etc. to match the Chaos guys would also make sense. While they're at it, they can re-design the Storm Raven.

Terms already have some realistically new kits. That term kit that comps with a termy captain is quite a deal too. Scouts? Who cares...Everyone has a ton of scouts already - I wont buy more.

I'd like a new dread kit or contemptor kit. That can make any dread.

Current Terminator kit is from 4th edition, and could be much improved. Same with Scouts.

People have bought Primaris to rebuild Classic units. New and improved models will sell, people will buy replacements.

And remember people come into this hobby all the time, you might not buy scouts but others will. partiuclarly now that they've confirmed scouts are used by primaris armies. If I wanted to say.. make a 10th company theme'd army I'd end up with scouts. And this isn't just some weird idea, it's an idea GW has actually SUGGESTED on WarCom today

Well I would say re touching the scout plastic kit would be an excellent idea as they are used in the primaris process and old marine process. Seems like a logical step as while the current plastic scouts aren't awful they could really do with a new kits and look at in regard to maybe a better combi kit with some new options just because choices.

AngryAngel80 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

What old marine kit would be rational for them to make?

Terminators and Scouts would be my first vote. Updating Tacticals etc. to match the Chaos guys would also make sense. While they're at it, they can re-design the Storm Raven.

Terms already have some realistically new kits. That term kit that comps with a termy captain is quite a deal too. Scouts? Who cares...Everyone has a ton of scouts already - I wont buy more.

I'd like a new dread kit or contemptor kit. That can make any dread.

Current Terminator kit is from 4th edition, and could be much improved. Same with Scouts.

People have bought Primaris to rebuild Classic units. New and improved models will sell, people will buy replacements.

And remember people come into this hobby all the time, you might not buy scouts but others will. partiuclarly now that they've confirmed scouts are used by primaris armies. If I wanted to say.. make a 10th company theme'd army I'd end up with scouts. And this isn't just some weird idea, it's an idea GW has actually SUGGESTED on WarCom today

Well I would say re touching the scout plastic kit would be an excellent idea as they are used in the primaris process and old marine process. Seems like a logical step as while the current plastic scouts aren't awful they could really do with a new kits and look at in regard to maybe a better combi kit with some new options just because choices.

I agree, but it's not entirely nesscary, Marines get plenty of releases even without retouching old kits.

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Oh really? Let's say I'm running an Iron Hands or Ultramarines army.

I don't see any movement shenanigans that can get my Librarian to cast null zone on a target 30" away on turn 1.

This is a unique use of an Impulsor. Also in general it's a nice profile with OK Dakka for the cost.

Ultramarines have the Rapid Deployment Strat. Makes it a lot easier to get closer along with two other units. Neato, isn't it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
That's not as good though, is it? It's not 29+D6" effect on turn 1

There's already tons of movement shenanigans that cost very little CP, and heck there's even Warlord traits too. Why would you spend 100 points on something with that little use that can go to maybe a TFC, when the CP are a good resource to use instead?

what If I'm building a Ultima founding chapter?

what if I just want to run a mech heavy list because those are fun and don't particularly have the points to run a half dozen repulsors?

You going out of your way to not include Jump Pack HQs has no bearing on this conversation, sorry.

no it has bearing dude, you don't get to tell people how to play their army, fact is 40k isn't about monobuilds etc. it's about giving you choice and intreasting ways to play. not everyone wants to sue the same 3 or 4 optimized units. you asked what use this could have, it's been answered.

And you not choosing to use the better Librarian is none of my concern. It's a bad justification for the vehicle, period, and to use "what if I don't wanna" is just beyond silly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I mean, it's not THAT crazy of a concept for GW to be slowly making oldmarines unappealing so that EVENTUALLY they can phase them out with the justification that "they aren't selling well"

The issue I see with people on either "side" of this debate is that people claiming oldmarines aren't being phased out thinks it's a "case-closed" just because GW throws the occasional bone towards an oldmarine unit, while at the same time, people claiming oldmarines are getting mothballed keep crying out "see, see, GW only care about Primaris" every time a new Primaris kit is released.

It isn't going to be that black and white. Personally, I absolutely think oldmarines are going to get phased out. But I don't think it's happening anytime soon. Probably by 10th edition at the earliest, but it is going to happen since it just makes sense.

-

Marines have a lot of good kits. Many of them recent.

This is a list of NEW bones for ONLY old marines:

Point cut to Tacs, Dread, Hunter, base Land Raider, WW, Stormtalon, Land Speeders, Grav guns, Grav cannons, MM, Dread CCWs
Drop pods deepstrike
Double tap TFC & WW
Grav cannon wound and damage
5+ mortal wound from each JP model
+1 to hit / +1 to wound for Hunters/Stalkers
+1 to hit for terminators
3++/4++ for bikes and speeders
scout bike mines

And the NEW bones for ONLY Primaris

rocket pods to D2
+1W to grav
3 shots to auto bolt
D2 to stalker bolt
unmod 6s to hit auto wound in fight phase
target characters with intercessors
double double tap bolt rifles
repulsor D3 MW missile
autohit with auto bolt rifles

That's just the Astartes book and all I care to look at right now. I'm sure I've missed a bunch. There's plenty to be had for old marines and people are nuts if they think primaris outshine them in every way.

Think about which old style Power Armor units those buffs apply to though.

Marin wrote:
It looks pretty strong to me, i think people are underestimating it a lot.
Fast flying Transport that can drop units on the fly, with invulnerable save, -2 to charge and the abillity to hit the backline with mortal wounds.
For 107 pts you can give him some anti infantry shooting with the stubber and frag grenade launcher.
It gives alot of utility and there will be very little games you wont get value from it.
I will rate it very very good, maybe OP only IH.

this seems to be reasonable.

the orbital bombardment should be nasty.
just so flexible...

a good purchase, the rhino for the 42nd mil.

i will be buying exactly zero, however.
flying marine tanks with AA and killa force fields?

heresy. heresy. shame .... shame.... repent!