Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

That's the way blast weapons worked back in the day - one hit on one thing.

The reason that didn't make much sense is because against bigger things, a blast should do more damage. For example, a Leman Russ shell vs a Carnifex should be more effective than a Leman Russ shell vs a Gaunt.

Leman Russes in the lore are described as "disembowling" Squiggoths in a single shot (e.g. the War of Armageddon series), but back in the day when they did one hit, they did... 1 hit. There was deep incongruity between the Leman Russ's capability against single targets in the fluff vs in the game.

It got worse with Baneblades. Shooting at a Baneblade with a single blast weapon meant that the baneblade ate the entire energy of the shell (since a direct hit meant you were not likely to hit anything else), but suffers no difference than hitting a Gaunt who barely takes up any space at all.

EDIT:
As always, the 4th edition solution was quite elegant: you could make the center of the blast be a strong hit (e.g. strength 10) but have the surrounding hits be at half strength (rounded up). That meant it was very effective against single targets.

In 8th you could say:
Against single model units, 1 hit with Str x2
Against bigger units, more hits. Simples.

Eh, I wouldn't say they were terribly effective in 4E against single targets, they were just more effective if you landed a solid hit than if you deviated. A battlecannon was still only ever doing 1 hit and 1 wound/damage table roll max to a single model unless it's T was low enough to suffer Instant Death. Hitting a Carnifex with the center of the blast just meant you wounded on a 2+ (S8 vs T6) instead of a 6+ (S4 vs T6).

I'm ok with the idea of single models being hit multiple times by blast weapons in theory (representing either eating the full blast power, taking multiple hits from rebounding shockwaves or multiple different bits of shrapnel, etc), but, much like vehicle rules themselves, GW's never quite nailed rules for blast weapons in a way that wasn't odd in some way.

In 2nd Ed a blast hit every section of the vehicle it touched, so a 2" radius blast (Multimelta in those days) could easily hit the Hull, Weapon, and Tracks of a Land Raider, rolling hit results against all three.

Sorry if I missed it, but a d3 is actually a d6 read differently. So when they say "a 1 or 2 rolled on a d6 counts as a three" I see the d3 weapon getting two shots, not three.

You are to treat the 1-2 as a 3 on the d6. When you roll a "3" on the d6 for a d3 weapon, what does that count as?

A "2"

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Sorry if I missed it, but a d3 is actually a d6 read differently. So when they say "a 1 or 2 rolled on a d6 counts as a three" I see the d3 weapon getting two shots, not three.

You are to treat the 1-2 as a 3 on the d6. When you roll a "3" on the d6 for a d3 weapon, what does that count as?

A "2"

The rule as released on the website says if you target a unit with 6-10 models with a Blast Weapon, you always get a minimum of 3 attacks. Rules as written, this doesn't matter whether you have D3, D6, or 4D6 shots. You just always get *at least* 3 shots. In which case your D3 Blast weapon would get 3 shots when targetting any unit with 6+ models.

This seems like... a rather odd system though, so its probably worth waiting on say seeing the full rules rather than loading up on... idk, Dark Scythe equipped Voidravens or something.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Sorry if I missed it, but a d3 is actually a d6 read differently. So when they say "a 1 or 2 rolled on a d6 counts as a three" I see the d3 weapon getting two shots, not three.

You are to treat the 1-2 as a 3 on the d6. When you roll a "3" on the d6 for a d3 weapon, what does that count as?

A "2"

Except it doesn't say "The minimum result on die is 3", it says your minimum attacks are 3.

So d3 weapons benefit a ton, d6 a decent amount, and 3d3 not at all.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Sorry if I missed it, but a d3 is actually a d6 read differently. So when they say "a 1 or 2 rolled on a d6 counts as a three" I see the d3 weapon getting two shots, not three.

You are to treat the 1-2 as a 3 on the d6. When you roll a "3" on the d6 for a d3 weapon, what does that count as?

A "2"

That's not how any of this works. That isn't how a D3 is defined in the rules. The rule cares about the result of the roll, not what the dice reads.

Something I am also curious about regarding weapons with multiple D3/D6 as shotcounts is if they will differentiate between weapon systems were this comes from multiple projectiles being fired (for example IG Wyvern, Macharius Battlecannon) and those were it seems to represent a bigger blast (for example Shadowsword). So in a sense if they reword between 2D6 and 2 x D6 to account for that.
On a fluff level it would make sense that each of the Wyverns 4 mortars would put min 3 shots against 6+ models each, but on a crunch level it would make it's buff even more extreme.

We will have to see what they do. The Wyvern is the most extreme case. 4d6 means the Blast rule has no impact on units of 6-10 models (since 4 is greater than 3). However, 24 attacks when the unit is 11+ models is crazy. Will they massively bump up the points value of the Wyvern to account for this or do some other alteration to make it less mental?

 alextroy wrote:
We will have to see what they do. The Wyvern is the most extreme case. 4d6 means the Blast rule has no impact on units of 6-10 models (since 4 is greater than 3). However, 24 attacks when the unit is 11+ models is crazy. Will they massively bump up the points value of the Wyvern to account for this or do some other alteration to make it less mental?

I think they will likely increase the points, but I think there is a strong chance that they might reduce the number of shots from 4d6 too. 3d6 seems a more sensible number, but that is hard to marry up with the fact that there are 4 separate barrels. 24 attacks seems an awful lot though.

This really would have made more sense as a sliding scale. Min 3 at 6-10, Min 6 or maximum, whichever is lower at 11-15, Min 9 or maximum, whichever is lower at 16- 20 and min 12 or max etc. at 21+. That way nothing goes insane, whilst still being a big benefit. Exact break points and numbers could vary, but you get the idea.

I think wyverns are going to be this odd "that guy" take and a woe of internet forums rather than reality.

Because okay, 24 shots into 11+ Orks could be horrendous (depending on the points of everything).
But on average 14 shots into say 5-10 Primaris getting cover? Enjoy your one wound.
If Primaris are setting the meta rather than Orks (see the last 12 months), you probably just won't see Wyverns (although having a bit of non-LOS shooting is usually a good idea.)

The real issue is that given these rules I don't think you can avoid this overpowered/crap dichotomy just by points.

But they could always change the rules when guard get a new codex.

Drager wrote:
This really would have made more sense as a sliding scale. Min 3 at 6-10, Min 6 or maximum, whichever is lower at 11-15, Min 9 or maximum, whichever is lower at 16- 20 and min 12 or max etc. at 21+. That way nothing goes insane, whilst still being a big benefit. Exact break points and numbers could vary, but you get the idea.

I agree 100%. I think I said this same thing earlier in this thread. I don't understand why it goes 3 min hit straight to max hits, when a scale makes way more sense.

 xeen wrote:

Drager wrote:
This really would have made more sense as a sliding scale. Min 3 at 6-10, Min 6 or maximum, whichever is lower at 11-15, Min 9 or maximum, whichever is lower at 16- 20 and min 12 or max etc. at 21+. That way nothing goes insane, whilst still being a big benefit. Exact break points and numbers could vary, but you get the idea.

I agree 100%. I think I said this same thing earlier in this thread. I don't understand why it goes 3 min hit straight to max hits, when a scale makes way more sense.

Or even something like +1 per dice rolled for shots, up to the maximum number of shots, for every up to 5 models in the target unit after the first 5. (So 0-5/+0, 6-10/+1, 11-15/+2)
So you're bumping up the minimum, keeping the random nature, and making the maximum a bit more likely the larger the target unit is. Bit more thinking involved perhaps, so maybe that's too hard.

 xeen wrote:

Drager wrote:
This really would have made more sense as a sliding scale. Min 3 at 6-10, Min 6 or maximum, whichever is lower at 11-15, Min 9 or maximum, whichever is lower at 16- 20 and min 12 or max etc. at 21+. That way nothing goes insane, whilst still being a big benefit. Exact break points and numbers could vary, but you get the idea.

I agree 100%. I think I said this same thing earlier in this thread. I don't understand why it goes 3 min hit straight to max hits, when a scale makes way more sense.

As I change my view I think it's a bit like this-

A big blast is liable to catch something even if it drifts a bit. Smaller units are hard to hit without drifting. A small singular blast can drift off very easily.

With big units it is almost impossible to miss the zone regardless of blast size.

As for rules writing - simpler is better.

Maybe: " Blast weapon: if the attacked unit contains at least 5/10/15/20/25 models all dice rolled for number of shots count as at least 2/3/4/5/6"
It's a compact rule, it has a sliding progression and also affects MSU at least a bit.

With the Wyvern as example: it would score min 8/12/16/20/24 hits against 5/10/15/20/25+ model units.

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Maybe: " Blast weapon: if the attacked unit contains at least 5/10/15/20/25 models all dice rolled for number of shots count as at least 2/3/4/5/6"
It's a compact rule, it has a sliding progression and also affects MSU at least a bit.

With the Wyvern as example: it would score min 8/12/16/20/24 hits against 5/10/15/20/25+ model units.

That would make the Wyvern do fewer attacks than it does now for the vast majority of targets available to it, which is also true for any amount of D6s since you're fixed it to a flat 3 from 10 to 14 models and 2 for less than 10 models - well down from the 3.5 now.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Maybe: " Blast weapon: if the attacked unit contains at least 5/10/15/20/25 models all dice rolled for number of shots count as at least 2/3/4/5/6"
It's a compact rule, it has a sliding progression and also affects MSU at least a bit.

With the Wyvern as example: it would score min 8/12/16/20/24 hits against 5/10/15/20/25+ model units.

That would make the Wyvern do fewer attacks than it does now for the vast majority of targets available to it, which is also true for any amount of D6s since you're fixed it to a flat 3 from 10 to 14 models and 2 for less than 10 models - well down from the 3.5 now.

Did you miss the "at least" there?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Maybe: " Blast weapon: if the attacked unit contains at least 5/10/15/20/25 models all dice rolled for number of shots count as at least 2/3/4/5/6"
It's a compact rule, it has a sliding progression and also affects MSU at least a bit.

With the Wyvern as example: it would score min 8/12/16/20/24 hits against 5/10/15/20/25+ model units.

That would make the Wyvern do fewer attacks than it does now for the vast majority of targets available to it, which is also true for any amount of D6s since you're fixed it to a flat 3 from 10 to 14 models and 2 for less than 10 models - well down from the 3.5 now.

Did you miss the "at least" there?

True however it also scales slightly better than GW current ruke which means D3 weapons max shots at 6 models and double shooting a D6 weapon is minimum 6 shots against a 6 model units but 2d6 shots is minimum 3 shots because you know balance

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Maybe: " Blast weapon: if the attacked unit contains at least 5/10/15/20/25 models all dice rolled for number of shots count as at least 2/3/4/5/6"
It's a compact rule, it has a sliding progression and also affects MSU at least a bit.

With the Wyvern as example: it would score min 8/12/16/20/24 hits against 5/10/15/20/25+ model units.

That would make the Wyvern do fewer attacks than it does now for the vast majority of targets available to it, which is also true for any amount of D6s since you're fixed it to a flat 3 from 10 to 14 models and 2 for less than 10 models - well down from the 3.5 now.

Did you miss the "at least" there?

I took "at least" to mean "this is my proposed levels", but fair enough.

It means 5 models or less GW's 3.5 goes to 3.7 - so blast gets better against the smallest units.
6 to 10 it goes to 4, which is the same as GW's rule.

Then it goes to 4.5 then 5.2 and then 6 - so it adds granularity, but does it solve a problem? Not sure.

I'm being a pedantic son of a beech, but you like that.

Just bring back blast templates and add a rule "Intent is important, if a player wanted his models 1" away but they are 0.99 away take the intent over the measurement".

ie, blast marker is 3" wide, err on the side of caution if a model's base is only partially inside.

If you're playing with mates that are witches no game is better than a bad game. For Tourneys if there's a fight just bring a TO across and yellow card both players.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Maybe: " Blast weapon: if the attacked unit contains at least 5/10/15/20/25 models all dice rolled for number of shots count as at least 2/3/4/5/6"
It's a compact rule, it has a sliding progression and also affects MSU at least a bit.

With the Wyvern as example: it would score min 8/12/16/20/24 hits against 5/10/15/20/25+ model units.

That would make the Wyvern do fewer attacks than it does now for the vast majority of targets available to it, which is also true for any amount of D6s since you're fixed it to a flat 3 from 10 to 14 models and 2 for less than 10 models - well down from the 3.5 now.

Did you miss the "at least" there?

I took "at least" to mean "this is my proposed levels", but fair enough.

It means 5 models or less GW's 3.5 goes to 3.7 - so blast gets better against the smallest units.
6 to 10 it goes to 4, which is the same as GW's rule.

Then it goes to 4.5 then 5.2 and then 6 - so it adds granularity, but does it solve a problem? Not sure.

I'm being a pedantic son of a beech, but you like that.

Yes it does because it scales with number of dice,
2d6 RFBC
GW
0-5 model 2d6
6-10 models 2d6 min3
11+ 12 shots
Battle cannon russ
0-5, 2d6
6-10 2d6 minimum 6
11+, 12 shots

Proposed system works for any number of D6 shots, how it translates in D3 weapons i'm not sure which is fairest.

My intention for D3 weapons would have been " if the target unit contains at least 5/15 models each dice for number of shots is treated as at least 2/3." My intention for these cutoffs would be that a small blast should start to have an effect if a unit has 5+ dudes.

But of course that's only my personal idea