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Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





So worth noting yall, because everyone seems to forget:

-CHAINFISTS (and presumably killsaws) will now be -1 to hit, Sx2, AP-4, D3d

-POWERFISTS (and presumably power klaws) will now be -1 to hit, Sx2, AP-3, D2

Chainfists (and Killsaws) will still have an additional point of AP meaning that most preferred targets with Sv3+ will not get a save against them, somewhat offsetting the damage efficiency loss vs meqs that flat 2 provides and making the weapons kind of a reasonably balanced choice.

For Meganobz, it's mostly about the fact that they get 2 killsaws vs 1 power klaw 1 kustom shoota. It's a 7-point upgrade (I think) where mostly you're paying for the extra attack they get via a rule on their datasheet. I suspect since they will have that stratagem to make htemselves damage minimum 2, killsaws will still be the way to roll with the d3 damage instead of 2 damage change. Because a kustom shoota is in no way worth 3 points.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/22 11:39:35


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in it
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Italy

the_scotsman wrote:
So worth noting yall, because everyone seems to forget:

-CHAINFISTS (and presumably killsaws) will now be -1 to hit, Sx2, AP-4, D3d

-POWERFISTS (and presumably power klaws) will now be -1 to hit, Sx2, AP-3, D2

Chainfists (and Killsaws) will still have an additional point of AP meaning that most preferred targets with Sv3+ will not get a save against them, somewhat offsetting the damage efficiency loss vs meqs that flat 2 provides and making the weapons kind of a reasonably balanced choice.

For Meganobz, it's mostly about the fact that they get 2 killsaws vs 1 power klaw 1 kustom shoota. It's a 7-point upgrade (I think) where mostly you're paying for the extra attack they get via a rule on their datasheet. I suspect since they will have that stratagem to make htemselves damage minimum 2, killsaws will still be the way to roll with the d3 damage instead of 2 damage change. Because a kustom shoota is in no way worth 3 points.


Although it would be a straight nerf to killsaws it also looks fair. I mean power klaws would have the reliable damage 2, killsaws get a better AP. Now they are in competition, like they should be.

Meganobz still have their strategem to add 1 damage if the ork player wants to eliminate those wasted damage rolls of 1 against 2W enemy models.

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Annandale, VA

Also, D3 damage is more effective than flat 2 damage against 3-wound models, to the tune of about 15%. Some people earlier in the thread were discounting that, but it's the same level of improvement as getting re-rolling 1s to hit, which is nothing to sneeze at.

Taking better AP into account, against Gravis (or anything else W3/3+), that chainfist/killsaw profile is just under 40% better than powerfists/powerklaws.

Against Primaris, both weapons perform identically (ave 1.2 wounds needed to kill).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/22 13:55:38


 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran





Jidmah, just give it a rest. He pointed out the statements you genuinely made, while you are also the one spending far more time attacking the person and not the argument. As is usual for you. Basically everything you've accused him of is more accurately aimed at yourself, and as r_squared said - nobody even gives a damn what you are trying to argue about right now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/22 13:23:49


 
   
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 catbarf wrote:
Also, D3 damage is more effective than flat 2 damage against 2-wound models, to the tune of about 15%. Some people earlier in the thread were discounting that, but it's the same level of improvement as getting re-rolling 1s to hit, which is nothing to sneeze at.

Taking better AP into account, against Gravis (or anything else W3/3+), that chainfist/killsaw profile is just under 40% better than powerfists/powerklaws.

Against Primaris, both weapons perform identically (ave 1.2 wounds needed to kill).


wait, how does that work? D3 damage surely is worse against W2 models than flat 2, I would assume about 33% worse because you can roll a 1 and then your next wound is wasted.

I buy that powerfists and chainfists would be identical against primaris (because the AP-4 matters vs Sv3+) but that would be offset by the damage 2, not an additional bonus of the damage d3.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/22 13:29:57


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






I'm running Deathshroud Terminator a lot currently, which are very similar to those potential MANz with d3 and a +1damage stratagem. 1d3+1 is reliable enough to murder 3W units as they tend to not have a large amount of models and they get overkilled anyways. When they touch a unit of destroyers or harlequin bikes, they simply disappear.

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the_scotsman wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Also, D3 damage is more effective than flat 2 damage against 2-wound models, to the tune of about 15%. Some people earlier in the thread were discounting that, but it's the same level of improvement as getting re-rolling 1s to hit, which is nothing to sneeze at.

Taking better AP into account, against Gravis (or anything else W3/3+), that chainfist/killsaw profile is just under 40% better than powerfists/powerklaws.

Against Primaris, both weapons perform identically (ave 1.2 wounds needed to kill).


wait, how does that work? D3 damage surely is worse against W2 models than flat 2, I would assume about 33% worse because you can roll a 1 and then your next wound is wasted.

I buy that powerfists and chainfists would be identical against primaris (because the AP-4 matters vs Sv3+) but that would be offset by the damage 2, not an additional bonus of the damage d3.


Yeah, I don't get that either. D3D does have a chance of hitting D1, but the improved chance against 3W is the offset along wtih the potential 5+ or 6+/4++ The new SS on a 2+ (Terminator or Artificer) at -3 +1 = 4+/4++ at -4+1 = 5+/4++ without SS it's 5+/5++ or 6+/5++ so even vs Terminators, Armor Save is pretty well bypassed by both.

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Annandale, VA

the_scotsman wrote:wait, how does that work? D3 damage surely is worse against W2 models than flat 2, I would assume about 33% worse because you can roll a 1 and then your next wound is wasted.

I buy that powerfists and chainfists would be identical against primaris (because the AP-4 matters vs Sv3+) but that would be offset by the damage 2, not an additional bonus of the damage d3.


Breton wrote:Yeah, I don't get that either. D3D does have a chance of hitting D1, but the improved chance against 3W is the offset along wtih the potential 5+ or 6+/4++ The new SS on a 2+ (Terminator or Artificer) at -3 +1 = 4+/4++ at -4+1 = 5+/4++ without SS it's 5+/5++ or 6+/5++ so even vs Terminators, Armor Save is pretty well bypassed by both.


Because I meant W3 models, and instead typo'd that post into nonsense

What I meant is that D3 damage is significantly more effective against W3 than flat 2 damage, but worse by about the same margin against W2.
   
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I figured that might be what you meant.

Tho I guess if I wanted to tool to fight Gravis I'd prefer the Thunder Hammer for a handful of extra points, everytime.
   
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 Nitro Zeus wrote:
I figured that might be what you meant.

Tho I guess if I wanted to tool to fight Gravis I'd prefer the Thunder Hammer for a handful of extra points, everytime.


TH did do the best. I think it was 4.5 dead per 5 TH/SS Terminators/VV

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
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Just for the sake of the math, how many unsaved wounds d2 and dD3 weapons need to kill a model:

W2: 1 (d2), 4/3 (dD3)
W3: 2 (d2), 16/9 (dD3)

So d2 kills +33% W2 models
dD3 kills +12.5% W3 models

Edit:Math
Spoiler:

Chance of a dD3 model to kill W2 with
1 shot: 2/3
2 shots: 1/3
=> 1x2/3+2x1/3=4/3 shots on average
=> d2 kills 4/3 as many models, therefore +33% damage

Chance of a dD3 model to kill W3 with
1 shot: 1/3
2 shots: 5/9 (rolling a 2 and anything else or rolling a 1 followed by 2 or 3)
3 shots: 1/9
=> 1x3/9+2x5/9+3x1/9=16/9
=> d2 needs 2=18/9 shots/W3 model, so dD3 kills (18/9)/(16/9)=18/16=9/8 = 112.5% as many W3 models

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/22 15:21:23


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Breton wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:


Actually you were, but why start with honesty now?
Jidmah wrote:Well, flat 2 is a lot better than d3 when you are hitting something like primaris or bikes.

The hell? Nice job taking that one out of context and moving more goalposts
I wasn't talking about marine bikes, but bikes in general like tomb blades, shininig spears, warbikers and so on. Oh and actual marine bikes which are 2 wounds right now.
You were the one to claim that *marine* bikes were going to 3 wounds and therefore d3 was superior against them. To which you then replied that we can't know yet whether they'll go up. You have proven yourself wrong.
So Primaris and ALL THE OTHER BIKES EVER.

Breton wrote:
My TH/SS and TwinLC Terminators are going to be shocked as hell they have power fists and chainfirsts.

They'll be more shocked to learn that their owner is intentionally confusing terminators and assault terminators for yet another bad faith argument.
Last I checked they were all terminators. Cataphracti, Tartaros, Shooty, Assault, Deathwing, etc. They're all referred to as Terminators with the two seat butt size.

Considering you are investing vastly more energy into being impolite and condescending than into your arguments or checking facts, I have no interest in reading any post from you ever again. Your contribution to this forum is less than worthless, so I'll use the technical means of dakka to improve the quality of content visible to me.


Well that was certainly polite and more interested in correcting the facts while complaining when I actually DID point out Bikes could actually be a different Stat Modifier than assumed.. I give back what I get, so perhaps a mirror isn't a good look for you. See ya.


It looks like you're running away from an argument when your falsehoods don't hold up anymore.
   
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 Pyroalchi wrote:
Just for the sake of the math, how many unsaved wounds d2 and dD3 weapons need to kill a model:

W2: 1 (d2), 4/3 (dD3)
W3: 2 (d2), 16/9 (dD3)

So d2 kills +33% W2 models
dD3 kills +12.5% W3 models


In the grand scheme of things, removing variance is worth it. I'll gladly lose some efficiency against 3 wound models to KNOW I need 2 attacks -- That is incredibly valuable, because I have a certain amount of resources I can use at any given moment. I often have to make hard choices where I need to split attacks and such, and even the chance of whiffing a roll is not worth it. I'll take losing the chance of rolling a 3 when I could roll three 1's and that might lose me the game.

And frankly, 2 wound models are still going to be the most common thing you see when you face space marines given now all firstborn at 2 wounds, and regular intercessors are still likely to be a great unit.

People arguing the other side know this and choose to be obtuse because they want Orks to have bad choices? hell if I know. Why don't we drop TH by 5 points for regular and 10 for characters and reduce it to Dd3 and see how quickly people's tunes change.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/22 17:21:36


 
   
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Reliability is extremely valuable. It adds up to d2 being better than dD3 in all but the most niche circumstances, TBH I assumed that was common knowledge.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/22 19:46:04


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 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Reliability is extremely valuable. It adds up to d2 being better than dD3 in all but the most niche circumstances, TBH I assumed that was common knowledge.


Reliability - quality vs quantity - is a psychological advantage, not really a statistical or performance one. 10 models with 20 wounds that get 20 shots hitting 67% of the time vs 20 models with 1 wound that get 40 shots hitting 33% of the time doesn’t provide a substantial upgrade either way, even tho half the shots landing twice as often is more “reliable”.

And I’m not sure I’d call either 2W or any and every other wound profile that isn’t 2W niche.

If you scroll back up far enough, this was about not considering either D2 or D3D an upgrade over the other, instead suggesting they were side-grades.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
 
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