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Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




These various buffs are fine and are also necessary.

Nobs becoming troops is the real answer, though. That would differentiate them from Mega Nobs in a significant way, and it would also allow me to go for a more elite army without burning my CP.

Hopefully if Deathskulls also retain their "Zog off" on all infantry, troops also count as double for holding an objective.
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






Dudeface wrote:
It's been a while but isn't cybork body a 5+ invuln anyway? It seems reasonable apart from the +1 strength. a 20 point model landing 3 s8 ap-2 d2 attacks seems a bit much.


Cybork was nerfed to 6+ FNP and doubled in points in 7th. It was never changed back.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




 Mr Raptor wrote:
Right now cyborg body is a 6+++ that can only be taken by 1 per 5 nob in the squad

Idk, it's still on a 2w T4 4+ platform, does that sound really unreasonable ? Right now it's 3A S7 AP1 D2 for 22pts and nobody takes them


S8 is a big break point in efficiency though, ap2 and a points drop would be better.
   
Made in fr
Fresh-Faced New User





The thing is, GW seems to have more and more prices be multiples of 5 recently, so I doubt they'll part from that much.

Also, without that +1S that means regular nobz are still not really threatening at all, so why even take them ?
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




 Mr Raptor wrote:
The thing is, GW seems to have more and more prices be multiples of 5 recently, so I doubt they'll part from that much.

Also, without that +1S that means regular nobz are still not really threatening at all, so why even take them ?


Threatening to what?
   
Made in fr
Fresh-Faced New User





Anything other than a low chaffs. If it's just an AP1 change it's not really going to revolutionize anything.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Mr Raptor wrote:
The thing is, GW seems to have more and more prices be multiples of 5 recently, so I doubt they'll part from that much.

Also, without that +1S that means regular nobz are still not really threatening at all, so why even take them ?


They are already Base S5. So their strength isn't the issue. The issue I have with them is that when you give them the decent weapons (Big Choppa, Saw, PK) you lose the +1 attack and you suffer -1 to hit on the PK and Saw. Conversely, if you gave them +1 attack and/or WS2+ they would be a lot better at dealing damage. I can't tell you the number of times I have had my PK nob fail miserably in CC.

If at first you don't succeed then Sky Diving isn't for you. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

Why is it that people hate/love this faction so much while harlequins, SoB, Daemons and Custodes who also score very well and have some extremely good units and synergies don't get this treatment ?
Marines get this treatment even when they are losing - always been this way. As you can see now with Custodes and Harliquens. People don't really care so much about imbalance specifically - because there is and always will be imbalance. You can't even rationalize with most of these people. They just hate marines. Like an older child that hates their younger sibling for getting all the attention except without any unconditional love at all.


Nope! You're wrong, you just aren't satisfied unless you have an unfair advantage with your marines over your opponent. This seems to be true of a lot of the most strident Astartes supporters both here and irl - they bought Astartes because they wanted to have an unfair advantage, since they're portrayed as the "best" army in fluff, and aren't satisfied if they don't get it.
I play about half of the armies. I am seeking no advantage in army choice. Marines are often on the lower end of power out of my army choices. Sure some power gamers went out and bought 3 repuslors executioners to spam in Ironhands supplement in the 8th eddition and flew them on top of 16 inch spires so they literally cant lose the game. Those players exists in every edition regardless of army. The same as all the Eldar armies a year earlier were just spamming as many eldar flyers as they could alitoc with protect fortune shinning spears wiping your army. The game could really use rules writters that understand they need to write rules with those players in mind.

I'm old enough to remember though when the same thing was being done with ork nobs to make an nearly indestructible kill unit of nobs.


You're factually wrong, but I'll respect the mod team and not drag it out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
It's been a while but isn't cybork body a 5+ invuln anyway? It seems reasonable apart from the +1 strength. a 20 point model landing 3 s8 ap-2 d2 attacks seems a bit much.


Cybork was nerfed to 6+ FNP and doubled in points in 7th. It was never changed back.


That seems like a fractal representation of how GW treats orks. They don't seem to want the army to be good.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/18 21:44:45


 
   
Made in fr
Fresh-Faced New User





Orks are in a weird position now.

Some of their best/good units have been slapped with insane price hike (SAG, killa kanz, gretchins...) and a lot of the units they have don't work well.

But with the 9th meta certains builds manage to be decent, or even competitive. And I feel like the orks can compete with what they have against even the best armies in the current meta. But the internal balance is awful.
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine




Between Alpha and Omega, and a little to the left

 Mr Raptor wrote:
Orks are in a weird position now.

Some of their best/good units have been slapped with insane price hike (SAG, killa kanz, gretchins...) and a lot of the units they have don't work well.

But with the 9th meta certains builds manage to be decent, or even competitive. And I feel like the orks can compete with what they have against even the best armies in the current meta. But the internal balance is awful.

Orks are a spoiler army that make some powerful skew lists. Always have been. When Orks do a thing, it's always in full tilt, and trying to go half way makes a list that's worse than the sum of it's parts. This is particularly good when going horde, because most people build towards dealing with marines (9th in particular, but also in general) and getting people to take actual anti-horde weapons and not just their basic infantry weapons is like asking someone to remove their own knee caps.

Want to help support my plastic addiction? I sell stories about humans fighting to survive in a space age frontier.
Lord Harrab wrote:"Gimme back my leg-bone! *wack* Ow, don't hit me with it!" commonly uttered by Guardsman when in close combat with Orks.

Bonespitta's Badmoons 1441 pts.  
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran





Meh just give orks a growing WAAAAGH mechanic. You know each faction is going to get their flavour of Doctrines so lets not pretend otherwise. Probably going to be some gak like


Little Waaaaaaaagh!
Choose one effect that is always active
- When Charging you can reroll any die result less than or equal to the turn number
- The turn when a unit you control charges, each model gains +1 A
- Any bonus weapon hits from Dakka Dakka Dakka gain 1 AP


Da Big WAAAAGH
Before the game secretly write down a turn number and your WAAAAGH. Once per game on that turn you can activate your chosen BIG WAAAAGH. This cannot be used if your warboss is dead
- For this fight phase, all Ork units must resolve their fights before activating any opponent unit
- For this shooting phase, Dakka Dakka Dakka can now generate additional Dakka Dakka Dakka shots
- All your embarked units can fight this turn as if they had the < BOARDIN PARTY > stratagem active

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/11/19 11:22:02


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Eonfuzz wrote:
Meh just give orks a growing WAAAAGH mechanic. You know each faction is going to get their flavour of Doctrines so lets not pretend otherwise. Probably going to be some gak like


Little Waaaaaaaagh!
Choose one effect that is always active
- When Charging you can reroll any die result less than or equal to the turn number
- The turn when a unit you control charges, each model gains +1 A
- Any bonus weapon hits from Dakka Dakka Dakka gain 1 AP


Da Big WAAAAGH
Before the game secretly write down a turn number and your WAAAAGH. Once per game on that turn you can activate your chosen BIG WAAAAGH. This cannot be used if your warboss is dead
- For this fight phase, all Ork units must resolve their fights before activating any opponent unit
- For this shooting phase, Dakka Dakka Dakka can now generate additional Dakka Dakka Dakka shots
- All your embarked units can fight this turn as if they had the < BOARDIN PARTY > stratagem active


Orkz already have rerolling dice on the charge for most units (Ere We Go). The +1 attack would be nice, especially if it stacks with Ghaz buff. The DDD buff might as well just disappear. Orkz have a 1/6 chance to get DDD, they then have a 1/3rd chance to get a hit with that DDD shot, and either a 1/2 or a 2/3rd chance to wound usually. DDD is so miniscule as to be mostly irrelevant, its a nice fluffy rule that helps occasionally but nobody would take that proposal (Please keep in mind I am offering constructive criticism).

All the "Big Waaagh" abilities are basically useless with the exception of the 1st one which has a least some merit, but its an incredibly small buff and very hard to use correctly based on the conditions you set.

The DDD one, lets say you have 30 shoota boyz miraculously all in range. Thats 60 shots and 20 hits. 10 DDD shots which result in 3.33 more hits. Those 3.33 are roughly 1.67 extra DDD shots which therefore generate another 0.56 hits.

60 shots with that big Waaagh ability generate 0.56 extra hits. Does that seem worth much to you? Now, if they changed the DDD rule to be similar to the Marine ones which is hit rolls of 6 generate an extra HIT than I would be onboard, but as it stands this ability is just about useless.

The final Big waaagh ability suffers the exact same way as the 1st one. Its incredibly random and almost never going to be used because you have to get your embarked units into CC on the exact turn you set your Waaagh to go off on, not exactly a sure fire thing.

I do hope you are correct and everyone else starts to get similar buffs to that of the SM codex, but the ones you've listed would be almost no buff at all.

If at first you don't succeed then Sky Diving isn't for you. 
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok




Sedona, Arizona

 some bloke wrote:
I wonder what would happen regarding Nobs if they made them cheaper, restricted their special weapons, and allowed them in squads up to 20 models?

They would be elites still, but elite at what orks do well - big mobs of things that want to hit you hard. I'd certainly try a unit of 20 ork nobs with 50% of them wielding klaws & saws. Technically you can do it already, with mob up, but now you could feasibly use mob up to get 30 nobs hitting the enemy.

They could also have the same rule as boys, but for over 10 models they gain an attack. There is zero reason, fluffwise, why nobs wouldn't form big mobs.


There is a (fluff) reason for this: Nobz don't like eachother.

They see one another as competition and each think they're the best. So when thrown together they're liable to fight amongst themselves for dominance. A basically perpetual cycle until there's only one of them left. The way around this is to give them a larger and clearly defined leader to keep them in line. A warboss, basically.

The 3ed codex actually only let you take units of Nobz as a retinue for a warboss for that reason. Otherwise you'd only ever find one nob per squad, as they'd MUCH rather be bullying a bunch of boyz that do as they're told / can be easily krumped if they talk back. This was still semi-present in the 4th edition codex where taking a Warboss allowed you t otake a unit of Nobz as troops, to represent his personal retinue.

I'm also, personally, not a fan of Nobz just being "Boyz+1." I don't have an issue with them being troops, but I do believe that their ability to be fully customized (bikes, special guns, special melee weapons, mega armor (as a different unit) is critical to their identity.

 welshhoppo wrote:

I like my Orks how I like my Emperor, dead.
 
   
Made in fr
Fresh-Faced New User





I mean, if they cannot stand each others, then why does the Nob unit even exist ? They even have a "boss nob" acting as a sergeant.
I'm not disagreeing, just being rhetorical btw.

A good whaaag bonus could that on the turn of the Whaaag, roll d6+6 for all charges instead of 2d6. Mobility is always great.
Nuns with guns have a similar ability after all.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran





SemperMortis wrote:
 Eonfuzz wrote:
Meh just give orks a growing WAAAAGH mechanic. You know each faction is going to get their flavour of Doctrines so lets not pretend otherwise. Probably going to be some gak like


Little Waaaaaaaagh!
Choose one effect that is always active
- When Charging you can reroll any die result less than or equal to the turn number
- The turn when a unit you control charges, each model gains +1 A
- Any bonus weapon hits from Dakka Dakka Dakka gain 1 AP


Da Big WAAAAGH
Before the game secretly write down a turn number and your WAAAAGH. Once per game on that turn you can activate your chosen BIG WAAAAGH. This cannot be used if your warboss is dead
- For this fight phase, all Ork units must resolve their fights before activating any opponent unit
- For this shooting phase, Dakka Dakka Dakka can now generate additional Dakka Dakka Dakka shots
- All your embarked units can fight this turn as if they had the < BOARDIN PARTY > stratagem active


Orkz already have rerolling dice on the charge for most units (Ere We Go). The +1 attack would be nice, especially if it stacks with Ghaz buff. The DDD buff might as well just disappear. Orkz have a 1/6 chance to get DDD, they then have a 1/3rd chance to get a hit with that DDD shot, and either a 1/2 or a 2/3rd chance to wound usually. DDD is so miniscule as to be mostly irrelevant, its a nice fluffy rule that helps occasionally but nobody would take that proposal (Please keep in mind I am offering constructive criticism).

All the "Big Waaagh" abilities are basically useless with the exception of the 1st one which has a least some merit, but its an incredibly small buff and very hard to use correctly based on the conditions you set.

The DDD one, lets say you have 30 shoota boyz miraculously all in range. Thats 60 shots and 20 hits. 10 DDD shots which result in 3.33 more hits. Those 3.33 are roughly 1.67 extra DDD shots which therefore generate another 0.56 hits.

60 shots with that big Waaagh ability generate 0.56 extra hits. Does that seem worth much to you? Now, if they changed the DDD rule to be similar to the Marine ones which is hit rolls of 6 generate an extra HIT than I would be onboard, but as it stands this ability is just about useless.

The final Big waaagh ability suffers the exact same way as the 1st one. Its incredibly random and almost never going to be used because you have to get your embarked units into CC on the exact turn you set your Waaagh to go off on, not exactly a sure fire thing.

I do hope you are correct and everyone else starts to get similar buffs to that of the SM codex, but the ones you've listed would be almost no buff at all.


Those buffs I wrote all doing basically nothing at all? Semper, it's almost like I wrote it like a GamesWorkshop designer would have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 morganfreeman wrote:
 some bloke wrote:
I wonder what would happen regarding Nobs if they made them cheaper, restricted their special weapons, and allowed them in squads up to 20 models?

They would be elites still, but elite at what orks do well - big mobs of things that want to hit you hard. I'd certainly try a unit of 20 ork nobs with 50% of them wielding klaws & saws. Technically you can do it already, with mob up, but now you could feasibly use mob up to get 30 nobs hitting the enemy.

They could also have the same rule as boys, but for over 10 models they gain an attack. There is zero reason, fluffwise, why nobs wouldn't form big mobs.


There is a (fluff) reason for this: Nobz don't like eachother.

They see one another as competition and each think they're the best. So when thrown together they're liable to fight amongst themselves for dominance. A basically perpetual cycle until there's only one of them left. The way around this is to give them a larger and clearly defined leader to keep them in line. A warboss, basically.

The 3ed codex actually only let you take units of Nobz as a retinue for a warboss for that reason. Otherwise you'd only ever find one nob per squad, as they'd MUCH rather be bullying a bunch of boyz that do as they're told / can be easily krumped if they talk back. This was still semi-present in the 4th edition codex where taking a Warboss allowed you t otake a unit of Nobz as troops, to represent his personal retinue.

I'm also, personally, not a fan of Nobz just being "Boyz+1." I don't have an issue with them being troops, but I do believe that their ability to be fully customized (bikes, special guns, special melee weapons, mega armor (as a different unit) is critical to their identity.


Honestly I've always thought the typical army structure doesn't befit an Orky waaagh. I think we *should* have to take copious amounts of boys or gretchin or bikers to "unlock" access to our more specialist units.
Making Nobz Boyz+++11 but use up one of the "unlocked" slots could be a really, really interesting trade off.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/19 22:58:15


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Eonfuzz wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Eonfuzz wrote:
Meh just give orks a growing WAAAAGH mechanic. You know each faction is going to get their flavour of Doctrines so lets not pretend otherwise. Probably going to be some gak like


Little Waaaaaaaagh!
Choose one effect that is always active
- When Charging you can reroll any die result less than or equal to the turn number
- The turn when a unit you control charges, each model gains +1 A
- Any bonus weapon hits from Dakka Dakka Dakka gain 1 AP


Da Big WAAAAGH
Before the game secretly write down a turn number and your WAAAAGH. Once per game on that turn you can activate your chosen BIG WAAAAGH. This cannot be used if your warboss is dead
- For this fight phase, all Ork units must resolve their fights before activating any opponent unit
- For this shooting phase, Dakka Dakka Dakka can now generate additional Dakka Dakka Dakka shots
- All your embarked units can fight this turn as if they had the < BOARDIN PARTY > stratagem active


Orkz already have rerolling dice on the charge for most units (Ere We Go). The +1 attack would be nice, especially if it stacks with Ghaz buff. The DDD buff might as well just disappear. Orkz have a 1/6 chance to get DDD, they then have a 1/3rd chance to get a hit with that DDD shot, and either a 1/2 or a 2/3rd chance to wound usually. DDD is so miniscule as to be mostly irrelevant, its a nice fluffy rule that helps occasionally but nobody would take that proposal (Please keep in mind I am offering constructive criticism).

All the "Big Waaagh" abilities are basically useless with the exception of the 1st one which has a least some merit, but its an incredibly small buff and very hard to use correctly based on the conditions you set.

The DDD one, lets say you have 30 shoota boyz miraculously all in range. Thats 60 shots and 20 hits. 10 DDD shots which result in 3.33 more hits. Those 3.33 are roughly 1.67 extra DDD shots which therefore generate another 0.56 hits.

60 shots with that big Waaagh ability generate 0.56 extra hits. Does that seem worth much to you? Now, if they changed the DDD rule to be similar to the Marine ones which is hit rolls of 6 generate an extra HIT than I would be onboard, but as it stands this ability is just about useless.

The final Big waaagh ability suffers the exact same way as the 1st one. Its incredibly random and almost never going to be used because you have to get your embarked units into CC on the exact turn you set your Waaagh to go off on, not exactly a sure fire thing.

I do hope you are correct and everyone else starts to get similar buffs to that of the SM codex, but the ones you've listed would be almost no buff at all.


Those buffs I wrote all doing basically nothing at all? Semper, it's almost like I wrote it like a GamesWorkshop designer would have.


Ok, I honestly laughed out loud when I read this! Sadly you are correct.

If at first you don't succeed then Sky Diving isn't for you. 
   
 
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