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Honestly, I imagine any amount of death threats feels like a bombardment. There's a lot of unhinged people on the net and suddenly realizing you're publicly exposed to these people is pretty terrifying. There's no excuse for taking things that far.

Not that I have any sympathy otherwise. I've run enough events where I had to deal with this kind of player and... IDK. Usually they seem like really nice people, but the lengths they'll go to win a game of toy soldiers is almost impossible to reconcile. I think that's the part that makes it so hard to believe that they'll ever change; it feels like it was all a farce to begin with.

Here's a wierd idea, stop hinging events on cash prizes. That would cut down majorly on cheating I think. 1st Prize is a box of steak knives. 2nd place is your fired. (Sorry Glenn Gary joke)

But seriously, stop hinging tournaments on thousands of dollars. Just make it about cred, and maybe some cool models. Get your picture with the Donald, I don't care.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Here's a wierd idea, stop hinging events on cash prizes. That would cut down majorly on cheating I think. 1st Prize is a box of steak knives. 2nd place is your fired. (Sorry Glenn Gary joke)

But seriously, stop hinging tournaments on thousands of dollars. Just make it about cred, and maybe some cool models. Get your picture with the Donald, I don't care.

Exalted. Prize money is not needed. GW cheque book and pen, or just BFH would be enough*

*see british game shows

 PaddyMick wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Here's a wierd idea, stop hinging events on cash prizes. That would cut down majorly on cheating I think. 1st Prize is a box of steak knives. 2nd place is your fired. (Sorry Glenn Gary joke)

But seriously, stop hinging tournaments on thousands of dollars. Just make it about cred, and maybe some cool models. Get your picture with the Donald, I don't care.

Exalted. Prize money is not needed. GW cheque book and pen, or just BFH would be enough*

*see british game shows

My gaming club ended up buying a load of army boxes and breaking them down for prizes (along with hobby supplies) as even GW / FLGS vouchers were causing issues.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Here's a wierd idea, stop hinging events on cash prizes. That would cut down majorly on cheating I think. 1st Prize is a box of steak knives. 2nd place is your fired. (Sorry Glenn Gary joke)

But seriously, stop hinging tournaments on thousands of dollars. Just make it about cred, and maybe some cool models. Get your picture with the Donald, I don't care.

Well, in the earlier days of the US GWGTs, there was no prize support at all...not even merch. You got a trophy, maybe a little publicity from the company, and some bragging rights.

I know...shut up, old man. But considering what people pay to attend GTs...does even a little bit of merch matter? We've seen top players attempt to monetize their tourney wins by offering coaching lessons, and pro painters advertise their services through their best painted wins and such. Now clearly there's a big difference between the big events and more local ones. Some nice prizes can make the smaller ones feel 'bigger' and that's cool and good. But if you win, say, Adepticon or the LV Open...isn't that enough on its own, especially these days?

To be clear, I'm not saying it would eliminate cheating. That happened at times in the early days also, when it was only about cred. And now cred is far bigger and can be more readily turned into profit. But I have to think it'd make a dent, at least. Maybe not for those people who attend with a clear plan to cheat, but for those little moments in games when someone might be tempted if there's a lot of cash on the line.

I really don't think people cheat for money; even if you win every event you go to in 40k, you don't even make back the money you spend. They do it for ego reasons.

I do think having monetary prizes does tend to promote bad behavior, though, not so much because people really want to cheat to get the money as because it sets a certain tone for the event as a whole.

People cheat even in casual games. If anything I wonder if a tournament environment would discourage it because cheaters would know their opponents are going to be more attentive and there'll be more heat for getting caught out than a casual game?

That's why I reckon the "people would edit their rules!" argument doesn't stand up to logic, it'd be so easy to get caught and you'd be named and shamed out of competing again. You reckon people aren't just gonna notice if you start editing the rules for your army? I reckon it'd be way easier to hide dice cheating than rules editing, and in the end probably more effective.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
People cheat even in casual games. If anything I wonder if a tournament environment would discourage it because cheaters would know their opponents are going to be more attentive and there'll be more heat for getting caught out than a casual game?

That's why I reckon the "people would edit their rules!" argument doesn't stand up to logic, it'd be so easy to get caught and you'd be named and shamed out of competing again. You reckon people aren't just gonna notice if you start editing the rules for your army? I reckon it'd be way easier to hide dice cheating than rules editing, and in the end probably more effective.

We've literally just seen a player banned form the ITC for a year for some of the most obvious cheating you'll ever see and he was on stream at the time. I don't think you can say tournaments make people less likely to try this kind of thing. If anything they seem to bring out the worst in a certain type of person.

Slipspace wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
People cheat even in casual games. If anything I wonder if a tournament environment would discourage it because cheaters would know their opponents are going to be more attentive and there'll be more heat for getting caught out than a casual game?

That's why I reckon the "people would edit their rules!" argument doesn't stand up to logic, it'd be so easy to get caught and you'd be named and shamed out of competing again. You reckon people aren't just gonna notice if you start editing the rules for your army? I reckon it'd be way easier to hide dice cheating than rules editing, and in the end probably more effective.

We've literally just seen a player banned form the ITC for a year for some of the most obvious cheating you'll ever see and he was on stream at the time. I don't think you can say tournaments make people less likely to try this kind of thing. If anything they seem to bring out the worst in a certain type of person.

I never posited that it would completely stop cheating, so the fact we've seen a player banned recently hardly invalidates my argument, just that I think the idea that people are more likely to cheat if there's a tournament with prizes is a pretty baseless one.

Like speed cameras reduce (but don't eliminate) the number of people who speed in their cars, I reckon the tournament environment where you're playing against experience players who know the rules and will call you out and result in consequences is more likely to make people hesitant to cheat.

I've seen heaps of cheating in casual games in my gaming lifetime. People moving models too far, people "forgetting" rules, dice hijinks, exploiting ignorant players' lack of knowledge of the rules. Some people just like to win regardless of whether it's a tournament game or a casual game.

Obviously it's just a hunch, but I'd guess you'd find more cheating at your local games night than at a big tournament with prizes and cameras broadcasting it across the internet.

Has anyone ever actually heard of someone cheating by editing rules in a PDF? Given the massive amount of other types of cheating that does go on that everyone is aware of, one would think that if this was a thing, there'd be tons of examples of it.

I suspect there aren't because that it would (1) take a lot more effort than other ways to cheat, and (2) be way easier to catch, since you leave a paper trail of your own cheating for anyone to find, which is discoverable by anyone who actually knows what the rules are.

That is why most people demand the physical book to verify. And why PDF's are not allowed at majors.

I have seen a lot of "cheating" with list building, because they didn't know how to read their codex, and no, the IG Sgt cannot be armed with a Plasma gun, or plasma pistol. They get confused on their unit load outs, or their points cost, "Why is your Knight only 210 points? No, you add the cost of the gun, not subtract" It's a fairly standard thing that doesn't rise to "Cheating" because it's impossible to prove malicious intent.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
no, the IG Sgt cannot be armed with a Plasma gun, or plasma pistol.

They can actually be armed with a plasma pistol.

yukishiro1 wrote:Has anyone ever actually heard of someone cheating by editing rules in a PDF? Given the massive amount of other types of cheating that does go on that everyone is aware of, one would think that if this was a thing, there'd be tons of examples of it.

I suspect there aren't because that it would (1) take a lot more effort than other ways to cheat, and (2) be way easier to catch, since you leave a paper trail of your own cheating for anyone to find, which is discoverable by anyone who actually knows what the rules are.

I've never seen it. The worst I've seen in a casual game is is someone "forgot" to bring their book but had "memorised" the rules, in reality was just making crap up and got called out on it because other people around did know the rules. He tried the "so I need 4's to hit and 4's to wound" and we were like, "err, no, sorry, you need 5's to hit", he argued that the unit had a higher Bs than they were supposed to be but didn't have his army book to demonstrate it. Eventually his opponent just called off the game because he kept making crap up.

But that's still a ways off actually editing rules.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:That is why most people demand the physical book to verify. And why PDF's are not allowed at majors.

I have seen a lot of "cheating" with list building, because they didn't know how to read their codex, and no, the IG Sgt cannot be armed with a Plasma gun, or plasma pistol. They get confused on their unit load outs, or their points cost, "Why is your Knight only 210 points? No, you add the cost of the gun, not subtract" It's a fairly standard thing that doesn't rise to "Cheating" because it's impossible to prove malicious intent.

List building "errors" are a lot different to editing documents that you've scanned. I've genuinely made errors in list building and I tend to give others the benefit of the doubt if they make mistakes also. That's a far cry from scanning a document, opening it in photoshop, editing values or text, then printing it off or bringing the edited PDF's to an event.

As yukishiro said, all you're doing is leaving a paper trail of your cheating by editing PDF's, too many people at an event are going to know the rules for your army by memory for you to pull that crap.

At least list building "errors" you can say "whoops, that was a mistake, my apologies, let me correct that", but editing an existing document? There's no way you can feign an accident or ignorance.

beast_gts wrote:

 PaddyMick wrote:
Just someone answer me this, if I go to a tournament, like a big one, like a GT or something, do I have to bring my core rule book, and the faq's, as well as my codex, and the faq's? What format should the faq's take (I don't have a smartphone!)

Check the event pack or with the TO. For example, the London GT pack says you must bring "-Rules, including core rule book, codices, indices and any FAQs relevant to your army".

many local hobby stores will let you borrow or front you copies of books for tournament if you sponsor their store/gear/services. I know my FLGS will loan out carrying cases, travel boxes, and other merch just to have their name promoted. YMMV

Cheers felix i'll look into that.

On the subject of cheating and prize money, I just heard on the Chapter Tactics podcast that if you cheat when there is prize money involved, it's an actual crime, a federal misdeamer or some such. How mental is that?

 PaddyMick wrote:

beast_gts wrote:

 PaddyMick wrote:
Just someone answer me this, if I go to a tournament, like a big one, like a GT or something, do I have to bring my core rule book, and the faq's, as well as my codex, and the faq's? What format should the faq's take (I don't have a smartphone!)

Check the event pack or with the TO. For example, the London GT pack says you must bring "-Rules, including core rule book, codices, indices and any FAQs relevant to your army".

I just signed up to the Leicester GT, really looking forward to it, but I currently only own the core rules, and i've managed to write a list where i'll need the codex, plus two supplements, and you also have to bring the mission pack, so about £80 of books to play a £50 event, which will all be out of date when the new codex drop and tourney pack drop, which may be soon. I wouldn't mind but I won't get to play events frequently; this could be the only one where I use the books. Reckon i'm gonna try and borrow everything off someone if I can. Need to make some friends at the local club to get some practice games in anyway!

Borrowing the books is a good solution, especially if you're not sure you're going to continue to use that army for the forseeable future. Can I ask how you created a list without the Codexes and supplements? If it was from books borrowed from friends maybe they'll let you borrow them for the tournament?

 PaddyMick wrote:
On the subject of cheating and prize money, I just heard on the Chapter Tactics podcast that if you cheat when there is prize money involved, it's an actual crime, a federal misdeamer or some such. How mental is that?

Also depending on where you are the organisers might need a gambling or lottery licence to legally offer a cash prize.

 PaddyMick wrote:
Cheers felix i'll look into that.

On the subject of cheating and prize money, I just heard on the Chapter Tactics podcast that if you cheat when there is prize money involved, it's an actual crime, a federal misdeamer or some such. How mental is that?

Makes sense, morally I'd say it's not far off stealing if you're cheating to win a prize you wouldn't have otherwise won.

The main take I got from this thread is that I should be thankful to be playing systems with 100% rules that are online, and thus avoid such conundrums.

Considering what people can get away with today, I'm not at all convinced stealing is even a crime anymore.

Slipspace wrote:
Can I ask how you created a list without the Codexes and supplements?

I went online to Wahapedia, which has all the rules and armies. It's a russian website of dubious legality. I've got nothing against putting my hand in my pocket for a codex and the core rules, but it does get a bit silly having to have 4 books... and then not knowing what you will be facing unless you buy the other codexes too. So for me I look at it like sampling the goods before making a purchase. I don't spend any more or less money with GW 'cos I'm using it, if that makes sense.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've thought a lot about whether it's right to use Wahepedia, and concluded that it's okay. I am however open to changing my mind.

Wahapedia is no less "Illegal" or "suspect" than Battlescribe, which I would guess a large majority of the tournament crown favors. It's still 3rd party though, so put in the homework to verify.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wahapedia is no less "Illegal" or "suspect" than Battlescribe, which I would guess a large majority of the tournament crown favors. It's still 3rd party though, so put in the homework to verify.

Yeah, like Battlescribe, it's providing something GW isn't: easily referencing the rules in one place (without actually reproducing any rules book pages). I find it more up to date and usable than Battlescribe. I mean I will buy the books, I love the books, I just wish that a) they produced paperback versions and b) it wasn't so reliant on timing, as it's easy to get stuck with out of date stuff.

If you are intent on going through the back door, there are plenty of used codecies on ebay. People are constantly in and out of this hobby, or switching armies, and when they do the books hit the online shelves. Granted, it's about the same cost, but I have found a few 20$ book deals.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wahapedia is no less "Illegal" or "suspect" than Battlescribe, which I would guess a large majority of the tournament crown favors. It's still 3rd party though, so put in the homework to verify.

It would be great to have an official 40k wiki with a micro-subscription.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wahapedia is no less "Illegal" or "suspect" than Battlescribe, which I would guess a large majority of the tournament crown favors. It's still 3rd party though, so put in the homework to verify.

I'm not a copyright lawyer, nor am I that familiar with the sources, but my understanding is Wahapedia is a word for word copy of the text including the fluff background for rules. That is a big no-no. whereas Battlescribe provides stats and summaries of rules, items which I don't believe are copyrightable.

There is a rather fun copy right law that says you are allowed to 1-1 copy a of work of intellectual property, for the purpose of learning or educating. Wahapedia fully exploits that loophole.

It's why Paul Daniels makes a ton off selling computer board schematics on Apply devices to 3rd party repair people. They pay him for the right to learn how the boards are put together. It's all off "education".

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
There is a rather fun copy right law that says you are allowed to 1-1 copy a of work of intellectual property, for the purpose of learning or educating. Wahapedia fully exploits that loophole.

I've never heard of such a law. There are certain exemptions for education purposes, but it's not a blanket "you're allowed to copy if it's for education!". There's rules around being able to copy portions (not entire works) for education purposes, review, news or satire. Often there are payments made to the rights holders to allow specific education institutes (i.e. not just anyone claiming to be an educator) to copy works in ways that would normally require permission.

At my University they're clear that Educational copyright licence is not a blanket allowance to copy, it is only limited amounts of a text, has to be done by University staff, strictly for educational purposes within the University (can't just upload it to a public server, but it can be uploaded to a unit's webpage accessible to students enrolled in that unit).

It's why Paul Daniels makes a ton off selling computer board schematics on Apply devices to 3rd party repair people. They pay him for the right to learn how the boards are put together. It's all off "education".

That's not at all the same. Paul Daniels doesn't make 1:1 copies and then on sell them as education, he writes his own software that can take board views and schematics. He even says on his website: "Note: Boardviews and schematics are intellectual property owned by the respective parties, as such it is not legal to distribute them with FlexBV any more than it would be to distribute SpaceX raptor engine plans with AutoCAD (no matter how impressive that would be)."

Nurglitch wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wahapedia is no less "Illegal" or "suspect" than Battlescribe, which I would guess a large majority of the tournament crown favors. It's still 3rd party though, so put in the homework to verify.

It would be great to have an official 40k wiki with a micro-subscription.

Yes! I would pay for that. They should employ the guys who do wahapedia and battlescribe.