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Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Karol wrote:
Orks were already better then most marines without the +1T, updating them to be even better makes as much sense as updating SoB, or something like eldar, instead of Tau or GSC, who actually do need a codex writen with 9th ed in mind. Same with knights.

There are no numbers to support that claim, quite the opposite. Orks are currently sitting at a below 50% winrate with, depending on which data you look at, 4-7 marine chapters outperforming them.
Orks need a codex written with 9th in mind as much as any other faction.

I also find the "will be updated" argument strange. Who says, my codex won't end up like the DW one. DW got updated and they are bad. Plus soon means many things for GW.It could as well be after summer, and with how vaccinations works here, we are going to have another lock down in autum, which for me, means I would get to play with the rules, maybe in spring next year. That is one and a half year of an edition. Plus as I said this isn't just a me problem. Sure GK and 1ksons were suppose to be updated. But there is nothing said about chaos space marines.


So, since the codex CSM might be bad, GK should not get an extra wound and get no weapon updates whatsoever. Am I understanding your argument correctly?

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Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
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Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Karol wrote:
SemperMortis 799075 11151142 wrote:
But at what cost, a 1W model with a 6+ save that is more often than not, not getting an armor save.

Also, the 2W Primaris Marine is more than 2.5x tougher than an Ork. Again, 1.2 wounds to kill an Ork boy, where as it takes 6 to kill a Marine. D2+ weapons is where Marines suffer, and T5 orkz actually help that since it forces more players to bring weapons better at killing orkz.

A marine doesn't get a save more often then not either, or when he does it is a +5sv or +4sv. And 2W is not a thing for multiple marine armies. 1ksons, all the csm legions and GK too. And a t5 orkz does not help marine players one bit, no one is going to spend money, specially not outside of tournaments, to hard counter orks when there is maybe 1 ork player per multiple marine players at the store. At worse if orks really become a problem GW will get some crazy idea to make scatter lasers or shriker cannons str 5-6 d2 -2AP with 3-4 shots. Just look at what DE did to the meta with their new codex. By your logic, the need to counter DE should have made marines do better in the game. But nothing like that happened. In fact the weaker marines got even weaker.


Deathwatch post-codex pre-drukhari meta: 40% winrate.

Deathwatch post-Drukhari meta: 51% winrate.

Space Wolves post-codex pre-drukhari meta: 53% winrate

Space Wolves post-drukhari meta: 43% winrate.

it isn't clear what the effects of the drukhari nerfs will actually be, but a faction with a relatively small slice of the play meta and a massive insane winrate has not appeared to have resulted in the very worst factions getting better, instead previously 'pretty good' factions like space wolves and blood angels got absolutely tanked while several totally disregarded factions like thousand sons, eldar, deathwatch and tau have been sneaking unexpected top placings now that the play meta isn't totally homogenous heavy infantry lists.


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Karol wrote:

A marine doesn't get a save more often then not either, or when he does it is a +5sv or +4sv. And 2W is not a thing for multiple marine armies. 1ksons, all the csm legions and GK too. And a t5 orkz does not help marine players one bit, no one is going to spend money, specially not outside of tournaments, to hard counter orks when there is maybe 1 ork player per multiple marine players at the store. At worse if orks really become a problem GW will get some crazy idea to make scatter lasers or shriker cannons str 5-6 d2 -2AP with 3-4 shots. Just look at what DE did to the meta with their new codex. By your logic, the need to counter DE should have made marines do better in the game. But nothing like that happened. In fact the weaker marines got even weaker.


Lets take a moment to appreciate the ridiculous nature of this post. A Marine doesn't get a save more often then not. That translates to more than half of the time a Marine does not get a save, and on those rare occasions they do its a 5+ or a 4+. I was unaware that all of my big shootas and shootas were now -1 to -4AP. I am even more surprised at this claim since I thought AP-4 was somewhat rare.

Next complaint, not all Marine armies have 2W. Oh, well in that case we better not buff any other faction until every other Power armored model gets a 2nd wound.

I also really want to point out one rather funny thing here. Here we have Karol arguing that Orkz going to T5 instead of getting a FNP isn't going to impact Marine players or specifically the anti-Marine meta because and I quote
No one is going to spend money, specially not outside of tournaments, to hard counter orkz when there is maybe 1 ork player per multiple marine players at the store
. I also want to further quote at tournaments
if someone goes full anti marine meta, then they better be friends with the judges or the person who does the match ups, so they get those 2 DA games in match 3-5, because if they run in to SoB, DE or orks they are going to be very sad about their results.


So you have Karol arguing that people aren't list building with Marines in mind because they might run into SoB, DE or Orkz and he is also arguing that nobody is preparing a list for orkz or DE in the very next quote.


Also,
By your logic, the need to counter DE should have made marines do better in the game.
well lets see, DE have had a dex for 2 months. They are currently HEAVILY over represented in the tournament scene compared to 3+ months ago, but even then they still only represent a fraction of an event when compared to Marines. In the recent SUPER event in Atlantic city (250+ Competitors) Marines had about 1/4th of all lists, not including Grey knights, Custodes, Chaos or other Power armored armies. DE, the current meta hotness on the other hand had a massive (And I actually do mean massive) 12%. So even at full tilt, DE Managed to bring less than HALF of what Marine armies bring to a Super event. So why would you list build when you have a 1/8ish chance of even playing DE until the final games?

I do also want to point out something related to another topic, that being specific Marine players insistence on using W/L as a proof of how well a faction is doing, but only specifically when trying to nerf other factions or prove that Marines need a buff. Since their codex dropped DE have had around a 30% W/L rate. By that metric, using those Marine player arguments, DE are in horrible need of a massive buff. On the other hand, the metric I've always said should measure whether a competitive army needs a buff, Top 4 Placings, DE are doing..PHENOMENAL! Since their codex dropped DE have 33 Top 4 placings in tournaments AND 12 #1 placings while also sweeping all 4 places in 1 event and taking 3 of the top 4 in 2 events. Just thought I would throw that little tidbit out there.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/17 14:02:46


 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
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Best thing about T5 6+ W1 Orks? My love for the assault cannon as my favourite 40k weapon

S6 AP-1 1D? Why, thank you very much kind sir. Even better when it's twins...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/17 14:06:47


 
   
Made in us
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Semper I'm incredibly curious where you're getting "DE have had a 30% winrate overall since their codex."

The places I generally go for competitive data have had DE as a very clear winrate outlier - 65%-75% depending on the week. Now, almost every major facet of their competitive lists did just get nerfed, and to my knowledge we have yet to see any post-nerf major events, just like we haven't seen any post-codex major events for Admech. So we don't know where the numbers are for drukhari without Dark Technomancers, without blender succubus, without +2CP and with +10pt raiders. It's not yet even close to clear whether that's enough of a nerf, but it is absolutely clear that a nerf was warranted, just like it was clear a nerf was warranted after the supplements first came out with marines 2.0.


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Beaverton OR

So I'm going to do an internet faux pas here;
I think you guys have actually convinced me to change my mind.

Honestly, it was the maths that did it. I still would prefer some weird fluffy rule over t5, but after seeing the maths breakdown and discussion about how much useless rolling is gotten rid of, I'm on board with t5 orks.

The other factors, to me, is that this news will likely make the Ork players really happy and in turn inspire more varied opponents at my LGS. To me that is a very good thing! I honestly can't remember the last time Ork players got such a good reason to get excited, and so as much as I would love some amazing alternative that no one has come up with, I'm on board with this change
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






The most interesting thing to me about this recent meta over the last couple of months isn't whether or not drukhari are overpowered (they are) but how actually introducing a powerful army that plays in a different style than the absolute dominance of heavy infantry durability skew changes the performance of other armies.

Some armies that were at the bottom - GSC, Knights and the like - have stayed there, while others like Tau, Deathwatch and Thousand Sons have pulled some pretty surprising wins out.

Between DG, marines and custodes, the play meta was over 3/4s heavy infantry based factions prior to the drukhari dex taking a gigantic dump on all of them. the only other things you saw winning events were lists that were basically designed with the ethos of 'if I never ever face anything except heavy infantry lists, I will wreck face' like the all-slaanesh party time, ghazzy and the ladz and the harlequins' fusion spam.

Now that drukhari and admech add threatening mechanized and light infantry based lists respectively, I'm really curious to see which armies are still looking totally unusable and which were just being held back by not being able to spec vs the power armored sausage party meta.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'




Crescent City Fl..

 bullyboy wrote:
Best thing about T5 6+ W1 Orks? My love for the assault cannon as my favourite 40k weapon

S6 AP-1 1D? Why, thank you very much kind sir. Even better when it's twins...



I very much agree. I've ben chatting with a friend about 40K and T5 Orks and I feel very much this will be good over all of all factions in the game. Gasp.
I could very well be wrong. Fine. a lot of players of each faction look at their codex and dismiss many units or options because another option is more cost effective, the math hammer is just better at that time. Cost is a factor. T5 boys brings some of those choices back as something players will consider to have on hand if they want a stronger tac list, just incase. And we already suspect that once the Ork codex drops a lot of players will jump to Orks to play the new hotness, just like many already do for ever new faction. If, for example, SM's are just running a minimum of 3 troops 5 strong to pay their taxes then T5 Boys vs those units ST4 weapons is mostly meaningless. Those SM players will already have better options for shredding those T5 boys.
We should also remember the variety of +1 to wound rolls or to hot rolls that exist. Along with the -1 to hit mechanics. Between these things it seems to me that GW wants players of every faction to have to fish for 4,5, and 6's. Or 5 and 6's. To me that's what 40K has become where it was less so before. This should, as as I said above I could be wrong, even the chances for every faction...and sell more new units as other factions like Nidz see some stat improvements here or there.

And as boys ppm may go up to as much as 10 points the number of T5 boys goes down a bit still leaning into an advantage or at least lowering the disadvantage SM's face when being that outnumbered by T5 models.

Or T5 Orks just made the autto-cannon a much better choice for the AM and selling more autto-cannons = profit.
Just a thought anyway.

"Pathetic earthlings. Hurling your bodies out into the void, without the slightest inkling of who or what is out here. If you had known anything about the true nature of the universe, anything at all, you would've hidden from it in terror."
My blog http://warhead01.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-art-of-ork.html 
   
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Unfortunatly Autocannons are still worse than heavy bolters against anything not T6 (edit: and equal against T7) ... and even there the advantage is thin.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/17 15:24:39


~5750 build and painted 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






leerm02 wrote:
So I'm going to do an internet faux pas here;
I think you guys have actually convinced me to change my mind.

Honestly, it was the maths that did it. I still would prefer some weird fluffy rule over t5, but after seeing the maths breakdown and discussion about how much useless rolling is gotten rid of, I'm on board with t5 orks.

The other factors, to me, is that this news will likely make the Ork players really happy and in turn inspire more varied opponents at my LGS. To me that is a very good thing! I honestly can't remember the last time Ork players got such a good reason to get excited, and so as much as I would love some amazing alternative that no one has come up with, I'm on board with this change


That's not a faux pas, that's just changing your opinion based on new knowledge you gained. Which simply means that you are an intelligent person.

It's just that the world is stupid for thinking that this is not the normal way to do it.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

 Jidmah wrote:
leerm02 wrote:
So I'm going to do an internet faux pas here;
I think you guys have actually convinced me to change my mind.

Honestly, it was the maths that did it. I still would prefer some weird fluffy rule over t5, but after seeing the maths breakdown and discussion about how much useless rolling is gotten rid of, I'm on board with t5 orks.

The other factors, to me, is that this news will likely make the Ork players really happy and in turn inspire more varied opponents at my LGS. To me that is a very good thing! I honestly can't remember the last time Ork players got such a good reason to get excited, and so as much as I would love some amazing alternative that no one has come up with, I'm on board with this change


That's not a faux pas, that's just changing your opinion based on new knowledge you gained. Which simply means that you are an intelligent person.

It's just that the world is stupid for thinking that this is not the normal way to do it.
Agreed 100%.

Too many people get dug into their side (not even beliefs, really-just "I'm right you're wrong") and refuse to change, no matter what.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






If you approve of a change - that makes a boltgun as effective against an ork as a lasgun. You are completely out of touch with the lore. You lose all creditbility in future lore arguements. "ahh yes, lasguns and bolters should have equal effect against orks"

The sad part is - it's only fair if orks get a significant point bump...which will not help them in any way and in effect it will just make them worse against lasguns.

Or it will not be fair and it will be nerfed.


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
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In My Lab

 Xenomancers wrote:
If you approve of a change - that makes a boltgun as effective against an ork as a lasgun. You are completely out of touch with the lore. You lose all creditbility in future lore arguements. "ahh yes, lasguns and bolters should have equal effect against orks"

The sad part is - it's only fair if orks get a significant point bump...which will not help them in any way and in effect it will just make them worse against lasguns.

Or it will not be fair and it will be nerfed.

That sounds like an issue with the wounding chart more than anything.

Why is a Bolt Rifle no worse than a Heavy Bolter against Guardsmen?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
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 JNAProductions wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
leerm02 wrote:
So I'm going to do an internet faux pas here;
I think you guys have actually convinced me to change my mind.

Honestly, it was the maths that did it. I still would prefer some weird fluffy rule over t5, but after seeing the maths breakdown and discussion about how much useless rolling is gotten rid of, I'm on board with t5 orks.

The other factors, to me, is that this news will likely make the Ork players really happy and in turn inspire more varied opponents at my LGS. To me that is a very good thing! I honestly can't remember the last time Ork players got such a good reason to get excited, and so as much as I would love some amazing alternative that no one has come up with, I'm on board with this change


That's not a faux pas, that's just changing your opinion based on new knowledge you gained. Which simply means that you are an intelligent person.

It's just that the world is stupid for thinking that this is not the normal way to do it.
Agreed 100%.

Too many people get dug into their side (not even beliefs, really-just "I'm right you're wrong") and refuse to change, no matter what.

Some people are just smarter than others. Any change that makes a bolter and a lasgun equal against anything short of a custodian...is a bad change.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
If you approve of a change - that makes a boltgun as effective against an ork as a lasgun. You are completely out of touch with the lore. You lose all creditbility in future lore arguements. "ahh yes, lasguns and bolters should have equal effect against orks"

The sad part is - it's only fair if orks get a significant point bump...which will not help them in any way and in effect it will just make them worse against lasguns.

Or it will not be fair and it will be nerfed.

That sounds like an issue with the wounding chart more than anything.

Why is a Bolt Rifle no worse than a Heavy Bolter against Guardsmen?

It's not - it has more shots.

This rule is being iterated against the current wounding chart. It's bad. It's a bad ploy to sell heavy intercessors.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/17 15:40:00


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

 Xenomancers wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
leerm02 wrote:
So I'm going to do an internet faux pas here;
I think you guys have actually convinced me to change my mind.

Honestly, it was the maths that did it. I still would prefer some weird fluffy rule over t5, but after seeing the maths breakdown and discussion about how much useless rolling is gotten rid of, I'm on board with t5 orks.

The other factors, to me, is that this news will likely make the Ork players really happy and in turn inspire more varied opponents at my LGS. To me that is a very good thing! I honestly can't remember the last time Ork players got such a good reason to get excited, and so as much as I would love some amazing alternative that no one has come up with, I'm on board with this change


That's not a faux pas, that's just changing your opinion based on new knowledge you gained. Which simply means that you are an intelligent person.

It's just that the world is stupid for thinking that this is not the normal way to do it.
Agreed 100%.

Too many people get dug into their side (not even beliefs, really-just "I'm right you're wrong") and refuse to change, no matter what.

Some people are just smarter than others. Any change that makes a bolter and a lasgun equal against anything short of a custodian...is a bad change.
You're right! That's why we should revert to the old wounding chart-make every point of Toughness matter.

Because a Lasgun is just as effective against Sentinels as it is against Marines. That's a bad change!

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
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 JNAProductions wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
leerm02 wrote:
So I'm going to do an internet faux pas here;
I think you guys have actually convinced me to change my mind.

Honestly, it was the maths that did it. I still would prefer some weird fluffy rule over t5, but after seeing the maths breakdown and discussion about how much useless rolling is gotten rid of, I'm on board with t5 orks.

The other factors, to me, is that this news will likely make the Ork players really happy and in turn inspire more varied opponents at my LGS. To me that is a very good thing! I honestly can't remember the last time Ork players got such a good reason to get excited, and so as much as I would love some amazing alternative that no one has come up with, I'm on board with this change


That's not a faux pas, that's just changing your opinion based on new knowledge you gained. Which simply means that you are an intelligent person.

It's just that the world is stupid for thinking that this is not the normal way to do it.
Agreed 100%.

Too many people get dug into their side (not even beliefs, really-just "I'm right you're wrong") and refuse to change, no matter what.

Some people are just smarter than others. Any change that makes a bolter and a lasgun equal against anything short of a custodian...is a bad change.
You're right! That's why we should revert to the old wounding chart-make every point of Toughness matter.

Because a Lasgun is just as effective against Sentinels as it is against Marines. That's a bad change!
The lasgun is supposed to be the bottom of the barrel - A bolter is a powerful weapon more than capable of penetrating Astartes - an ork without armor is no contest for it.

The issue has always been - the bolter being unperforming on the table for nearly the whole history of the game. Bolters are tecnically worse against orks than they've ever been...giving a 6+ save to an ork that used to get nothing...thats not good enough...now bolters have to wound a chaff infantry on 5's? GTFO.

It is completely backwards and everyone knows it. Is everything ork getting +1 T also? Bikes? Buggies?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/17 15:51:49


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

 bullyboy wrote:
Best thing about T5 6+ W1 Orks? My love for the assault cannon as my favourite 40k weapon

S6 AP-1 1D? Why, thank you very much kind sir. Even better when it's twins...

I know the feeling. When I saw this change all I could think was: Reaper Chaincannon goes "Brrrrrrtttttt!".
   
Made in us
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In My Lab

An Ork is still much less durable than a Marine against literally anything D1. Which is the majority of small arms fire in the game.

Currently (before Orks get their T5) it takes 3.6 BS3+ Bolter shots to kill an Ork. (3, if AP-1.) It takes 18 of the same to kill a Marine. (12, if AP-1.)

When Orks get T5, the numbers will increase to 5.4 and 4.5 In other words, an Ork is less than a third as tough as a Marine against Bolter base stats, and less than half as tough when AP-1.

If you somehow got an AP-4 Bolter, it would take 6 shots to kill a Marine, and 4.5 to kill the Ork. The Marine is STILL MORE DURABLE when their armor is entirely negated.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
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 JNAProductions wrote:
An Ork is still much less durable than a Marine against literally anything D1. Which is the majority of small arms fire in the game.

Currently (before Orks get their T5) it takes 3.6 BS3+ Bolter shots to kill an Ork. (3, if AP-1.) It takes 18 of the same to kill a Marine. (12, if AP-1.)

When Orks get T5, the numbers will increase to 5.4 and 4.5 In other words, an Ork is less than a third as tough as a Marine against Bolter base stats, and less than half as tough when AP-1.

If you somehow got an AP-4 Bolter, it would take 6 shots to kill a Marine, and 4.5 to kill the Ork. The Marine is STILL MORE DURABLE when their armor is entirely negated.

Almost half the weapons in the game have d2+ almost half have ap-1 or 2.

A primaris marine costs more than 2x and ork boy too (2x exactly if they go to 10 points). Has a fraction of the offense per point.


T5 ork boys - IMO is the dumbest stat change in the history of 40k. I've played for more than 20 years.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
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I scratch my head at the supposed fluff justifications for marines easily taking on orcs. Most works seem to feature orks being significantly stronger and tougher than the comparable level of marines. Belial is lucky to escape Ghaz at Kadillus. Rynn’s World feature the crimson fist chapter master struggling against the warboss that’s pummeling his chapter. I mean there’s even orks that are more or at least as powerful as the emperor in his prime. T5 orks aren’t out of line with the background.

The problem only lays with the wounding chart where the S3 lasgun and the S4 bolter are now just as effective. Move off the D6 and we could get that granularity. And really it’s not like marines are hurting for tools to kill T5 orks. Assault cannons still exist for loyalists. Reaper chain cannons* and berserkers still exist for chaos.

* pending the new codex making havocs take 1 reaper, heavy bolter, or autocannon, 1 heavy bolter or autocannon, and 2 lascannons or missile launchers.

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Vigo. Spain.

Bolters are wounding orks on 5+ thats true but most of the time that means a 5+ to outright kill the ork, something lasguns have not, having the ork then a 6+ chance to save.

Why does people keep taking just one stat instead of the whole picture to compare stuff? You cannot just take the S value of a weapon and ignore AP and damage and special rules to say they are just the same. I mean a fething heavy bolter and a disintegrator cannon have the same strenght. How is that even fluffy? Oh, the dissy cannon has ap -3? And just before 9th it had damage 2 vs damage 1 of the heavy bolter? Ignore it!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/17 17:07:09


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
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 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
I scratch my head at the supposed fluff justifications for marines easily taking on orcs. Most works seem to feature orks being significantly stronger and tougher than the comparable level of marines. Belial is lucky to escape Ghaz at Kadillus. Rynn’s World feature the crimson fist chapter master struggling against the warboss that’s pummeling his chapter. I mean there’s even orks that are more or at least as powerful as the emperor in his prime. T5 orks aren’t out of line with the background.

The problem only lays with the wounding chart where the S3 lasgun and the S4 bolter are now just as effective. Move off the D6 and we could get that granularity. And really it’s not like marines are hurting for tools to kill T5 orks. Assault cannons still exist for loyalists. Reaper chain cannons* and berserkers still exist for chaos.

* pending the new codex making havocs take 1 reaper, heavy bolter, or autocannon, 1 heavy bolter or autocannon, and 2 lascannons or missile launchers.


i find most people only think of orks to be like they were portrayed in the space marine game and seem to think that they should have a marine be able to face down the whole horde or orks single handedly before beating down the warboss. It doesn't matter to them any amount of actual book info liek how the orks almost killed the big E and a primarchs struggling and losing to orks being forced to withdraw from the field in a fighting retreat isn't something they are prepared to deal with. I guess since the Big E made the space marines to be genetically improved super soldiers based on base model humans it makes space marines better than what happened when the old ones created their genetically engineered from scratch to be unstoppable super soldiers to stop the necrons. But why worry abtou the lore when there is head cannon and video game references around

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Bolters and lasguns also perform equally well against Plague Marines and Necron Immortals as well as a bunch of other stuff I'm forgetting. I'm not seeing how T5 Orkz is suddenly the straw that broke the camels back immersion wise.
   
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 Castozor wrote:
Bolters and lasguns also perform equally well against Plague Marines and Necron Immortals as well as a bunch of other stuff I'm forgetting. I'm not seeing how T5 Orkz is suddenly the straw that broke the camels back immersion wise.

Yeah...don't expect a bolt gun to do a lot against a plauge marine and an immortal is paying 17 points to have T5 a plauge marine is 21...this ork is going to be paying significantly less than that not to mention...a lot less than the primaris marine as well...you might notice...this change is specifically targeting space marines - the army of str 4 spam. It doesn't really affect anyone else much.

Sisters too I suppose are also going to be boned.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/17 17:44:08


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 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
I scratch my head at the supposed fluff justifications for marines easily taking on orcs. Most works seem to feature orks being significantly stronger and tougher than the comparable level of marines. Belial is lucky to escape Ghaz at Kadillus. Rynn’s World feature the crimson fist chapter master struggling against the warboss that’s pummeling his chapter. I mean there’s even orks that are more or at least as powerful as the emperor in his prime. T5 orks aren’t out of line with the background.

The problem only lays with the wounding chart where the S3 lasgun and the S4 bolter are now just as effective. Move off the D6 and we could get that granularity. And really it’s not like marines are hurting for tools to kill T5 orks. Assault cannons still exist for loyalists. Reaper chain cannons* and berserkers still exist for chaos.

* pending the new codex making havocs take 1 reaper, heavy bolter, or autocannon, 1 heavy bolter or autocannon, and 2 lascannons or missile launchers.


To be fair, those are the biggest baddest orks or the group. An ork that can take on big E, a Primarch, or even a named space marine in 1on1 is a rarity. From what I recall usually a single marine can mow down plenty of orks boyz, but it's the numbers that get them at the end.

I don't have any lore myself to quote or be 100% certain, but I was always under the impression a naked marine was about just as tough as a regular ork boy. Thats why both matching at t4 made sense to me. Yeah an ork boy can take a hole to the gut and shrug it off, but half the time in the lore so can a marine it always seems.

As for the lasgun and bolter argument, bolters slowly becoming -1ap across the field and being 1 more strength matches the lore pretty well. If a lasgun somehow even manages to wound an ork, they can survive it even without armor. If a bolt gun manages to wound an ork, they dead because its a glorified giant gernade launcher

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/17 17:51:08


 
   
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A naked marine is not as tought as a ork boy. The ork boy can survive much more grievous wounds. And even if people complained about 2 wound marines, nobody compared them to boyz as they are comparing boyz now to marines.

Also a catachan is just a strong as an ork boy or a marine. Lets accept a range of 2-8 T cannot represent all the units in a lore accurate manner. Concessions must be made.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
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 Xenomancers wrote:
 Castozor wrote:
Bolters and lasguns also perform equally well against Plague Marines and Necron Immortals as well as a bunch of other stuff I'm forgetting. I'm not seeing how T5 Orkz is suddenly the straw that broke the camels back immersion wise.

Yeah...don't expect a bolt gun to do a lot against a plauge marine and an immortal is paying 17 points to have T5 a plauge marine is 21...this ork is going to be paying significantly less than that not to mention...a lot less than the primaris marine as well...you might notice...this change is specifically targeting space marines - the army of str 4 spam. It doesn't really affect anyone else much.

Sisters too I suppose are also going to be boned.

Immortals also have a 3+ save and get back up after you knock them down, and Plague Marines have a 3+ and reduce all damage by 1. Orks don't have anything like that. Every successful wound from a bolt rifle will kill an Ork Boy. They'll still die plenty easy.
   
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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Castozor wrote:
Bolters and lasguns also perform equally well against Plague Marines and Necron Immortals as well as a bunch of other stuff I'm forgetting. I'm not seeing how T5 Orkz is suddenly the straw that broke the camels back immersion wise.

Yeah...don't expect a bolt gun to do a lot against a plauge marine and an immortal is paying 17 points to have T5 a plauge marine is 21...this ork is going to be paying significantly less than that not to mention...a lot less than the primaris marine as well...you might notice...this change is specifically targeting space marines - the army of str 4 spam. It doesn't really affect anyone else much.

Sisters too I suppose are also going to be boned.

Immortals also have a 3+ save and get back up after you knock them down, and Plague Marines have a 3+ and reduce all damage by 1. Orks don't have anything like that. Every successful wound from a bolt rifle will kill an Ork Boy. They'll still die plenty easy.

We don't even know what orks free armywide rule is going to be...

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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 Xenomancers wrote:
Spoiler:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Castozor wrote:
Bolters and lasguns also perform equally well against Plague Marines and Necron Immortals as well as a bunch of other stuff I'm forgetting. I'm not seeing how T5 Orkz is suddenly the straw that broke the camels back immersion wise.

Yeah...don't expect a bolt gun to do a lot against a plauge marine and an immortal is paying 17 points to have T5 a plauge marine is 21...this ork is going to be paying significantly less than that not to mention...a lot less than the primaris marine as well...you might notice...this change is specifically targeting space marines - the army of str 4 spam. It doesn't really affect anyone else much.

Sisters too I suppose are also going to be boned.

Immortals also have a 3+ save and get back up after you knock them down, and Plague Marines have a 3+ and reduce all damage by 1. Orks don't have anything like that. Every successful wound from a bolt rifle will kill an Ork Boy. They'll still die plenty easy.

We don't even know what orks free armywide rule is going to be...

No, we don't. So let's wait until we do before freaking out about it. I doubt it'll be any better than FREE AP ALL THE TIME!
   
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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Castozor wrote:
Bolters and lasguns also perform equally well against Plague Marines and Necron Immortals as well as a bunch of other stuff I'm forgetting. I'm not seeing how T5 Orkz is suddenly the straw that broke the camels back immersion wise.

Yeah...don't expect a bolt gun to do a lot against a plauge marine and an immortal is paying 17 points to have T5 a plauge marine is 21...this ork is going to be paying significantly less than that not to mention...a lot less than the primaris marine as well...you might notice...this change is specifically targeting space marines - the army of str 4 spam. It doesn't really affect anyone else much.

Sisters too I suppose are also going to be boned.

Immortals also have a 3+ save and get back up after you knock them down, and Plague Marines have a 3+ and reduce all damage by 1. Orks don't have anything like that. Every successful wound from a bolt rifle will kill an Ork Boy. They'll still die plenty easy.

All these units also have (pending changes) far better shooting output than a squad of boyz. I also doubt this was specifically made to bone Marines, CSM of all flavors also favour S4 for anti-horde, Tyranids sometimes do depending on build, Tau and their S5 shooting is also affected and I'm sure there is stuff I'm forgetting.
   
 
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