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looked up what Red Pilgrim Miniatures is about

well, at least some weapons are 1:1 copies from GW and even if the Marines are not direct copies but just using similar elements, most of them having the direct copy of a GW Bolter

but shops are still selling the printed models from his designs, so if his patreon is shut down, not much difference for those who want his models

Did DMG get a takedown notice or did they just voluntarily pause operations for a few months? I don't back them so I can't read their posts.
I guess the logic for going after the merchants could be people making personal prints of proxies probably wouldn't buy your product directly anyways, where as merchants are selling goods in direct competition to GW?... Granted, said merchants may have been selling other prints that were the true reason for take down. That is if they were just selling DMG stuff and got taken down; yeah, that'd be weird, but don't they usually back multiple artists?

 kodos wrote:
looked up what Red Pilgrim Miniatures is about

well, at least some weapons are 1:1 copies from GW and even if the Marines are not direct copies but just using similar elements, most of them having the direct copy of a GW Bolter

but shops are still selling the printed models from his designs, so if his patreon is shut down, not much difference for those who want his models

The bloke who runs it used to spend his time making sculpts for the resin third party industry and other companies. Heresylabs, wargameexclusive, etc. Given that he hasn't changed his style or output really and his stuff for them is still on sale, it lends further credence to GW treating print differently to resin.

Frankly, at this stage, I'm not sure it qualifies as news anymore and may stop posting updates. It's pretty clear (in my mind at least), that there's been a re-adjustment in GW policy to tighten the screw on the print market moreso than they do the resin one. I also think (though YMMV) that frankly, it's stepped across that line that was drawn back after Chapterhouse. A fair amount of what they're going for is really public domain, no matter how much it might be usable in Warhammer games.

I just hope that they don't get emboldened by this and widen the scope of their attack back out to the third party resin companies again. If we end up back in 2010, the hobby will be poorer for it.

the Heresy Lab Marines I know off are based on 2nd Edi and Boardgames Artwork and and not very like the Primaris Marines, neither in weapons nor general design

and of course it is easier to shut down a patraeon or YT channel than a stand alone shop

I really hope we don't end up back at the Chapterhouse situation on either side as well. I don't think the hobby market benefits from it in any way. Heck no side really walked away with a solid win from Chapterhouse Court Case.


I do think moving forward that 3D printing designers and GW do need to move more together on certain fronts.


As for GW I suspect one reason they might be more aggressive with 3d printing is purely because cast models have a limit on how much of the market they can serve and deliver too. They can only expand so far before they hit limits of practical production and supply. 3D printing isn't "as" constrained by the same barriers; merchants can more freely start up to overcome production shortfall and even though 3D printers are no where near common; they are on a steady increase in ownership in the consumer market.

 Overread wrote:
I do think moving forward that 3D printing designers and GW do need to move more together on certain fronts.

no chance for that
a lot of the designers make their living from being as close to original GW models as possible instead of making something original

even if GW will add into the 3D printing buisness, no need for 3rd party designer to make what they already have

there is a bigger change that GW hires ArtelW and make his Eldar line the official models

GW misplayed things in their forecasting. I don't think they accounted for the way in which consumer grade resin printers would be able to compete with the output quality of a modelling studio in the business for 30 years. At the same time they doubled down on in-house manufacturing, sinking loads of cash into facilities in nottingham.

The runway for them making that investment back is far away. While I don't think 3d printing really threatens them that much in the short term, but its psychologically unnerving the mere fact that consumer resin printing has caught up to professional manufacturing in short order. And those at GW who look at things in a big picture lens are likely quite alarmed by the fact that an organisation that just invested many millions in a particular manufacturing process that is rapidly being challenged by innovative technology.

I was unfamiliar with Red Pilgrim so went to check them out. Frankly, I don't think they can have much complaint. Their models are using so many directly copied elements from the Space Marine line, from small elements all over the armour right up to entire weapons and iconography, it'd be almost impossible for someone without a good knowledge of the official GW SM line to distinguish the two lines from one another. If you're going to base your business on selling stuff clearly meant to be used in 40k you need to be a bit more subtle and, dare I say it, creative about it.

Yeah, after looking up Red Pilgrims stuff, the majority of it is a direct rip of GWs stuff (and not in the "we're on the right side of the Chapterhouse lawsuit" kind of way) can't say I feel bad about it. He definitely had sculpts that were enough of a step back from that to stand on their own, but that doesn't seem to have been his main focus.

And hello once again to everyone. As you can see, I have been unblocked. For this, a rather high price had to be paid - the removal of all the heroes, which at least somehow resemble the Space Marines. And, yes, it was the DMCA claim from GW, officially. Their next strike will most likely lead to the final closure of my page, this was also said quite officially. During these days, you sent me a lot of links on how to deal with this, but all this was beyond me alone, and it was easier to delete the indicated miniatures. Anyone who did not manage to download anything (and there were a lot of them), write to me (or to my friend Jeka, who helped me with the discord) here: https://discord.gg/8VmTaCnA or on FB: https://www.facebook.com/redpilgrims/. There will also be news on all issues that cannot be discussed on the Patreon site.
Due to all this running around and the sanctions imposed on the page, the promised space warrior hero is canceled, in place of it there will be an August release with Desert Hawks. It will be on the very last day of the month, but don't worry, all links will be active and available in September.

Well, once again I want to thank everyone who has supported me all this time. There were a LOT of kind words and advices, so many that I could not answer all of them personally. This is really great to know, that I'm not alone at this battlefield. Thank you friends! I will end with the phrase of one French military marshal of the WWI times, who just learned that his son died at the front: we will continue, gentlemen.

To all those saying tha this stuff was a step too far, it's funny how companies like Wargame Exclusive, Artel, or Tortuga and more get away with the exact same level of duplication with no problem. From the same artist nonetheless as well (because he used to sculpt this sort of stuff for them). One would think that if Games Workshop had a legal case that solid, they'd be C&Ding all those companies too.

Eh, I'm just a broken record at this point.

I do find it interesting that their price was 'remove anything that even remotely looks like a Space Marine and never touch the theme again or we'll sink you' rather than 'these one or two which feel like they infringe on point A&B'. That's definitely market control right there, nothing to do with legality.

 Ketara wrote:

And hello once again to everyone. As you can see, I have been unblocked. For this, a rather high price had to be paid - the removal of all the heroes, which at least somehow resemble the Space Marines. And, yes, it was the DMCA claim from GW, officially. Their next strike will most likely lead to the final closure of my page, this was also said quite officially. During these days, you sent me a lot of links on how to deal with this, but all this was beyond me alone, and it was easier to delete the indicated miniatures. Anyone who did not manage to download anything (and there were a lot of them), write to me (or to my friend Jeka, who helped me with the discord) here: https://discord.gg/8VmTaCnA or on FB: https://www.facebook.com/redpilgrims/. There will also be news on all issues that cannot be discussed on the Patreon site.
Due to all this running around and the sanctions imposed on the page, the promised space warrior hero is canceled, in place of it there will be an August release with Desert Hawks. It will be on the very last day of the month, but don't worry, all links will be active and available in September.

Well, once again I want to thank everyone who has supported me all this time. There were a LOT of kind words and advices, so many that I could not answer all of them personally. This is really great to know, that I'm not alone at this battlefield. Thank you friends! I will end with the phrase of one French military marshal of the WWI times, who just learned that his son died at the front: we will continue, gentlemen.

To all those saying tha this stuff was a step too far, it's funny how companies like Wargame Exclusive, Artel, or Tortuga and more get away with the exact same level of duplication with no problem. From the same artist nonetheless as well (because he used to sculpt this sort of stuff for them). One would think that if Games Workshop had a legal case that solid, they'd be C&Ding all those companies too.

Eh, I'm just a broken record at this point.

I do find it interesting that their price was 'remove anything that even remotely looks like a Space Marine and never touch the theme again or we'll sink you' rather than 'these one or two which feel like they infringe on point A&B'. That's definitely market control right there, nothing to do with legality.

Striking Artel (Russia), Tortuga (Ukraine), and Wargame Exclusive (Ukraine, though their eBay store seems to be based out of Costa Rica) is a lot harder, IP protections outside of the EU are significantly weaker and the authorities much less likely to care. Patreon, Kickstarter, and other US/EU based platforms on the other hand are obligated to enforce IP laws, so anyone based in these territories using those platforms is subject to content removal, etc.

Even still, as far as Artel W is concerned, GW did force removal of something like half their catalog 2-3 years back.

chaos0xomega wrote:


Striking Artel (Russia), Tortuga (Ukraine), and Wargame Exclusive (Ukraine, though their eBay store seems to be based out of Costa Rica) is a lot harder, IP protections outside of the EU are significantly weaker and the authorities much less likely to care. Patreon, Kickstarter, and other US/EU based platforms on the other hand are obligated to enforce IP laws, so anyone based in these territories using those platforms is subject to content removal, etc.

Even still, as far as Artel W is concerned, GW did force removal of something like half their catalog 2-3 years back.

That's a good point (although the fact they managed a removal of stuff from Artel W sort of undermines it - because it says they do have some legal power there). I suppose one could put together the argument (as you seem to be implying) that the only real difference is GW's ability to legally reach people; but the problem that runs into is that there are actually plenty of Patreons even still doing the exact same thing as Red Pilgrim who haven't had the metaphorical Black Spot yet. Laser Forge Miniatures Techmarines, ThatEvilOne's Emperors Children, Helforged Miniatures, and so forth.

That continued inconsistency is what keeps adding evidence to my mind that this is about print and market control rather actual IP - which is reinforced by the way they keep going about these different actions. Not only are resin and print treated differently, things are treated differently even within the print market to a degree. I suppose it could just be corporate schizophrenia though. Never underestimate the ability of large companies to be dumb as hell at times.

It's just as likely they simply haven't got around to doing anything about some of those creators yet. I'm not familiar enough with that part of the industry to say who the biggest players are but maybe they're just working their way down a list, possibly with some sort of sign-off required by GW corporate for each C&D, instead of just a mass-mailing out to everyone at once.

Wargame Exclusive said a few years ago that they talk to GW to see where the line is - they took down some shoulder pads and other bits IIRC. I'll see if I can find that post.

 Ketara wrote:
That's a good point (although the fact they managed a removal of stuff from Artel W sort of undermines it - because it says they do have some legal power there)

GW cannot get on Artel W banned, but they prevent him importing stuff to EU. Same way as you cannot shut down those people producing Nike shoes, but Nike can prevent that those are sold in EU/US

But to do this you need a strong claim on copyright (eg recasts)

While to shut down a Patreon (or Youtube Channel), they just need to be similar enough

and for why others are not already down, might be that GW does not know about them for now, or they are just doing one by one and not all at once

Or, like Slipspace said, they just haven't got around to people yet. I would imagine they are working through them in some order based on an intersection of their similarity to GWs product and the size (or perceived size) of the operation. A no-name patreon with 5 subs is much less likely to get hit than a patreon with 5000 subs, etc.

Also keep in mind that GWs legal department is apparently not very large, and these people aren't necessarily fans of the game or even all that familiar with the product line. They might look right on past some things that they don't immediately recognize as being imitations due to a lack of familiarity with the product. On top of that, some of these operations are a bit more savvy in their marketing, etc. Tortuga for example isn't as well known as Artel W and is a bit more creative with naming and keywords to avoid getting direct traffic from warhammer related search terms, etc. Unless GWs lawyers spend time scouring facebook groups, dakka, and other social media sources looking for leads Tortuga might not even be on their radar. More likely GWs lawyers are googling and search patreon/kickstarter for somewhat generic GW related search terms to see what comes up and going after stuff on that basis.

And that assumes that they are searching at all - I think a lot of their action comes from people submitting tips/leads via email, either competitors trying to sink others by bringing them to GWs attention or white knight fans that are doing GWs enforcement for them. I have encountered both types of people, personally.

Slipspace wrote:
It's just as likely they simply haven't got around to doing anything about some of those creators yet. I'm not familiar enough with that part of the industry to say who the biggest players are but maybe they're just working their way down a list, possibly with some sort of sign-off required by GW corporate for each C&D, instead of just a mass-mailing out to everyone at once.

If that's the case, than doubtless we'll see at least another ten patreons hit that I'm immediately aware of, followed by several third party bitz companies. Given that the resin ones have been around for yonks though, I doubt they're going to suddenly being getting C&D's in the mail.

Chaos0xomega wrote:Also keep in mind that GWs legal department is apparently not very large, and these people aren't necessarily fans of the game or even all that familiar with the product line. They might look right on past some things that they don't immediately recognize as being imitations due to a lack of familiarity with the product. On top of that, some of these operations are a bit more savvy in their marketing, etc. Tortuga for example isn't as well known as Artel W and is a bit more creative with naming and keywords to avoid getting direct traffic from warhammer related search terms, etc. Unless GWs lawyers spend time scouring facebook groups, dakka, and other social media sources looking for leads Tortuga might not even be on their radar. More likely GWs lawyers are googling and search patreon/kickstarter for somewhat generic GW related search terms to see what comes up and going after stuff on that basis.

Funnily enough, we did actually see that in Chapterhouse - pages from Dakka got pulled and submitted as evidence. So talking about how they missed Tortuga may well, in fact, now point them that way.

But this actually largely feeds into what I said about corporate schizophrenia. Left arm media-savvy intern not knowing what right arm full-time lawyer is doing or even headcase Board member who issues executive fatwa based on a feeling from an old model they saw back in the '90s and a Facebook post. Big companies are not always well-organised! So far, all I think can be asserted as fact is that independent resin-casting wargames companies seem to get more artistic leeway in line with the law, and less C&D's than vulnerable print design only companies based on Patreon/Kickstarter. I doubt we'll ever really know the reason behind all the inconsistencies beyond that level.

Heck, it could be a mishmash of everything we've all said combined! (Captain Planet style). Perhaps GW Legal collectively go a bit further over what's legal with print because they think they can get away with it, but each person in the legal department has their own individual line across which they issue C&D's, and none of them are really paying that much attention!

 Gregor Samsa wrote:
GW misplayed things in their forecasting. I don't think they accounted for the way in which consumer grade resin printers would be able to compete with the output quality of a modelling studio in the business for 30 years. At the same time they doubled down on in-house manufacturing, sinking loads of cash into facilities in nottingham.

The runway for them making that investment back is far away. While I don't think 3d printing really threatens them that much in the short term, but its psychologically unnerving the mere fact that consumer resin printing has caught up to professional manufacturing in short order. And those at GW who look at things in a big picture lens are likely quite alarmed by the fact that an organisation that just invested many millions in a particular manufacturing process that is rapidly being challenged by innovative technology.

I also think there's something of a massive boom with the launch of the photon mono (and subsequent super-sale of the old models of photon) right in the middle of a global pandemic where every tabletop wargamer suddenly had oodles of time sitting around indoors plus lump sums of stimulus money plus no way to keep up the feedback loop of going into GW shops+buying GW products+playing GW games.

the reason 3d printing is being cracked down on is suddenly 3d printing seems like a much more legitimate threat.

I know literally like 20-odd people who suddenly got into resin printing during quarantine, myself included, among a group of maybe 50 active tabletop gamers I know.

 Nurglitch wrote:
It's a pity people can't sell non-GW stuff.

It's a Real Pity that people try to push the boundaries so close and use terminology even we armchair quarterbacks know will draw GW's Ire to try and sell their stuff. I'm all for third part works and people doing similar items, but many of these are trying to skirt under the radar and crying when they get called out for it. If they want to ride the coat tails of GW, then they shouldn't be confused or baffled when GW yanks the free ride out from under them.

 Theophony wrote:

 Nurglitch wrote:
It's a pity people can't sell non-GW stuff.

It's a Real Pity that people try to push the boundaries so close and use terminology even we armchair quarterbacks know will draw GW's Ire to try and sell their stuff. I'm all for third part works and people doing similar items, but many of these are trying to skirt under the radar and crying when they get called out for it. If they want to ride the coat tails of GW, then they shouldn't be confused or baffled when GW yanks the free ride out from under them.

Oh, I took Nurglitch's post to mean "it's a pity non-GW stuff/original content doesn't sell as well as proxy market does," but maybe I read that wrong.

edit: and yeah, I think it may be a matter of when not if yet-to-be notified artists get a note from GW legal. There are some that have been around for years I only find out about in the last month. There's a brouhaha in one of the warhammer prints subs because a giant database of proxy files got DCMAd, now the mods are trying to work out if/how some of the content can be made available again ( I believe content that's been on thingiverse, not paid stuff).
edit 3: they just took the group into private mode, no more casually browsing without invite I guess.

edit 2: ahh, my bad, I think I misinterpreted the tone of the reply. i shouldn't come on here when I'm tired

well, we have lost a lot of files in the last year

not only free 3D printer files, but also most of the papercraft files are gone (all the good ones)

 kodos wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
That's a good point (although the fact they managed a removal of stuff from Artel W sort of undermines it - because it says they do have some legal power there)

GW cannot get on Artel W banned, but they prevent him importing stuff to EU. Same way as you cannot shut down those people producing Nike shoes, but Nike can prevent that those are sold in EU/US

This seems completely unenforcible. It would require customs officials to recognize IP infringing Space Marines on sight.

 PondaNagura wrote:

 Theophony wrote:

 Nurglitch wrote:
It's a pity people can't sell non-GW stuff.

It's a Real Pity that people try to push the boundaries so close and use terminology even we armchair quarterbacks know will draw GW's Ire to try and sell their stuff. I'm all for third part works and people doing similar items, but many of these are trying to skirt under the radar and crying when they get called out for it. If they want to ride the coat tails of GW, then they shouldn't be confused or baffled when GW yanks the free ride out from under them.

Oh, I took Nurglitch's post to mean "it's a pity non-GW stuff/original content doesn't sell as well as proxy market does," but maybe I read that wrong.

@PondaNagura: You read that correctly.

Theophony isn't wrong though, as there's certainly more incentive to "skirt under the radar" than there is to produce original work.

Yeah even before 3D printing, in the resin model days, I caught myself always having one of two reactions to a new line:
1) lame, it's just a 40k ripoff
2) nice, but I can't use this in 40k

There's been some lines recently that are their own thing but also clear 40k proxies that fit the aesthetic, like Maker Cult's dark mechanicum and feudal guard lines.

 Nurglitch wrote:
It's a pity people can't sell non-GW stuff.

That would require a large market BUYING non-GW stuff.

No point in being in business making what doesn't sell.

 Nurglitch wrote:
It's a pity people can't sell non-GW stuff.

That's only partially true, I think, as there are lots of designers that don't do GW stuff (like, for example, Artisan Guild) that are doing very well for themselves.

...of course, that usually mean D&D proxies.

 Albertorius wrote:

 Nurglitch wrote:
It's a pity people can't sell non-GW stuff.

That's only partially true, I think, as there are lots of designers that don't do GW stuff (like, for example, Artisan Guild) that are doing very well for themselves.

...of course, that usually mean D&D proxies.

Hasbro seems way less sue-happy than GW.

 Vulcan wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

 Nurglitch wrote:
It's a pity people can't sell non-GW stuff.

That's only partially true, I think, as there are lots of designers that don't do GW stuff (like, for example, Artisan Guild) that are doing very well for themselves.

...of course, that usually mean D&D proxies.

Hasbro seems way less sue-happy than GW.

Also, generic fantasy is generic.

You need to watch out around dragons though, or Anne McCaffery will be after you

 Nurglitch wrote:

 PondaNagura wrote:

 Theophony wrote:

 Nurglitch wrote:
It's a pity people can't sell non-GW stuff.

It's a Real Pity that people try to push the boundaries so close and use terminology even we armchair quarterbacks know will draw GW's Ire to try and sell their stuff. I'm all for third part works and people doing similar items, but many of these are trying to skirt under the radar and crying when they get called out for it. If they want to ride the coat tails of GW, then they shouldn't be confused or baffled when GW yanks the free ride out from under them.

Oh, I took Nurglitch's post to mean "it's a pity non-GW stuff/original content doesn't sell as well as proxy market does," but maybe I read that wrong.

@PondaNagura: You read that correctly.

Theophony isn't wrong though, as there's certainly more incentive to "skirt under the radar" than there is to produce original work.

People like expanding on a concept that hasn't really been explored by its original author, so sue them. Fanfic is a big thing for a reason. GW's made like 2 very slightly different sculpts in 23 years based on the idea of "heavily armored space elf with a crazy web gun and a spider theme who moves by flickering in and out of portals" I really have nothing against someone who reads the description, looks at the execution and finds it lacking, and feels like they could produce a really cool concept that matches the image in their heads better.

After all, it's not like your game concept is 100% all-original never-been-done-before-ever, I'm guessing you went out to create a game that captures the images in your head of kaiju/mecha combat based on media you've consumed. Creativity builds off others' ideas, it's nothing new.