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 DarknessEternal wrote:
Y'all were missing the point of "tell me which edition you first played".

When someone says X was the best edition, you can infer which one they played first. That's it, that's why they think it was the best. They're being an enormous baby.

Nope. That's just bad logic. You don't have any ability to determine or verify why someone likes something. You're just making a decree based on nothing at all.

Preference doesn't always boil down to nostalgia or first experiences. Sometimes its emotional, sometimes its analysis, sometimes its the feel of an edition, or even the group.

I can't think of many games where the first one (or the first one I played) is my favorite or the most memorable.
For Shadowrun its definitely 3rd, not 1st. Same for D&D. Pretty much everything White Wolf is extremely tainted now, so I don't even care.
I'd never go back to Civ1, Civ IV is probably mechanically one of the better ones, but I doubt I could tolerate the graphics again
Wizardry I: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord was my very first computer game, but it certainly doesn't even vaguely make the list of my favorites of the series, the genre or the medium.

For the warhammers, I'm not even sure anymore. Every edition has flaws, and so many of them are so similar I couldn't pick them apart without a lot of work. Somewhere in 4th to 6th would probably bother me the least, but I'm not sure which one. Age of Sigmar 1st edition was pure trash.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Y'all were missing the point of "tell me which edition you first played".

When someone says X was the best edition, you can infer which one they played first. That's it, that's why they think it was the best. They're being an enormous baby.

So...you're one of the people who believes the only people who like 9th are the people who started playing in 9th?

I have a bit of a different take on it. I've been playing 40k themed games since 2nd. Mostly the side games like Space Hulk, Necromunda, etc. because I simply didn't have the money to get involved in full on 40k. While I played a small Nid force in 2nd, it wasn't until 3rd came out that I was in a better position and started playing more actively.

While I don't think 3rd ed. was the best edition by any means, I do feel that no other edition has has more of an impact on the game as a whole. 4th cleaned it up a bit, but I feel that 5th was the worst (before 9th). I'm not saying it was as bad or unplayable as 9th currently is, but that it didn't add anything memorable to the game. I honestly can't say much about 6th as I skipped most of that edition due to life. Unlike most players though, I feel that 7th was the best edition so far. There is no doubt in my mind though that 9th is by far the worst edition to ever be put to print.

The reasons differ from the OP. The most noticeable thing about 5th ed was that was the start of changes to the missions since GW had almost completely pulled out of running events. Grand Tournaments and eventually Games Days had become non-existent outside of WHW. Some of the bigger players like Adepticon, NOVA, and the ITC, altering the missions on their own started to become more common. I first noticed it when I attended Adepticon at the tail end of 4th. While it was cool, it wasn't an issue since there were still 40k tournaments around to be found.

When I came back at the end of 6th, I see that it had only gotten worse. Most of the more popular events had kept on modifying the missions despite the edition change. Netlisting was also a very common thing that I also noticed in 6th. This may have been going on longer, but I wasn't around for that gap of time. Either way, it was pointless to get used to it since 7th had already been teased and it was all going to change, or at least it was supposed to.

7th dropped and we finally got the edition we had been waiting for and deserved. It was the first edition where players were no longer forced to take models they didn't like. Themed forces weren't limited to established alternate lists, like Iyanden, Deathwing/Ravenwing, etc. These were some of the highlights from 3rd-5th and instead of waiting for GW to give separate permission for more of those lists, players were free to build their own list with the models they liked. Even if they were from different armies. Sure there were broken combos, especially with allies, but it was the full on death of the standard FOC and and end to 'Tax' units that made it great.

Some of the game mechanics from 5th/6th didn't survive, which was an even bigger shame imo. They offered 2 modes of play. The traditional 'Eternal War' missions for those who preferred that style of play. A new 'Maelstrom' style of play was also introduced. I grew to love the 7th ed. 'Maelstrom' missions and still feel it's the most competitive mission pack we've ever had. Once I got comfortable with that format, I started looking into tournaments again and while I wasn't surprised at how hard it was to find a Maelstrom Tournament, it should've been fairly easy to find an Eternal War tournament. I was shocked to find very few of them, but more shocked that the Big Players were STILL playing their own system despite 2 edition changes. In addition to that, these events had ripped the heart out of 7th by restricting rules that opened up the game. First Allies, then soup style lists, eventually limiting players back down to single codex if non-imperial. This continued through to 9th with the Rule of 3 taking us back to 3rd/4th by creating a more Std. FOC like arena.

I agree with most people that the biggest downfall of 7th was the introduction of 'Formations' (or whatever they're called). I'm going to be fair here, since I don't believe that the concept was bad, just implementing them without a points cost associated with them. We still have Formations in 9th that are Matched Play legal in the Charadon books, but there appears to be some progress by giving them a cost, at least in the case of admech. The issue I have with them, is we're again back to specialized lists that are only allowed in the rules. This is what the 'Matched Play' mission drives players toward, but it's just a shame because the need for it was done away with at the start of 7th, and is the result of giving players what they think is good for the game instead of players playing the game they have written.

8th edition wasn't any better. Despite not having their rules included in yet another edition, tournaments refused to play it. Several players who learned under 8th and practiced the 8th ed. missions found an entirely different set of rules waiting for them when the moved into tournament play. Which they were still playing despite their rules not making it into 6th, 7th, or 8th. Netlisting was blatantly common as players would often show up with near complete armies that were carbon copies of winning event lists, but the players either didn't have the experience with the nuances of the list, or never understood the mechanics behind 'Maelstrom'.

9th edition is where the final pile of dirt was added to the grave and the tombstone erected on 'Competitive 40k'. There hasn't been a 40k tournament where players simply played the missions in the book. Several great mechanics are now lost under the lies that they somehow weren't 'competitive'. After 3 editions of destroying competitive mechanics to move the game forward, they finally managed to get their rules into the game, leaving us with a mission and system that is barely playable, let alone competitive.

-----
This thread, (and the other one similar to this), show that there are more players unhappy with this edition more than any other edition that I've seen. There are quite a few of us who are sitting on armies that were previously considered competitive, simply not included in 'Matched Play'. There are players sitting in a void who don't fit into the 'Narrative' mission set, and have no place in 'Competitive Matched Play'. There are groups going back to earlier editions, or adapting earlier editions missions into 9th, just so that they have something to do while waiting. Others have simply left.

GW is supposed to be listening to the community more now than ever. They've got a system in place to circumvent the wait between codex releases to address mis-pointed units, or even rules. Despite that, we've already seen the release of 2 'Tournament' books that have failed to provide us with a functional system or access for us to display our hobby. There is little hope that the ChapApp this year will provide anything new, and we're remaining ever more optimistic that 10th will allow us to play again.

GW is supposed to be listening to the community more now than ever.

Except they are not, in fact from their behavior it looks like they are going to burn down the TT game, lock everybody out and make as much cash as they can before they hype sale the IP to another company or move to a different media.

Both the outer circle and arch have done great videos explaining this from the business side of things.

 aphyon wrote:
Both the outer circle and arch have done great videos explaining this from the business side of things.

I'm sure they have.

 aphyon wrote:

GW is supposed to be listening to the community more now than ever.

Except they are not, in fact from their behavior it looks like they are going to burn down the TT game, lock everybody out and make as much cash as they can before they hype sale the IP to another company or move to a different media.

Both the outer circle and arch have done great videos explaining this from the business side of things.

Please folks, don't be like poor Aphyon here. Always use spray paint in well ventilated areas, don't sniff your glue, & never ever lick metal minis (even if they are supposedly "white metal").

I do agree with the general principle though, GW is making more and more decisions which can only be described as anti-consumer in the pursuit of increased profits.
They work, so they keep doing them and they're taking them to the next level.

They've nailed their marketing but they're not any better as a company.

 aphyon wrote:

GW is supposed to be listening to the community more now than ever.

Except they are not, in fact from their behavior it looks like they are going to burn down the TT game, lock everybody out and make as much cash as they can before they hype sale the IP to another company or move to a different media.

Both the outer circle and arch have done great videos explaining this from the business side of things.

Outer Circle's brand is misinformed bitching.

As for the other guy, well, I have a poor opinion of him, but that's a political disagreement. So not kosher for this board.

Please folks, don't be like poor Aphyon here. Always use spray paint in well ventilated areas, don't sniff your glue, & never ever lick metal minis (even if they are supposedly "white metal").

Oh fun straight to personal insults.

How about we stick with the discussion about GW as a corporation is making business decisions in relation to their target customer base/fans, marketing etc.. and how those decisions are well known signs about how large corporations behave?

'facts don't care about your feelings' rather or not you like the person(s) making valid points.

Outer Circle's brand is misinformed bitching.

Interesting take, i found his cost analysis related to plastic injection mold production in a general industrial sense quite well researched

ccs wrote:

 aphyon wrote:

GW is supposed to be listening to the community more now than ever.

Except they are not, in fact from their behavior it looks like they are going to burn down the TT game, lock everybody out and make as much cash as they can before they hype sale the IP to another company or move to a different media.

Both the outer circle and arch have done great videos explaining this from the business side of things.

Please folks, don't be like poor Aphyon here. Always use spray paint in well ventilated areas, don't sniff your glue, & never ever lick metal minis (even if they are supposedly "white metal").

Nah - he is actually onto something.

3d printing is getting better and cheaper than ever. Selling overcosted models as a business plan is going the way of blockbuster. They would be foolish not to see it.

 aphyon wrote:

'facts don't care about your feelings' rather or not you like the person(s) making valid points.

Cool out, swastika dice, you've already name dropped one of the most infamously racist Warhammer influencers, we don't need Ben Shapiro quotes up in here to wash that down. Arch's point, as distasteful as it is to even engage with, is based off of the immanent financial doom of a company... going from strength to strength right now, mostly off the back of enormous brand loyalty? I'm not a fan of how new GW runs their show, and am pretty vocal about it, but the numbers don't lie. Sure, there's nosuch thing as too bigto fail but... Arch's theory is weak and pure speculation at best, and tbh? Aside from him being a spiteful little racist, have you seen the internet slapfights he gets into? He's barely articulate, let alone smart, thinks just re-iterating his argument over and over somehow counts toward being convincing, and has an unpleasant habit of sicking his fans on his foes because he's leaned really hard into the YouTube grifter thing.

Tldr arch is a shitheel, his theory is wack, and he has the social skills of a roadkill cane toad.

 aphyon wrote:

Outer Circle's brand is misinformed bitching.

Interesting take, i found his cost analysis related to plastic injection mold production in a general industrial sense quite well researched

Like Arch (whose statements on Dwarf magic resistance being about belief rather than an inherent quality of the race themselves come to mind), he spreads a lot of lore misconceptions, like Khorne ever being about "honor".

That said, in regards to that, I don't think GW has to worry. At most, they'll switch manufacturing methods. As the law stands, they are the only ones who can produce authentic 40k miniatures. I don't think that is necessarily a good thing, but that's what it is.

 aphyon wrote:

GW is supposed to be listening to the community more now than ever.

Except they are not...

They are, they're just listening to all the wrong people. I don't think I need to explain any further.

 posermcbogus wrote:

 aphyon wrote:

'facts don't care about your feelings' rather or not you like the person(s) making valid points.

Cool out, swastika dice, you've already name dropped one of the most infamously racist Warhammer influencers, we don't need Ben Shapiro quotes up in here to wash that down. Arch's point, as distasteful as it is to even engage with, is based off of the immanent financial doom of a company... going from strength to strength right now, mostly off the back of enormous brand loyalty? I'm not a fan of how new GW runs their show, and am pretty vocal about it, but the numbers don't lie. Sure, there's nosuch thing as too bigto fail but... Arch's theory is weak and pure speculation at best, and tbh? Aside from him being a spiteful little racist, have you seen the internet slapfights he gets into? He's barely articulate, let alone smart, thinks just re-iterating his argument over and over somehow counts toward being convincing, and has an unpleasant habit of sicking his fans on his foes because he's leaned really hard into the YouTube grifter thing.

Tldr arch is a shitheel, his theory is wack, and he has the social skills of a roadkill cane toad.

I see civil discourse is not your forte, not sure about your dice reference, and if you think sarcastic humor about historical things the British empire did in the 1700s to stamp out slavery, the actions of the Ashanti empire, or quoting a black comedian taken out of context by detractors makes him a racist there is nothing i can do to help you entertain reasonable debate. None of this makes Shapiro's quote any less true as a statement of reality. or would you prefer something from vaush?

Financial doom isn't what the point was about, it was about a change in the direction GWs marketing is going, changing the target demographic, they are literally teaming up with HASBRO. do you think HASBRO cares about the TT game or the lore or the fanbase when they can market the IP to a far wider market? With the potential of a much larger profit profile?

 aphyon wrote:

I see civil discourse is not your forte

Facts about Arch's video about gnoblars don't care about your feelings. Stop clogging the thread with your apologetics and slippery goalposts.

 aphyon wrote:

Financial doom isn't what the point was about, it was about a change in the direction GWs marketing is going, changing the target demographic, they are literally teaming up with HASBRO. do you think HASBRO cares about the TT game or the lore or the fanbase when they can market the IP to a far wider market? With the potential of a much larger profit profile?

Do you know how often and how long ago people have quoted a Hasbro buyout and how "GW is dumbing down things for kids"? Yet they literally put out a video of a kreiger disembowling an orc and then edited a shovel into it. Hasbro quality material right there.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
So...you're one of the people who believes the only people who like 9th are the people who started playing in 9th?

Nah. Dim thinks we're all babies who love the edition we started with the most.

I know 2nd Ed isn't the best edition of 40k. It's vehicle rules were great, but HTH combat was an absolute mess, and the game was basically hero-hammer incarnate.

2nd Ed worked when it was applied to Necromunda.

 oni wrote:
They are, they're just listening to all the wrong people. I don't think I need to explain any further.

By the wrong people do you specifically mean competitive players?

In the other thread you stated:

What I see consistently drive players away, new and veterans, are WAAC/TFG players. These people generally have a low appreciation (or none at all) for the other aspects of the hobby (e.g. Modeling, Painting, the Lore) and are so focused on rules and competitive game play to the detriment of other players 'complete hobby experience' that it creates a toxic and discouraging environment.

And yet they made a paint rule that encourages hobbying, didn't they?

There's a crusade system, right? They rewrote the Maelstrom rules.

How exactly are they only listening to only competitive players?

I'd be wary of ascribing GW's anti-customer policies to a desire to sell off their franchise. Mainly because anti-customer practises have basically been their forte for at least the last 10-15 years.

Not saying you're wrong, mind, just that I'm not sure the current evidence is strong enough to support this theory.

That said, it does make me wonder about GW's recent efforts to either shut down people making 40k content or else get them to work for GW. Could this be an effort to tighten their grip on their IP in preparation for a later sale?

But then GW has been lawyer-happy in the past when it comes to their IP so maybe it's just more of that.

 posermcbogus wrote:

 aphyon wrote:

I see civil discourse is not your forte

Facts about Arch's video about gnoblars don't care about your feelings. Stop clogging the thread with your apologetics and slippery goalposts.

So you have no legitimate position to defend or point of debate? very well i accept you're surrender.

That said, it does make me wonder about GW's recent efforts to either shut down people making 40k content or else get them to work for GW. Could this be an effort to tighten their grip on their IP in preparation for a later sale?

I think it is the scope of things now, not only going after fan animators, i mean we were all amused with the chapter house case where GW was trying to claim copyright on just about everything including historical weapons & armor. Now they are going after game modders who give away free game upgrades to products not even made by GW but under contract for the IP.

 vipoid wrote:
That said, it does make me wonder about GW's recent efforts to either shut down people making 40k content or else get them to work for GW. Could this be an effort to tighten their grip on their IP in preparation for a later sale?

It's because of Warhammer+.

Just as GW wants to be the hobby, they want to be the singular source of streaming content for this sort of thing. If they could go after lore and batrep channels, they would.

If I were GW execs I would be desperately trying to kill off the tabletop game. Its too expensive, convoluted and clearly not an aspect of their IP they are interested in dedicating resources to.

With the increasing revenue they are discovering through royaltys and licensing, if I were them I would position the tabletop game as a historic necessity to imprint their brand. But that time is over. The future of GW is moving its IP into other media. That is way cheaper, less warehousing, no manufacturing factories and supply chain management and so on.


It would probably be good for wargamers too. GW doesn't want to invest in a good tabletop game, they want to sell models. An end to 40k as we know it would see other competitors rush into the market and almost assuredly put out a better quality TABLETOP WARGAME.

Times change.

 Gregor Samsa wrote:
If I were GW execs I would be desperately trying to kill off the tabletop game. Its too expensive, convoluted and clearly not an aspect of their IP they are interested in dedicating resources to.

It's pretty much what they devote almost all of their resources towards. And they're making tons of money off of it.

Saying GW should ditch their tabletop game is like saying McDonald's needs to get out of selling food.

Right but Mcdonald's real business model is owning land in incredibly valuable locations. The franchise owners struggle to make money from all but the most desirable franchise locations, while Mcdonalds proper makes oodles from owning vast tracts of land that they pump cheap food out of. This is well documented.

GW is playing with fire with the tabletop. Its costs are through the roof. Compared to parlaying this brand identity into a fully digital media to get inline with the world we live in today and what will come tomorrow, it would make me anxious as a GW accountant watching them dump millions into a fancy plastic toy making factory housed in the UK.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gregor Samsa wrote:
If I were GW execs I would be desperately trying to kill off the tabletop game. Its too expensive, convoluted and clearly not an aspect of their IP they are interested in dedicating resources to.

It's pretty much what they devote almost all of their resources towards. And they're making tons of money off of it.

Saying GW should ditch their tabletop game is like saying McDonald's needs to get out of selling food.

To be fair, MaccyD's main source of income is real estate though.

 aphyon wrote:

 posermcbogus wrote:

 aphyon wrote:

I see civil discourse is not your forte

Facts about Arch's video about gnoblars don't care about your feelings. Stop clogging the thread with your apologetics and slippery goalposts.

So you have no legitimate position to defend or point of debate? very well i accept you're surrender.

I pulled Arch apart. I told you to quit dragging in losers whose job it is to have bad opinions on politics - a banned topic - on internet, and instead you dragged in another one. I told you to stay on topic, and you're still trying to chase this garbage. Trying to frame me as illegitimate because I've not got the same early 2000s keyboard warrior "I was number 3 in my highschool debateb club" tone as you is just straight up childish. You wanna keep going, let's head to PMs.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Do you know how often and how long ago people have quoted a Hasbro buyout and how "GW is dumbing down things for kids"? Yet they literally put out a video of a kreiger disembowling an orc and then edited a shovel into it. Hasbro quality material right there.

Wait, how is that something special? You can watch worse stuff in 45 min of any regular history lesson at school. It is disembowlment something special and taboo in other countries, in like you have to be an adult to have seen depicted somewhere. Asking because I know that some western countries have really strange age law for other things too.

Karol wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Do you know how often and how long ago people have quoted a Hasbro buyout and how "GW is dumbing down things for kids"? Yet they literally put out a video of a kreiger disembowling an orc and then edited a shovel into it. Hasbro quality material right there.

Wait, how is that something special? You can watch worse stuff in 45 min of any regular history lesson at school. It is disembowlment something special and taboo in other countries, in like you have to be an adult to have seen depicted somewhere. Asking because I know that some western countries have really strange age law for other things too.

Law, no.
But generally disembowelments aren't a thing for kids entertainment. And it does feel odd to have to explain that to someone.

Hasbro is generally known for brightly colored plastic toys and board games. Though some of their divisions are more late-teen early 20s oriented (like Wizards of the Coasts)

I am not think of entertainment. But for example my last month of school we watched a ton of movies, thanks to some classes being online. And we got to see everything, executed people in the streets, women killed by boming runs, hanged people. Had to watch a movie about Umschlagplatz and Dreblinka. Then another one about Wolyn massacers. The purge of Warsaw durning the Uprising. And I am in a sports school, I only get 4 hours of history per week. Someone in regular highschool can have as much as 6, and social studies classes on top of it.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gregor Samsa wrote:
If I were GW execs I would be desperately trying to kill off the tabletop game. Its too expensive, convoluted and clearly not an aspect of their IP they are interested in dedicating resources to.

It's pretty much what they devote almost all of their resources towards. And they're making tons of money off of it.

Saying GW should ditch their tabletop game is like saying McDonald's needs to get out of selling food.

To be fair, MaccyD's main source of income is real estate though.

Err they take a yearly franchise fee and a portion of all sales and the franchisee has to upfront a ton of money.