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Made in us
Water-Caste Negotiator




Les Etats Unis

epronovost wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Do you actually know what a Norn-Queen is? It's a giant reproductive organism. It doesn't have psychic powers or weapons of any kind. They don't leave the Bioships.
What you are describing is a Heirophant Bio-Titan.


Norn Queen are a reproductive organism that lives in symbiosis an inside a Dominatrix, the largest and most powerful bio-titans of the tyranids, a monster that exceeds in power and strength Heirophants by quite a margin. Turns out that the Hive Mind, which is the collective consciousness of all Norn Queens, isn't dumb to the point of not considering its most important organism worthy of the best protection and defense available.

Seriously, most of Uriel Ventris books could be described as "my OC Space Marine Captains defeats the strongest dudes in every faction". It's basically professionally published bad fanfiction level of writing. It's filled with idiocies like that or the "I scared death with a weapon carried by Eldar militia".


Since you believe that the reason why stories such as the Uriel books you mention are the result of bad writing tainting a good setting, could you give us some examples of stories which contain lore-accurate depictions of a Space Marine raids? I'm not too up-to-date on my Black Library, but I am a proud owner of the 8E Chaos codex, which includes descriptions of battles such as "an Imperial Knight army vs. shipful of Robot Dragons" and "That one time the Alpha Legion stole a planet."

Dudeface wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Is there another game where players consistently blame each other for the failings of the creator?

If you want to get existential, life for some.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Auckland, NZ

epronovost wrote:

Norn Queen are a reproductive organism that lives in symbiosis an inside a Dominatrix, the largest and most powerful bio-titans of the tyranids, a monster that exceeds in power and strength Heirophants by quite a margin. Turns out that the Hive Mind, which is the collective consciousness of all Norn Queens, isn't dumb to the point of not considering its most important organism worthy of the best protection and defense available.

The creature riding a Dominatrix isn't a norn queen.
I know one of the wikis says it is, but they have not cited a source for that information, so who knows where they got it from. I've done a fair bit of looking through old books, and haven't turned up anything in support of it being one. Rather books like Hive War describe the rider as being a form of tyranid 'as far advanced beyond ordinary Tyranid Warriors as Tyranid Warriors are beyond the genetically constructed sphincter portals of the bio-ships'.

The actual bits of fluff about norn queens in Advanced Space Crusade and Warriors of Ultramar describe them as being immense several hundred meter tall creatures, wired into a giant room within a hive ship. A dominatrix is big, but it ain't big enough to contain something that size.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/14 02:54:37


 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




If I remember correctly the SM in advanced space crusade infiltrating the tyranid mother ship were indeed scouts.

Also that a MKvii can fit an standard house dosent mean that he is able to fight inside one with any level of comfort.

I could trasverse the inner dome of the Vatican Saint Peter Church... But I would be completelly screwed if forced to fight a more nimble foe in such a crumbled space.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

Vatsetis wrote:
Given that 99% of a SM Chapter Firepower is in their space Fleet (crewed mainly by chapter serfs and servitors) and that 99% of the IOM firepower is not in the hands of the Adeptus Astartes... and given that the IOM has no moral restictions on ussing indiscriminate firepower even against its own population... wouldnt the typical Astartes mission look pretty much like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yufzbEWa9TQ

No surprise a high number of Space Marines turn traitors since the IOM way of fighting war denies the porpouse of their very existence... it must be hugely frustrating to sacrifice your own humanity and decades of constant training to achieve a level of perfection that has no practical use.

Why does the 40K setting do so much to undermine the military significance of the poster boy faction?


lol please don't compare space marines to the past two decades of utter failure in military doctrine....it's insulting to 40k

Typical dakkadakka reaction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmXRQeJLhtw 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Actually that video was reflecting the "huge success" of the first Gulf War in 1991.

But sure its insulting to compare one endless and pointless military cuaqmire with another (futuristic and fictional) one...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/14 06:33:46


 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

Vatsetis wrote:
Actually that video was reflecting the "huge success" of the first Gulf War in 1991.

But sure its insulting to compare one endless and pointless military cuaqmire with another (futuristic and fictional) one...


Nah IoM is much better at vassal'ing and subjugating enemies - plus at least they're honest about what they do and why

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/14 06:55:37


Typical dakkadakka reaction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmXRQeJLhtw 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Vatsetis wrote:
If I remember correctly the SM in advanced space crusade infiltrating the tyranid mother ship were indeed scouts.
Scouts, Marines and Terminators.

Also that a MKvii can fit an standard house dosent mean that he is able to fight inside one with any level of comfort.
"If you want comfort, son, the Marines is not for you!"

I could trasverse the inner dome of the Vatican Saint Peter Church... But I would be completelly screwed if forced to fight a more nimble foe in such a crumbled space.
If you have nigh-impervious armor and a big gun, who gives a #$*&?. If you could kill someone by stomping on them . . . You keep going on about how heavy Marines are, just use it as a weapon. A Terminator doesn't have to "fight" a human, it could fall on an opponent and kill them. A Marine could just trample his immediate opponent, and said opponent couldn't dodge because they're stuck in the same tunnel the Marine is.

Marines are good at boarding vessels partly because they're the biggest thing in every hallway.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Yes sir!

Thats definetly the check mate to this thread...

I surrender and expect your graceful mercy...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/14 08:55:41


 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Curvaceous wrote:You can rely on the sourcebooks: chapter approved articles and background sections.
The sourcebooks which feature artwork that has Space Marines fighting in massive cavernous halls and cathedral complexes?
There are two reasons. One, they aren’t encumbered by things like needing space for the point of view or video game “camera,” having to make shooting galleries and other fun sequences, and for the odd circumstance of having one or two characters instead of two or more squads.
But the games *are* required to create a setting where Space Marines can feasibly run around in a variety of environments, including the bowels of a starship or forge complex. The same "this only exists so that the player can go there!" mentality could just as easily be applied to the tabletop. After all, do you think GW would create a Zone Mortalis set with doors that Space Marines couldn't go through, but guardsmen could?

Second and more importantly, they’re the source. The reason the vidya was made and the reasons people buy it are the concepts from the source material.
Absolutely - but the artwork from those other sources also supports these giant cavernous chambers and archways.

But like we know the ceilings need to be high for the game camera and the gameplay. What’s the equivalent that for the 2019 updated chaos codex, or widdle Jes Goodwin sitting next to all that taped-together a4?
Zone Mortalis, in fact! The corridors need to be wide enough to allow Space Marines to move through them, or else Space Marines can't play in Zone Mortalis battlefields.

As much as you can claim that "things are only big so that the player can see", I can counterclaim that "things are only large enough in the art and tabletop so that Space Marines can fit in there". The thing is, I consider that to be fine, and acceptable as canon for the world. It works because it works.

Basically, which Space Marine is not fully 100% canon, and anything in it *could* be questionable (for example, picking up Astartes grade weaponry just lying around before a boss fight), we can cross-reference anything with other depictions of things in the rest of the setting and compare them - and Space Marine's architecture holds up well.


They/them

 
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The same "this only exists so that the player can go there!" mentality could just as easily be applied to the tabletop. After all, do you think GW would create a Zone Mortalis set with doors that Space Marines couldn't go through, but guardsmen could?


I mean, that actually sounds like a great idea which would introduce really cool tactical possibilities and challenges.

You're trying to get from A to B. There's a route that goes direct but is small, which means that your bigger, stronger stuff can't go through it, and another route that is longer but more open.

Do you split your forces and send your weaker elements (scouts, in the space marine example) down the quicker route, hoping they can hold against whatever they find until the heavier hitters can get there? Or do you stick together and hope your combined force can retake it from the enemy if they beat you to the objective?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/14 11:31:07


The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The same "this only exists so that the player can go there!" mentality could just as easily be applied to the tabletop. After all, do you think GW would create a Zone Mortalis set with doors that Space Marines couldn't go through, but guardsmen could?


I mean, that actually sounds like a great idea which would introduce really cool tactical possibilities and challenges.

You're trying to get from A to B. There's a route that goes direct but is small, which means that your bigger, stronger stuff can't go through it, and another route that is longer but more open.

Do you split your forces and send your weaker elements (scouts, in the space marine example) down the quicker route, hoping they can hold against whatever they find until the heavier hitters can get there? Or do you stick together and hope your combined force can retake it from the enemy if they beat you to the objective?
There *is* an element of this in Zone Mortalis, to be fair! Certain passageways are too small for Terminators/40mm based models, and all but the wider passageways are restrictive to larger things like Dreadnoughts, which are the largest vehicles (or oftentimes only!) you'll really see in ZM. You definitely do end up with this aspect when you have to consider your routes and what troops can actually pass through - and also an aspect of punching your way through passageways (using lascutters and chainfists to carve through locked doors)!


They/them

 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut



Bamberg / Erlangen

And in reality, nobody will ever care enough to actually put that kind of terrain on the board.

How many times did people make use of the Chimera's "amphibean" ability back in the day?

Maybe for a different style of game like Kill Team, but I don't see it for mainline 40k.

Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Vatsetis wrote:
You know that in any complex system tragedy and comedy can exist side by side... Or are you so naive that you cant understand such mixture??
I don't know - can you not understand it?

I ask again, as you refuse to put it in writing - what parts of 40k *are* rational to you? What parts *do* you like? What things *are* accepted in your suspension of disbelief? Psychic powers? Daemons? Power armour? Sentient walking fungi?

Make your points crystal clear, or risk them being lost.


I like the background given in the "Space Hulk" game and how it translates into a masterful asymetric tactical experienxe in which the Astartes have a firepower advantage but suffer greatly doe to their limited movement options compared to the OPFOR.
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Vatsetis wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Vatsetis wrote:
You know that in any complex system tragedy and comedy can exist side by side... Or are you so naive that you cant understand such mixture??
I don't know - can you not understand it?

I ask again, as you refuse to put it in writing - what parts of 40k *are* rational to you? What parts *do* you like? What things *are* accepted in your suspension of disbelief? Psychic powers? Daemons? Power armour? Sentient walking fungi?

Make your points crystal clear, or risk them being lost.


I like the background given in the "Space Hulk" game and how it translates into a masterful asymetric tactical experienxe in which the Astartes have a firepower advantage but suffer greatly doe to their limited movement options compared to the OPFOR.
What? That doesn't answer my question about your stance on suspension of disbelief in 40k?

Allow me to repeat my comment: "what parts of 40k *are* rational to you? What parts *do* you like? What things *are* accepted in your suspension of disbelief? Psychic powers? Daemons? Power armour? Sentient walking fungi?"


They/them

 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




I gave a relevant example of what "I Like" in the 40k setting.

Im not going to answer anything else of a question that is obviously framed with bad faith and hostility.
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Vatsetis wrote:
I gave a relevant example of what "I Like" in the 40k setting.
You answered the least committal aspect of the question I asked, and the part which just so happens to avoid answering anything relevant about the topic that you raised.

Why don't you answer the rest?
Im not going to answer anything else of a question that is obviously framed with bad faith and hostility.
Asking for you to commit to an answer and standard of fictional disbelief is bad faith?

You *do* realise what that says about you, yes?


They/them

 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Let my guess... That Im a Trol??

Suspension of desbelief has really not much to do with abstract concepts such as "demons" or "fungi orks" and much more to do with how those concepts are portrayed and executed.

Astartes could be something acceptable as a basic concept, but they have became so bloated and turned into the "swiss knife without any weakness" of the setting so much that they have became silly.

For instance, its a silly contradiction that Astartes are simultaneously the most diverse and one of the smallest organisations in the IOM.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/14 13:15:23


 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Vatsetis wrote:
Let my guess... That Im a Trol??
That you're certainly being dishonest, and obscuring your position on the topic that you brought up.

Suspension of desbelief has really not much to do with abstract concepts such as "demons" or "fungi orks" and much more to do with how those concepts are portrayed and executed.
No, it absolutely *does* have everything to do with the suspension of disbelief. Daemons, Titans, and sentient walking fungi are things which completely require the suspension of disbelief to accept as part of the fictional setting.

My question is why these are things that you can accept, but Space Marines being functional and effective is not - if you *do* even recognise daemons and orks as part of your disbelief.

I want to know what your standards are, so that I can pin down exactly what you consider to be part of 40k, what expectations you hold, and how much of 40k you actually pay attention to, so that we can actually *have* a good faith discussion.

Astartes could be something acceptable as a basic concept, but they have became so bloated and turned into the "swiss knife without any weakness" of the setting so much that they have became silly.
They very clearly *have* weaknesses. However, such weaknesses are not "lol they can't do anything and they only exist as a relic of a bygone era".

*Actual* Astartes weaknesses would be:
- Their small numbers, in that they cannot be everywhere, or operate on the scale they used to in the Heresy. There are still enough Astartes to make a difference across the Imperium's battlefields, but they are still small in number. As a result, they cannot garrison worlds, for example.
- Their pride and isolationism. Space Marines aren't exactly best known as team players, and their own personal traditions and codes can often brush against other Imperium organisations.
- Their own cults and traditions, and genetic heritages. Many Chapters have rituals and beliefs that would horrify the Ecclesiarchy, and many other Chapters have ways of waging war or genetic defects that cripple them on a tactical level. While these might be beneficial in some fights, others might be less favourable, and when not in combat, these could further affect Astartes forces, as well as their relationship with their allies.

For instance, its a silly contradiction that Astartes are simultaneously the most diverse and one of the smallest organisations in the IOM.
This is hardly contradictory, considering how Astartes are organised as decentralised Chapters who have been permitted to form their own cultures and fiefdoms. Unlike other more standardised organisations, Space Marines have the time and space to develop their own subcultures and methods of waging war. It is because of their smaller size and their separation across the Imperium that they have such diverse cultures and ideologies.


They/them

 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Well we are talking about completelly different topics... And is beyond my linguistic habilities to make you understand my POV.

So I suppose we must "agree in that we disagree", shake hands and move into another topic.

I certainly have nothing else of relevance to add about the issue at hand.
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
This is hardly contradictory, considering how Astartes are organised as decentralised Chapters who have been permitted to form their own cultures and fiefdoms. Unlike other more standardised organisations, Space Marines have the time and space to develop their own subcultures and methods of waging war. It is because of their smaller size and their separation across the Imperium that they have such diverse cultures and ideologies.


So do Imperial Guard regiments, even if they come from the same homeworld they often have vastly different traditions and approaches. Every single thing you said about marines there also applies to the Guard.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/14 13:58:57


The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Vatsetis wrote:Well we are talking about completelly different topics...
... you brought this up?! You're the one who brought up this idea of the fusion between tragedy and comedy in the setting, and therefore the interplay of playing the setting straight and fantastical.

You literally said:
Vatsetis wrote:Problem is the amount of desbelieve suspension that you need just for SM to do the most basic stuff.
(https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/800255.page#11197721)
You're the one who brought up suspension of disbelief - so you can elaborate on what your tolerance for that is.

So I suppose we must "agree in that we disagree", shake hands and move into another topic.
And if your other topic is similarly vague, inflammatory, and couched in obscuring your stance on the topic, I'll say exactly the same things I did here.

I certainly have nothing else of relevance to add about the issue at hand.
Evidently, as you still seem unable to answer a fairly basic question.

A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
This is hardly contradictory, considering how Astartes are organised as decentralised Chapters who have been permitted to form their own cultures and fiefdoms. Unlike other more standardised organisations, Space Marines have the time and space to develop their own subcultures and methods of waging war. It is because of their smaller size and their separation across the Imperium that they have such diverse cultures and ideologies.


So do Imperial Guard regiments. Every single thing you said about marines there also applies to the Guard.
This is true! However, Imperial Guard regiments are very often standardised, and due to human mortality, and being more directly commanded by the Administratum and other organisations, they have less opportunities to develop their own regimental cultures and identities beyond their homeworld ancestry.

Again, don't get me wrong, *most* factions in the Imperium would have quite a lot of their own cultural differences and identity (AdMech especially should be much more different than they are!), but Space Marines definitely have plenty of reason to be so unique, despite being so few in number. I don't mean this to be a "only Space Marines are so unique!", but rather as a "Space Marines totally have reasons to be unique, like every other Imperial vassal".

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/14 14:03:54



They/them

 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Vatsetis wrote:
Yes sir!

Thats definetly the check mate to this thread...

I surrender and expect your graceful mercy...
I accept your surrender.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





The Shire(s)

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
This is hardly contradictory, considering how Astartes are organised as decentralised Chapters who have been permitted to form their own cultures and fiefdoms. Unlike other more standardised organisations, Space Marines have the time and space to develop their own subcultures and methods of waging war. It is because of their smaller size and their separation across the Imperium that they have such diverse cultures and ideologies.


So do Imperial Guard regiments, even if they come from the same homeworld they often have vastly different traditions and approaches. Every single thing you said about marines there also applies to the Guard.


To be fair, Guard regiments are vastly more diverse in the fluff, moreso than Astartes, but their rules options have been sadly pared down in line with "no models, no rules".

The 3.5/4th ed codex was the high point of Guard rules variation, and allowed for a massive variety in regimental culture and style of warfare. Alas, that is no more.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
Made in no
Fresh-Faced New User




Reading the comments here it seems it turned into more of focussing on smal details and ignoring the bigger picture on both sides of the argument.

I dont see OP as a troll here but he do seem more defensive and ignoring some aspects he dont agree with (maybe just being tired of constant marine focus?), but same can also be said for some of those arguing against him.

On the original premise if most actions would be mass destruction weapons and not marines going in. Well that is actually true. But in those cases the marines are not called out, the bombardment etc are done by the guard/Navy etc. The Marines are called out as specialist when those solutions are not optimal for the mission. Optimally marines are only used for specialist missions, but sometimes they get caught in the open (Rynn's World) or resources are lacking so they need to be used in a sub-optimal way. Also due to it being a game and the game is about balanced forces (Marines would normally not be balanced but surprise attack with better firepower) some lore is about them meeting in the battlefield, kinda against the nature of the marine purpose.

On a side note about marines being more or less likely to fall to chaos I think personally it can be quite likely for them to fall to chaos as a whole chapter. In a way it is same as in the Heresy that their indoctrination makes them easier to accept and follow orders from their superior (obviously with some exceptions), So if on chapel master/Chief Librarian etc falls it is not too unlikely that the rest follow suit.
Peter Fehervari have made a few books that illustrates how subtly the chaos are corrupting
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




On the whole 'Falling to chaos' thing, what's interesting is there's a spectrum there, and frankly, a lot of comes down to interpretation, presjudice, politics and pragmatism.

Take the badab war. For the first half of the schism, it was regarded as a 'civil' matter and basically rumbled over the faultline between a space marine chapters indeprndence, their right and duty to defend their realms by any means necessary and the rights and duties of the administratum. A lot of the initial.hostility came down to thr fact that the fire hawks chapter master was a petty individual.and bore a grudge against huron. Had they not intervened, the while scenario would have been different.

What was interesting was when it was a 'civil' matter, all the planets were technically imperial and were technically on the same side. Didn't stop the novamarines (I think?) coming along and nuking the homeworlds of the mantis warriors because they didn't want to engage blade to blade. Think about that for a moment. A space marine chspter was technically nuking a compliant and loyal world that had not raised arms against the Imperium. I can imagine in terms of 'honourable feuds', this would be seen as a blow below the belt and at best, very poor form.

Now imagine if the badab war had panned out different. Lets say it was a hundred years later and huron was less of an [bleep]. The great rift, for example. THere's huron with 3,000 astartes. And a desperate time fir everyone. It could have conceivably come down to a Chapter judgement 'right, send a your warriors into battle. Make sure huron finds his end in glorious combat somewhere' instead of 'they're traitors, kill them all'. Had the chips fallen another way, The hammer could also conceivably have fallen down on the novamarines for greatly exceeding their authority and bringing war to compliant, innocent imperial citizenry. And they'd be the traitors and hounded into the maelstrom, or given some kind of penitent Crusade to make up.for it.

greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
 
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