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Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

Yeah, except when you don't spam the 3-4 best units for that archetype (dakkajet, wazbom, scrapjet and squigbuggy) and you face different factions you don't have an OP list with a super high WR.

A list might be skew since all the models have the same profile, basically everything is either T5 or T6 with 4+ save. And fielding multiple planes has always been skew.

I'm also a Freebooters guy at the moment but I don't play any plane or the squigbuggies. Never more than 4 buggies in total. I never stomped 1800 points of stuff in one turn so far.


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Blackie wrote:
Yeah, except when you don't spam the 3-4 best units for that archetype (dakkajet, wazbom, scrapjet and squigbuggy) and you face different factions you don't have an OP list with a super high WR.

A list might be skew since all the models have the same profile, basically everything is either T5 or T6 with 4+ save. And fielding multiple planes has always been skew.

I'm also a Freebooters guy at the moment but I don't play any plane or the squigbuggies. Never more than 4 buggies in total. I never stomped 1800 points of stuff in one turn so far.


I'll bet i could remove at least 1500pts if you just put an enemy army in front of my freebootas list quite easily, even with my 'more casual' setup that works in things like trukk boyz, stormboyz, KBBs and BDSWs.

Or my thousand sons list that can dump out 40+MWs in a psychic phase. Or my dark eldar list that can throw a billion melee attacks. Or my deathwatch list that can drop a whole fuckton of D2 AP-1 boltgun shots. Or basically any list that's been upped to 9th ed levels of power and lethality.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in ie
Ship's Officer





 Blackie wrote:
Yeah, except when you don't spam the 3-4 best units for that archetype (dakkajet, wazbom, scrapjet and squigbuggy) and you face different factions you don't have an OP list with a super high WR.

A list might be skew since all the models have the same profile, basically everything is either T5 or T6 with 4+ save. And fielding multiple planes has always been skew.

I'm also a Freebooters guy at the moment but I don't play any plane or the squigbuggies. Never more than 4 buggies in total. I never stomped 1800 points of stuff in one turn so far.


>First turn advantage isn't real
>40k is the most balanced its ever been
>Your opponent is WAAC
>You should ask him to tone down his lists
>Just use more terrain
>houserule it till it works
>Tournament data shows the game is balanced
>Tournaments aren't representitve of REAL 40K player
>Crusade is better you should play that
>It works for MY group
>Find a new group/FLGS
>You're just not playing it properly
>You're bad at the game

Edit:
>your standards are too high
>most people just play for the models/lore < You Are Here

Did I forget any?
I can't believe I used to say the same stuff about 8th.

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2021/10/29 12:55:46



 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







 Blackie wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Oh wow, the Turn 1 Shooting Victory happened AGAIN in a tournament grand final.

I'm sure it is the players'/TO's/dog's/venue's/lunch caterer's fault though, not GW.


It happens when extremely skew lists are legal and people design their lists with a rock paper scissor attitude in mind, hoping to get paper as opponent if they are scissor. That's what happened in that tournament, and what is really frequent in those kind of events.

The vast majority of players wouldn't even think to field something like that. And sooner or later it will be fixed, we all know that, which means for the regular dude lists like this one are not an issue. The average drukhari/ad mech builds are definitely more problematic.


Ah yes, the "player's fault" for playing skew lists. Got it in one.

This is literally the same old GW.

"Most players wouldn't field [armored company][grav-tank skew eldar][scatbikes][imperium superfriends]"
"It only happens when extreme skew lists blah blah blah, just a tournament problem"
"Most players won't field something so brutal"
"Sooner or later it will be fixed, therefore it isn't an issue"
"Other armies are even worse"
^ that last one's the best - but you're right. Which is the funny part. It isn't ORKS being OP in this case. It's 9th being fundamentally jank.

Anyways, same old excuses since Jervis Johnson wrote that article about Wolf Guard Terminators in 2nd edition.

But don't worry, 9th is fine and the best 40k's ever been!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/28 13:08:17


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Eh, weve already had 'it works for MY group' in the thread, if we're doing Bingo I think we've hit on everything except 'Find a new group/FLGS' and 'Youre bad at the game' in some form


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We also, for added comedy, in another thread have one of the best 40k players in the world saying 'hey whadda ya want in some matchups you just get tabled in one turn! It's definitely only this one army tho that I do not play that one needs nerfed its sooooo much crazier than the other competitive dominant armies like the one i play.'

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/28 13:09:27


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in pt
Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp




Git good scrubs

There, now we have it all!
   
Made in us
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine




9th isn’t fundamentally bad. It’s that it has incredibly limited design space, and they keep adding complex labyrinths of the same bonuses to every faction. The core rule book is actually pretty good. I would also argue that 7th edition’s rule book was fairly well designed as well, but in its complexity introduced a few problems that really were rendered moot because strength 7 s weapon spam coupled with decurions and all the other wacko stuff that existed purely in the codices and supplements ultimately killed the edition.
The same thing happened in 9th, only instead of s7 spam it’s high volume high ap attacks and bonkers amounts of rerolls. I know space marines are the tried and true punching bag but the limited design space of the current rule set and the constant need to churn out more space marine models created this issue where they needed to start ripping other factions off because there wasn’t anywhere new for them to explore. And now the rules writers are on this downward spiral of enhancing lethality for each faction.
The funny thing is that there actually are dimensions that the rules writers never bothered to explore; pinning or suppressed effects and leadership for example would have been an excellent place to start. Or using leadership tests to apply a nerf to a unit. Or bringing back toughness and strength tests for things like psychic abilities like they used to have. And heaven knows what else. They should have started by going to the stat line and working across. Flipping through the source rules and seeing what phases we can start interacting with.

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




macluvin wrote:
9th isn’t fundamentally bad. It’s that it has incredibly limited design space, and they keep adding complex labyrinths of the same bonuses to every faction. The core rule book is actually pretty good. I would also argue that 7th edition’s rule book was fairly well designed as well, but in its complexity introduced a few problems that really were rendered moot because strength 7 s weapon spam coupled with decurions and all the other wacko stuff that existed purely in the codices and supplements ultimately killed the edition.
The same thing happened in 9th, only instead of s7 spam it’s high volume high ap attacks and bonkers amounts of rerolls. I know space marines are the tried and true punching bag but the limited design space of the current rule set and the constant need to churn out more space marine models created this issue where they needed to start ripping other factions off because there wasn’t anywhere new for them to explore. And now the rules writers are on this downward spiral of enhancing lethality for each faction.
The funny thing is that there actually are dimensions that the rules writers never bothered to explore; pinning or suppressed effects and leadership for example would have been an excellent place to start. Or using leadership tests to apply a nerf to a unit. Or bringing back toughness and strength tests for things like psychic abilities like they used to have. And heaven knows what else. They should have started by going to the stat line and working across. Flipping through the source rules and seeing what phases we can start interacting with.


I would think that a big issue with 9th is that it is not really fit for the purpose GW wants to use it for, rendering any positives fairly mute.
It basically ignores a good portion of the army’s faction identity and fantasy, leaves out huge portions of its design to be written and rewritten again and again over new codexes.

Terrain as well, a issue of poor design piled onto poor design. Fixing it at this point would take management much higher than the rules itself to care.
As GW would like something to sell to players for any commitment within the rules itself.
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

 Sim-Life wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Yeah, except when you don't spam the 3-4 best units for that archetype (dakkajet, wazbom, scrapjet and squigbuggy) and you face different factions you don't have an OP list with a super high WR.

A list might be skew since all the models have the same profile, basically everything is either T5 or T6 with 4+ save. And fielding multiple planes has always been skew.

I'm also a Freebooters guy at the moment but I don't play any plane or the squigbuggies. Never more than 4 buggies in total. I never stomped 1800 points of stuff in one turn so far.


>First turn advantage isn't real
>40k is the most balanced its ever been
>Your opponent is WAAC
>You should ask him to tone down his lists
>Just use more terrain
>houserule it till it works
>Tournament data shows the game is balanced
>Tournaments aren't representitve of REAL 40K player < You Are Here
>Crusade is better you should play that
>It works for MY group
>Find a new group/FLGS
>You're just not playing it properly
>You're bad at the game

Did I forget any?
I can't believe I used to say the same stuff about 8th.


Again, if you believe 40k is a game well designed for pick up games against strangers and tournaments maybe you've picked up the wrong game .

There's certainly much more attention from GW towards competitive gaming but this is still a game that isn't designed to be balanced, just to sell more products. Nothing will change that. So you can either change attitude towards the game or adapt. Tournaments players understand it, they accepted the rock/paper/scissor attitude that is required for that environment; now that kind of gaming can be considered boring or even repulsive by many (including me) but it indeed works as we've never seen WR this close in any other editions, when typically 3-5 factions were dominating for years. Now a few games can be over turn 1, true, but how many games were decided in turn 1 during 6th or 7th? Casual friendly ones did it as well, with chats and toning down/up their lists. There are players who can't even imagine playing 40k without doing that.

But you're right, I'm definitely there. I still haven't seen in real life an ork list with 4+ flyers for example .

I think you belong to those who want to prove something by playing games, how skilled and smart they are. Nothing wrong with that, I just think that GW games are not suited for that. Never were, never will be and intentionally.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/29 07:12:00



 
   
Made in us
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine




 Sim-Life wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Yeah, except when you don't spam the 3-4 best units for that archetype (dakkajet, wazbom, scrapjet and squigbuggy) and you face different factions you don't have an OP list with a super high WR.

A list might be skew since all the models have the same profile, basically everything is either T5 or T6 with 4+ save. And fielding multiple planes has always been skew.

I'm also a Freebooters guy at the moment but I don't play any plane or the squigbuggies. Never more than 4 buggies in total. I never stomped 1800 points of stuff in one turn so far.


>First turn advantage isn't real
>40k is the most balanced its ever been
>Your opponent is WAAC
>You should ask him to tone down his lists
>Just use more terrain
>houserule it till it works
>Tournament data shows the game is balanced
>Tournaments aren't representitve of REAL 40K player < You Are Here
>Crusade is better you should play that
>It works for MY group
>Find a new group/FLGS
>You're just not playing it properly
>You're bad at the game

Did I forget any?
I can't believe I used to say the same stuff about 8th.


The game gets a lot better once you lower your expectations or standards?

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
Made in ie
Ship's Officer





macluvin wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Yeah, except when you don't spam the 3-4 best units for that archetype (dakkajet, wazbom, scrapjet and squigbuggy) and you face different factions you don't have an OP list with a super high WR.

A list might be skew since all the models have the same profile, basically everything is either T5 or T6 with 4+ save. And fielding multiple planes has always been skew.

I'm also a Freebooters guy at the moment but I don't play any plane or the squigbuggies. Never more than 4 buggies in total. I never stomped 1800 points of stuff in one turn so far.


>First turn advantage isn't real
>40k is the most balanced its ever been
>Your opponent is WAAC
>You should ask him to tone down his lists
>Just use more terrain
>houserule it till it works
>Tournament data shows the game is balanced
>Tournaments aren't representitve of REAL 40K player < You Are Here
>Crusade is better you should play that
>It works for MY group
>Find a new group/FLGS
>You're just not playing it properly
>You're bad at the game

Did I forget any?
I can't believe I used to say the same stuff about 8th.


The game gets a lot better once you lower your expectations or standards?


I suppose since he just posted that I should add it to the list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:


I think you belong to those who want to prove something by playing games, how skilled and smart they are. Nothing wrong with that, I just think that GW games are not suited for that. Never were, never will be and intentionally.


When you pay the prices GW are asking there is absolutely nothing wrong with holding the game to a higher standard than GW delivers. When the most very basic entry level to the game is over €/£/$200 (sometime more depending on the army and half of that being the rules themselves) you expect to get something that reflects that cost in terms of quality and that expectation is nowhere near met. If two players new to the game drop a combined $400 and get a totally unfun and one-sided experience as shown in this thread then something is wrong with the product. Its well within GWs ability to hire and write good rules but they've become their creation and are an archaic, plodding behemoth that's too big to fail. Any competitor that shows up just gets squashed by GWs sheer market presence so there is no need for them to ever try to improve.

(Better add
>Most people play for the models and lore
to the list)

As for that part about me playing for skill, thats genuinely laughable. My favourite armies are the most random ones. One of my favourite WHFB army books was 8th Daemons, my biggest army is Skaven (followed by tyranids who have been awful for a long time) and most games that actually require skill or intelligence I lose. I played a new euro game last night with my wife (Iki, for those interested) and did appallingly, even while I was playing I could see I was doing badly, but I had fun because the rules were well written, engaging and the game is well balanced. My failure was entirely on me and not because my wife just randomly happened to take the best cards/resources (as per the OP) and I'll likely do better next time and it won't require me to modify or houserule anything.

If you're standards for 40k/GW are so low that you don't expect a game to require some semblance of skill to play then why do you even bother with rules? Just smash models together and take turns rolling dice at each other. Whoever rolls the most 6s win. That'll be €50 thanks.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/29 10:28:54



 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

 Sim-Life wrote:


If you're standards for 40k/GW are so low that you don't expect a game to require some semblance of skill to play then why do you even bother with rules? Just smash models together and take turns rolling dice at each other. Whoever rolls the most 6s win. That'll be €50 thanks.


You know, things aren't exclusively black or white. Game that requires no skill and game that is perfectly balanced and requires skills. There are infinite shades between the peaks. Current version of 40k already involves some skill and decision making during the game, but also the "just smash models together and enjoy the dice rolling part" part is and definitely should be a major part in 40k or any other GW game. IMHO the current version of 40k is a lot of fun to play, as it balances both parts: it's a beer and pretzels game that is somehow self-driven with the dice rolling and some decisions from players and compared to older editions it requires much less pre-game chat and fixes to work, but it might be true that I have kinda low expectations as I didn't abandon the game even in 7th or index era of 8th. IMHO the worse 40k periods ever (excluding 6th which I completely missed due to having other priorities/interests in life). If anything the biggest downside of 40k is that the game isn't enough random, with too many tools to lean toward the averages or even above the averages.

Value for GW models is not just how they act on the tabletop, there's also the hobby to consider. There's a large portion of the fan base who don't play at all and still pay for GW models and accessories. Or mostly plaint and collect and do a random game once in a while just for the fun of showing those beloved models on a nice table to others and self. Absolutely do add that to the list .

So again, if you see the value of GW plastic only, or even mostly, in the current state of the game, you've picked up the wrong game . GW sells miniatures, then games which are not even remotely close to a boardgame. Do you really think that whole armies should worth 50$, or even 100$, just because the game might be in a terrible (for you) state? If you don't see enough value in handling the expensive toys you painted why don't you try a tabletop simulator then?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/29 11:17:16



 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Blackie wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:


If you're standards for 40k/GW are so low that you don't expect a game to require some semblance of skill to play then why do you even bother with rules? Just smash models together and take turns rolling dice at each other. Whoever rolls the most 6s win. That'll be €50 thanks.


You know, things aren't exclusively black or white. Game that requires no skill and game that is perfectly balanced and requires skills. There are infinite shades between the peaks. Current version of 40k already involves some skill and decision making during the game, but also the "just smash models together and enjoy the dice rolling part" part is and definitely should be a major part in 40k or any other GW game. IMHO the current version of 40k is a lot of fun to play, as it balances both parts: it's a beer and pretzels game that is somehow self-driven with the dice rolling and some decisions from players and compared to older editions it requires much less pre-game chat and fixes to work, but it might be true that I have kinda low expectations as I didn't abandon the game even in 7th or index era of 8th. IMHO the worse 40k periods ever (excluding 6th which I completely missed due to having other priorities/interests in life). If anything the biggest downside of 40k is that the game isn't enough random, with too many tools to lean toward the averages or even above the averages.

Value for GW models is not just how they act on the tabletop, there's also the hobby to consider. There's a large portion of the fan base who don't play at all and still pay for GW models and accessories. Or mostly plaint and collect and do a random game once in a while just for the fun of showing those beloved models on a nice table to others and self. Absolutely do add that to the list .

So again, if you see the value of GW plastic only, or even mostly, in the current state of the game, you've picked up the wrong game . GW sells miniatures, then games which are not even remotely close to a boardgame. Do you really think that whole armies should worth 50$, or even 100$, just because the game might be in a terrible (for you) state? If you don't see enough value in handling the expensive toys you painted why don't you try a tabletop simulator then?


...This argument might have some validity if the RULES for games workshop games weren't equivalently as expensive as some top-end board games.

If little timmy wants to play a space marine army, he's got to buy

-rulebook 65
-codex 50
-supplement 30

145$.

Or, for 30$ less for again ZERO MINIATURES AT ALL, you could get the complete box of fething Gloomhaven which weighs approximately 45 pounds.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in pt
Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp




macluvin wrote:
The game gets a lot better once you lower your expectations or standards?

I once heard a cool quote: ‘resentment is the gap between expectations and reality’.
   
Made in ie
Ship's Officer





 the_scotsman wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:


If you're standards for 40k/GW are so low that you don't expect a game to require some semblance of skill to play then why do you even bother with rules? Just smash models together and take turns rolling dice at each other. Whoever rolls the most 6s win. That'll be €50 thanks.


You know, things aren't exclusively black or white. Game that requires no skill and game that is perfectly balanced and requires skills. There are infinite shades between the peaks. Current version of 40k already involves some skill and decision making during the game, but also the "just smash models together and enjoy the dice rolling part" part is and definitely should be a major part in 40k or any other GW game. IMHO the current version of 40k is a lot of fun to play, as it balances both parts: it's a beer and pretzels game that is somehow self-driven with the dice rolling and some decisions from players and compared to older editions it requires much less pre-game chat and fixes to work, but it might be true that I have kinda low expectations as I didn't abandon the game even in 7th or index era of 8th. IMHO the worse 40k periods ever (excluding 6th which I completely missed due to having other priorities/interests in life). If anything the biggest downside of 40k is that the game isn't enough random, with too many tools to lean toward the averages or even above the averages.

Value for GW models is not just how they act on the tabletop, there's also the hobby to consider. There's a large portion of the fan base who don't play at all and still pay for GW models and accessories. Or mostly plaint and collect and do a random game once in a while just for the fun of showing those beloved models on a nice table to others and self. Absolutely do add that to the list .

So again, if you see the value of GW plastic only, or even mostly, in the current state of the game, you've picked up the wrong game . GW sells miniatures, then games which are not even remotely close to a boardgame. Do you really think that whole armies should worth 50$, or even 100$, just because the game might be in a terrible (for you) state? If you don't see enough value in handling the expensive toys you painted why don't you try a tabletop simulator then?


...This argument might have some validity if the RULES for games workshop games weren't equivalently as expensive as some top-end board games.

If little timmy wants to play a space marine army, he's got to buy

-rulebook 65
-codex 50
-supplement 30

145$.

Or, for 30$ less for again ZERO MINIATURES AT ALL, you could get the complete box of fething Gloomhaven which weighs approximately 45 pounds.


Yeah. I went All In on Bloodborne which would be considered extremely extravagant which got me 216 miniatures, 12 campaigns, a randomised dungeon expansion, loads of cardboard map tiles and probably close to 1000 cards for $400 (incl. shipping). Thats like a fraction of what it would get you in GW, even compared to their own boxed games. and the model detail is good. Shallow details are still clear and there was probably less gaps than an average GW model honestly. Weirdly I find supposedly inferior board games models far better to paint than GW models. They generally have better shallow textures and ironically lend themselves really well to GWs Contrast paints as GW models tend to have loads of flat, untextured surfaces.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/29 12:26:33



 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

 the_scotsman wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:


If you're standards for 40k/GW are so low that you don't expect a game to require some semblance of skill to play then why do you even bother with rules? Just smash models together and take turns rolling dice at each other. Whoever rolls the most 6s win. That'll be €50 thanks.


You know, things aren't exclusively black or white. Game that requires no skill and game that is perfectly balanced and requires skills. There are infinite shades between the peaks. Current version of 40k already involves some skill and decision making during the game, but also the "just smash models together and enjoy the dice rolling part" part is and definitely should be a major part in 40k or any other GW game. IMHO the current version of 40k is a lot of fun to play, as it balances both parts: it's a beer and pretzels game that is somehow self-driven with the dice rolling and some decisions from players and compared to older editions it requires much less pre-game chat and fixes to work, but it might be true that I have kinda low expectations as I didn't abandon the game even in 7th or index era of 8th. IMHO the worse 40k periods ever (excluding 6th which I completely missed due to having other priorities/interests in life). If anything the biggest downside of 40k is that the game isn't enough random, with too many tools to lean toward the averages or even above the averages.

Value for GW models is not just how they act on the tabletop, there's also the hobby to consider. There's a large portion of the fan base who don't play at all and still pay for GW models and accessories. Or mostly plaint and collect and do a random game once in a while just for the fun of showing those beloved models on a nice table to others and self. Absolutely do add that to the list .

So again, if you see the value of GW plastic only, or even mostly, in the current state of the game, you've picked up the wrong game . GW sells miniatures, then games which are not even remotely close to a boardgame. Do you really think that whole armies should worth 50$, or even 100$, just because the game might be in a terrible (for you) state? If you don't see enough value in handling the expensive toys you painted why don't you try a tabletop simulator then?


...This argument might have some validity if the RULES for games workshop games weren't equivalently as expensive as some top-end board games.

If little timmy wants to play a space marine army, he's got to buy

-rulebook 65
-codex 50
-supplement 30

145$.

Or, for 30$ less for again ZERO MINIATURES AT ALL, you could get the complete box of fething Gloomhaven which weighs approximately 45 pounds.


Or, for $30 less, Timmy could skip the supplement as Coex: SM is 100% playable on its own.

Of course Timmy is also likely internet savvy & already realizes he could skip buying the40k books altogether....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/29 12:36:02


 
   
Made in ie
Ship's Officer





 Blackie wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:


If you're standards for 40k/GW are so low that you don't expect a game to require some semblance of skill to play then why do you even bother with rules? Just smash models together and take turns rolling dice at each other. Whoever rolls the most 6s win. That'll be €50 thanks.


You know, things aren't exclusively black or white. Game that requires no skill and game that is perfectly balanced and requires skills. There are infinite shades between the peaks. Current version of 40k already involves some skill and decision making during the game, but also the "just smash models together and enjoy the dice rolling part" part is and definitely should be a major part in 40k or any other GW game. IMHO the current version of 40k is a lot of fun to play, as it balances both parts: it's a beer and pretzels game that is somehow self-driven with the dice rolling and some decisions from players and compared to older editions it requires much less pre-game chat and fixes to work, but it might be true that I have kinda low expectations as I didn't abandon the game even in 7th or index era of 8th. IMHO the worse 40k periods ever (excluding 6th which I completely missed due to having other priorities/interests in life). If anything the biggest downside of 40k is that the game isn't enough random, with too many tools to lean toward the averages or even above the averages.

Value for GW models is not just how they act on the tabletop, there's also the hobby to consider. There's a large portion of the fan base who don't play at all and still pay for GW models and accessories. Or mostly plaint and collect and do a random game once in a while just for the fun of showing those beloved models on a nice table to others and self. Absolutely do add that to the list .

So again, if you see the value of GW plastic only, or even mostly, in the current state of the game, you've picked up the wrong game . GW sells miniatures, then games which are not even remotely close to a boardgame. Do you really think that whole armies should worth 50$, or even 100$, just because the game might be in a terrible (for you) state? If you don't see enough value in handling the expensive toys you painted why don't you try a tabletop simulator then?


Also further to what I said about Bloodborne, keep in mind that this argument is about the fact that if two new players buy the game blind, and one buys a handful of basic, easily available models that massively overpowers the other then there is a problem with the game, they effectively spent what I paid for Bloodborne to have a bad time. All your deflections about the value of the minis not being solely based in game don't work here because they were bought specifically to play the game so its not relevant and as I said, you get more for less elsewhere. I would sooner recommend someone some track down a copy of Forbidden Stars as its a better 40k game than they start the actual 40k. Also it has 127 models and 4 factions in one box for around $110, all of which are downscaled GW sculpts.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/10/29 13:15:23



 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

On the subject of terrain, is it just me or does the GW recommended terrain look lame as feth? All the big tournaments seem to be kissing GW's ass over it but it looks god awful. My area pretty much uses it 100% of the time for all games, so have jumped on the bandwagon, but god damn it's so bland.

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Like the arrangement or the aesthetic?
The arrangement for tournaments is intended IIRC to bring a sort of balance to the table i.e. nobody has a distinct advantage because their deployment zone is covered well or a disadvantage because they have a single tree.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





GW's terrain is fine, it's just limited in aesthetic scope. They have very little terrain that isn't "Imperial city ruins" and "Imperial industrial machinery."

If you want an interesting and attractive table (as opposed to "Sector Platonically-Balanced Tournament Field"), it's still up to the players to modify/diversify their table with crafted terrain pieces, 3rd-party kits, and so on.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Apple fox wrote:

I would think that a big issue with 9th is that it is not really fit for the purpose GW wants to use it for, rendering any positives fairly mute.
It basically ignores a good portion of the army’s faction identity and fantasy, leaves out huge portions of its design to be written and rewritten again and again over new codexes.


This needs a bit of clarification.

First, I'm talking only 9th ed dexes.

So if by ignoring faction identity, you mean ignoring fluff text that never made a difference on the table, I can get behind you. What's more, I mourn the loss of this material from 9th ed dexes as much as most Dakkanaughts. I was particularly disappointed, for example, with the lack of a galactic map in the Sister's dex showing the locations of all of the Orders of the Sisters.

But in terms of having a faction identity on the table, represented by unique combinations of rules for factions and sub-factions, I feel that no other edition has ever come close to 8th, and that 9th raised the bar even higher for faction/ sub-faction identity- especially if you go down the Crusade rabbit hole.

Space Marines have been spoiled with unique sub-faction content since second edition, and other editions have allowed some factions to experience that too. To my knowledge, 8th was the first edition to offer unique sub-faction rules content for every faction in the game, and again, 9th raised that bar even higher.

There's so much faction/ sub-faction identity via rules content expressing itself on tables these days that one of the most common complaints is that there's too much of it. While I personally love it, because I'm not actually a wargamer at heart, but more of an RPGer/ CCGer, I can actually understand why those with different priorities sometimes feel overwhelmed by "bloat".
   
Made in ca
Hauptmann




Hogtown

PenitentJake wrote:
Apple fox wrote:

I would think that a big issue with 9th is that it is not really fit for the purpose GW wants to use it for, rendering any positives fairly mute.
It basically ignores a good portion of the army’s faction identity and fantasy, leaves out huge portions of its design to be written and rewritten again and again over new codexes.


This needs a bit of clarification.

First, I'm talking only 9th ed dexes.

So if by ignoring faction identity, you mean ignoring fluff text that never made a difference on the table, I can get behind you. What's more, I mourn the loss of this material from 9th ed dexes as much as most Dakkanaughts. I was particularly disappointed, for example, with the lack of a galactic map in the Sister's dex showing the locations of all of the Orders of the Sisters.


I'm speaking for Apple Fox here, but I'm inferring that by identity and fantasy he means that the armies don't play in a way that reflects their unique character in the setting. All armies in 40k essentially operate the same on the table. They move forward, they shoot, they charge. Any other action other than those three is a waste of potential killing power.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/29 16:46:36


Thought for the day
 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Las wrote:


I'm speaking for Apple Fox here, but I'm inferring that by identity and fantasy he means that the armies don't play in a way that reflects their unique character in the setting. All armies in 40k essentially operate the same on the table. They move forward, they shoot, they charge. Any other action other than those three is a waste of potential killing power.


I extended the "If you're talking about Codex fluff" as a shout out to the fact that from this point of view, something has been lost, and I recognise that. But like you, I suspect Applefox means they all play the same, and if he does, I dispute that.

My sisters can now take Penitent Oaths and redeem themselves; they can become living saints and they can consecrate holy sites on the battlefield. Never before has any of this been possible.

Furthermore, 8th was the first edition where Order of Our Martyred Lady didn't use exactly the same rules on the battlefield as any other order.

So if Applefox is not talking about the lack of fluff in dexes, from my perspective, he's wrong. Yes, Space Wolves have had different rules from Blood Angels since second. And yes, in some editions from 3rd -7th, a craftworld or an IG may have played differently than another. But from 8th on, ALL sub-factions of EVERY faction have played differently, as they have different Strats, WL Traits, Sub-Faction Traits and Relics based on both faction and sub-faction, and different army purity bonuses and secondaries/ agendas plus pages of Crusade content based on faction.
   
Made in ca
Hauptmann




Hogtown

PenitentJake wrote:
 Las wrote:


I'm speaking for Apple Fox here, but I'm inferring that by identity and fantasy he means that the armies don't play in a way that reflects their unique character in the setting. All armies in 40k essentially operate the same on the table. They move forward, they shoot, they charge. Any other action other than those three is a waste of potential killing power.


I extended the "If you're talking about Codex fluff" as a shout out to the fact that from this point of view, something has been lost, and I recognise that. But like you, I suspect Applefox means they all play the same, and if he does, I dispute that.

My sisters can now take Penitent Oaths and redeem themselves; they can become living saints and they can consecrate holy sites on the battlefield. Never before has any of this been possible.


I play sisters too, and I love the little fluff aspects like this. I think the faith dice mechanic is especially neat. Unfortunately though, at the end of the day they're just the tools I use to move forward, shoot, and then charge. Same as every other army.

Thought for the day
 
   
Made in ie
Ship's Officer





PenitentJake wrote:



My sisters can now take Penitent Oaths and redeem themselves; they can become living saints and they can consecrate holy sites on the battlefield. Never before has any of this been possible.


Big asterisk there. I think you need to go back to playing Matched 2000pts games for a few months.


Furthermore, 8th was the first edition where Order of Our Martyred Lady didn't use exactly the same rules on the battlefield as any other order.


Okay so how does that change how they play compared to other armies? Or do they still just shoot the other guy till they die then hang about next to objectives hoping they kill more stuff than they do?


 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon




San Jose, CA

My Bloody Rose play different to my buddy's Martyred Lady.
   
Made in ie
Ship's Officer





Racerguy180 wrote:
My Bloody Rose play different to my buddy's Martyred Lady.


In what way? Or do you NOT move up and shoot then charge with them?


 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon




San Jose, CA

Repentia and arcos don't have guns, seraphim are already where I want them to be, I guess the couple 5 woman squads of dominions shoot....
   
Made in ca
Hauptmann




Hogtown

Racerguy180 wrote:
Repentia and arcos don't have guns, seraphim are already where I want them to be, I guess the couple 5 woman squads of dominions shoot....


Respectfully, I think this is a bit nit-picky. Exceptions don't prove the rule here. Would you say these are fundamentally different play styles?

Move forward > shoot > charge

Move forward > charge

I play bloody rose as well, for what it's worth.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/29 18:22:29


Thought for the day
 
   
Made in ie
Ship's Officer





Racerguy180 wrote:
Repentia and arcos don't have guns, seraphim are already where I want them to be, I guess the couple 5 woman squads of dominions shoot....


Okay, I feel like you're not getting the point.

So lets take a look at some factions.

The T'au faction identity is based on very strong, long range firepower based on incredibly manoeuvrable battlesuits. They're hard to pin down in melee but when you close the distance they're screwed.

Tyranids are (supposed to be) a horde army, with hundred of little bugs soaking up weapons fire and depleting the opponents ammo to allow the big bugs to wreck stuff unhindered. Key to this is that every single tyranid is a part of a whole and able to flawlessly adapt and change tactics at a moment notice.

Necrons are the most technologically advanced race in the galaxy. Terrifying, ancient, undying robots who's basic guns tear you apart on an atomic level, but they've been in hibernation and a majority haven't woken up yet and when they do they can be plagued by madness if they ever wake up at all.

All of this is reflected by the models of the army moving up, shooting and then sometimes charging.


 
   
 
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