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I've said it many times, but the lack of diversity in the Matched Play mission set (Eternal War), which is what underpins competitive play, means that players can more clearly optimize for the very narrow scoring system used.

The more fundamentally diverse the objectives are and the ways in which an army needs to operate to achieve those objectives, the harder it is to optimize around meta netlists.

You can maybe optimize for a few missions, but might be weaker in other missions. Or you can take an army list that's more flexible and jack-of-all-trades like - which would result I believe in a larger pool of decent competitive list types.

Want a better 40K?
Check out ProHammer: Classic - An Awesomely Unified Ruleset for 3rd - 7th Edition 40K... for retro 40k feels!
 
   
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 Mezmorki wrote:
I've said it many times, but the lack of diversity in the Matched Play mission set (Eternal War), which is what underpins competitive play, means that players can more clearly optimize for the very narrow scoring system used.

The more fundamentally diverse the objectives are and the ways in which an army needs to operate to achieve those objectives, the harder it is to optimize around meta netlists.

You can maybe optimize for a few missions, but might be weaker in other missions. Or you can take an army list that's more flexible and jack-of-all-trades like - which would result I believe in a larger pool of decent competitive list types.
I think the missions are fundamentally one of tabletop 40k's weakest points throughout its entire existence across all editions.

Despite all the work that goes into the art, the models, the stats, the game mechanics, rule clarity, etc, the gameplay itself is often the single most disappointing aspect of 40k, and a lot of that is the missions.

When a game is "draw a line in the middle, put one objective on each side, throw some terrain on, deploy twelve inches up the board, go!" or "randomly kill something or move to a point on the board every turn to score a point based on what a card deck pulls", that makes for an decent competitive sporty type of listbuilding play, but it's basically completely unattached to the rest of the game universe, and tactically often offers little depth.

Your average game of Dropzone Commander for instance is a much more narrative feeling game despite being very pickup/tournament oriented. You know you're dropping in from orbit, beneath an anti-missile halo, to engage at close quarters because active countermeasures intercept long range fire, and need something off the ground that your infantry are going to have to go searching for inside buildings in a city, and your opponent is burning down from the skies hoping to do the same thing. For a basic pickup game, that's a powerfully illustrative scene, that you just don't get with 40k the same way beyond "your two random factions pulled from the galaxy show up here to do things dictated by a card deck or fight over two points of ground on either side of this table", and a whole lot more tactical decisionmaking is involved on the parts of both players.

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I reckon 3e is the only one with decent missions, but in my experience people generally didn't want to play them, and the ones that didn't use the standard FOC barely saw any play.

4e's missions aren't terrible, but they're not as good as 3e, and 5e's are another downgrade.

I quite dislike the deck based mission idea, it just seems like it's better suited to a larger scale game like epic than a game like 40K.

   
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There were a lot of fun missions in the CA books in 8th.

Then 9th changed everything into the same boring mission with slight changes on where the markers were placed...

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I think if you're willing to look past 4th's "basic" missions, you'll find a lot of fun.

My buddy and I just played a mission called Sabotage; I got to put out a number of sentries (that follow some pretty cool and unique "Sentry" rules for the mission type) and a single Troops choice. The sentries have their own movement rules, rules for raising the alarm, etc.

My opponent, on the other hand, was trying to sabotage an objective in the center of the table (where my one Troops was deployed).

The attacker can choose whether or not to try for stealth (unreliable but effective), closing past the sentries all the way to the troops in the center before the alarm is sounded - or they can try the brute force approach and be spotted almost instantly.

There's a few turns of sentries vs. stealthers movement that don't count against the 40k game length, and the 40k game "officially" starts (in terms of the turn count for variable length) when the alarm is sounded.

Missions like this really show the variation between armies - Imperial Guard get a whole platoon as their Troops in addition to the base level of Sentries for the IG. This means (shockingly!) that they're a good force for defending things - just like a modern infantry company, there are a lot of men to do all the lifting, packing, etc. and this includes guarding an objective.

One can easily imagine the platoons rotating out, and the sentries wandering about in their boredom as the Orks (in this case) sneak closer and closer. A sentry is killed in Close Combat and fails to raise the alarm (failing his 4+ to cry out), but his body is seen later by another wandering sentry, and the alarm is raised. Helmets are donned and lasrifles loaded as the Guardsmen scramble to their positions, the Orks bellowing aloud as the thunder of their vehicular support just begins to be heard, engines turning over (off the board!) as they prepare to charge.

Meanwhile, at the company HQ, the Imperial Guard Captain musters his men and also prepares to move forwards to relieve the defending platoon...

well, Skimmers are OP I guess so it sucks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/06 14:03:41


 
   
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Nostalgia has kicked in hard for me - I'm starting up 40K 2nd...again!

Now, the challenge will be finding like-minded players here in the 21st century, but either way, it will be a fun ride!

   
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 Alpharius wrote:
Nostalgia has kicked in hard for me - I'm starting up 40K 2nd...again!
I loved 2nd Edition. I had the Guard Codex memorised. I could literally sit down with a pad and a pen and write out lists without needing the Codex beside me. Everything was kind of wild and unhinged back then, and whilst that gave us Herohammer, it was still loads of fun.

Of course, Necromunda was 2nd Ed 40k perfected.

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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Alpharius wrote:
Nostalgia has kicked in hard for me - I'm starting up 40K 2nd...again!
I loved 2nd Edition. I had the Guard Codex memorised. I could literally sit down with a pad and a pen and write out lists without needing the Codex beside me. Everything was kind of wild and unhinged back then, and whilst that gave us Herohammer, it was still loads of fun.

Of course, Necromunda was 2nd Ed 40k perfected.


If only Australia wasn't so damn far away!

Is there a dedicated 40K 2nd edition thread/area somewhere here on Dakka?

   
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 Da Boss wrote:
I reckon 3e is the only one with decent missions, but in my experience people generally didn't want to play them, and the ones that didn't use the standard FOC barely saw any play.


I had the same experience back then, although my opponents were limited to a few friends.

I feel like there's some sort of psychological effect that says, "I must play a bare-bones, line-up-and-fight game in order to prove I am the best general. If I play some other mission, my victory could be due to the scenario giving me an unfair advantage / random noise caused by the unusual setup / etc, and therefore I can't count it as a REAL victory showing off my superiorityness." It happened to all of us, including me.

Edit: It's like pro Super Smash Bros gamers insisting on only playing the Final Destination stage (the totally flat boring one) and with no random items allowed.

The irony is that being able to take on an unusual mission with peculiar challenges that might even be slanted against you is probably a better way to prove your skills.

That era of GW had missions for days in all its games (from 5th ed WFB to Epic 40,000 and BFG as well as 3rd ed 40K). Sad to see it decline later.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/08 04:38:34


 
   
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 Alpharius wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Alpharius wrote:
Nostalgia has kicked in hard for me - I'm starting up 40K 2nd...again!
I loved 2nd Edition. I had the Guard Codex memorised. I could literally sit down with a pad and a pen and write out lists without needing the Codex beside me. Everything was kind of wild and unhinged back then, and whilst that gave us Herohammer, it was still loads of fun.

Of course, Necromunda was 2nd Ed 40k perfected.


If only Australia wasn't so damn far away!

Is there a dedicated 40K 2nd edition thread/area somewhere here on Dakka?
Not one that I know of, but I'd sign up for it in a heartbeat. Actually a buddy of mine and I were just talking about trying some Rogue Trader, although I'm not sure how realistic that is, I only have the main book and the Compilation. For 2nd ed I've got the whole set and all the codexes.

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2nd edition did have some tough character builds, but at least you always had the option of hitting them with a goobs lascannon. 2d6 wounds was never anything to scoff at.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/08 14:11:24


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GW didn't mean to hit your wallet and I know they love you, baby. I'm sure they won't do it again so it's ok to purchase and make up.


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There is a dedicated 2nd Facebook group that is very active.
   
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Yep Oldhammer is massive on FB - tens of thousands in some of the groups, so I think if anyone interested posted on there they would probably find local players without too much trouble.

 Alpharius wrote:
Nostalgia has kicked in hard for me - I'm starting up 40K 2nd...again!

Now, the challenge will be finding like-minded players here in the 21st century, but either way, it will be a fun ride!


Well, was going to say it's a shame I am across the pond!

I've started toying with 2nd ed too, although so far have only got a few books and codecies. I am thinking of maybe Chaos, have just read Talon of Horus (awesome book btw if anyone hasn't read it!) but doing a scouring-era Sons of Horus force. So when they have been well and truly beaten and have their backs to the wall, trying to escape to the EoT, but still have their Legion code/brotherhood fraternity. Maybe against Imperial Guard or Eldar? (Who were great fun in 2nd ed). Would be a nice opportunity to do some conversions on the lovely new Chaos plastics, make them look slightly less chaos-y with a few 30k-era armour mods thrown in.

But need to finish off my Epic 30k/Great Crusade project first!

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 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
2nd edition did have some tough character builds, but at least you always had the option of hitting them with a goobs lascannon. 2d6 wounds was never anything to scoff at.
Librarians were known to scoff at them with their toughness of 10, three stacked 4++ saves and rerolls.
Exarchs with swooping hawk wings and vortex grenades on the other hand...
   
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 Pacific wrote:
Yep Oldhammer is massive on FB - tens of thousands in some of the groups, so I think if anyone interested posted on there they would probably find local players without too much trouble.

 Alpharius wrote:
Nostalgia has kicked in hard for me - I'm starting up 40K 2nd...again!

Now, the challenge will be finding like-minded players here in the 21st century, but either way, it will be a fun ride!


Well, was going to say it's a shame I am across the pond!

I've started toying with 2nd ed too, although so far have only got a few books and codecies. I am thinking of maybe Chaos, have just read Talon of Horus (awesome book btw if anyone hasn't read it!) but doing a scouring-era Sons of Horus force. So when they have been well and truly beaten and have their backs to the wall, trying to escape to the EoT, but still have their Legion code/brotherhood fraternity. Maybe against Imperial Guard or Eldar? (Who were great fun in 2nd ed). Would be a nice opportunity to do some conversions on the lovely new Chaos plastics, make them look slightly less chaos-y with a few 30k-era armour mods thrown in.

But need to finish off my Epic 30k/Great Crusade project first!


That sounds awesome - and a lot of fun to build, paint and play!

I think the true kings of 40K 2nd edition were probably Space Wolves, Eldar and Chaos Marines?

But at this point, playing 2nd Edition will be purely for fun, and some of the more game-breaking, fun-sapping combos can be avoided for the sake of a good game? Or at least not show up all the time...

Does anyone know of a good source for 'counts as' Squats - i.e., "Space Dwarfs"?

I just love me some Exo-Armored stunties, for some reason.

Everything else you'd want can be pretty much found in the current GW line, in terms of Chaos, Marines, Orks, Eldar, etc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/08 15:55:09


   
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A.T. wrote:
Librarians were known to scoff at them with their toughness of 10, three stacked 4++ saves and rerolls.
Exarchs with swooping hawk wings and vortex grenades on the other hand...
I remember a game from years ago where a Lictor was locked in close combat with a Terminator Librarian. The Terminator couldn't beat the Lictor, but the Lictor couldn't hurt the Terminator. So there they stood, locked in a not-so-deadly stalemate. I presume they're still there to this day.

 Alpharius wrote:
I think the true kings of 40K 2nd edition were probably Space Wolves, Eldar and Chaos Marines?
Eldar. Yes. A thousand times Eldar. Cheating panzees!!!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/08 16:01:14


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I think if you're willing to look past 4th's "basic" missions, you'll find a lot of fun.


Yes, i love all the optional game mode rules in the 4th ed BRB. we have upscaled some of the mission layouts for full scale games like the bunker defense mission and the convoy assault.



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 Alpharius wrote:
 Pacific wrote:
Yep Oldhammer is massive on FB - tens of thousands in some of the groups, so I think if anyone interested posted on there they would probably find local players without too much trouble.

 Alpharius wrote:
Nostalgia has kicked in hard for me - I'm starting up 40K 2nd...again!

Now, the challenge will be finding like-minded players here in the 21st century, but either way, it will be a fun ride!


Well, was going to say it's a shame I am across the pond!

I've started toying with 2nd ed too, although so far have only got a few books and codecies. I am thinking of maybe Chaos, have just read Talon of Horus (awesome book btw if anyone hasn't read it!) but doing a scouring-era Sons of Horus force. So when they have been well and truly beaten and have their backs to the wall, trying to escape to the EoT, but still have their Legion code/brotherhood fraternity. Maybe against Imperial Guard or Eldar? (Who were great fun in 2nd ed). Would be a nice opportunity to do some conversions on the lovely new Chaos plastics, make them look slightly less chaos-y with a few 30k-era armour mods thrown in.

But need to finish off my Epic 30k/Great Crusade project first!


That sounds awesome - and a lot of fun to build, paint and play!

I think the true kings of 40K 2nd edition were probably Space Wolves, Eldar and Chaos Marines?

But at this point, playing 2nd Edition will be purely for fun, and some of the more game-breaking, fun-sapping combos can be avoided for the sake of a good game? Or at least not show up all the time...

Does anyone know of a good source for 'counts as' Squats - i.e., "Space Dwarfs"?

I just love me some Exo-Armored stunties, for some reason.

Everything else you'd want can be pretty much found in the current GW line, in terms of Chaos, Marines, Orks, Eldar, etc.


Squats wise today apart from converting a bunch of dwarves of which there are many miniature makers on the fantasy side, I know of:

Hasslefree has some Called 'Grymm' .
Grim Forge has literally a couple.
Wargames Atlantic have a plastic box set called 'Einherjar'
Also the AOS Kharadron Overlords work as squats too.

   
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 Shuma-Gorath wrote:
 Alpharius wrote:
 Pacific wrote:
Yep Oldhammer is massive on FB - tens of thousands in some of the groups, so I think if anyone interested posted on there they would probably find local players without too much trouble.

 Alpharius wrote:
Nostalgia has kicked in hard for me - I'm starting up 40K 2nd...again!

Now, the challenge will be finding like-minded players here in the 21st century, but either way, it will be a fun ride!


Well, was going to say it's a shame I am across the pond!

I've started toying with 2nd ed too, although so far have only got a few books and codecies. I am thinking of maybe Chaos, have just read Talon of Horus (awesome book btw if anyone hasn't read it!) but doing a scouring-era Sons of Horus force. So when they have been well and truly beaten and have their backs to the wall, trying to escape to the EoT, but still have their Legion code/brotherhood fraternity. Maybe against Imperial Guard or Eldar? (Who were great fun in 2nd ed). Would be a nice opportunity to do some conversions on the lovely new Chaos plastics, make them look slightly less chaos-y with a few 30k-era armour mods thrown in.

But need to finish off my Epic 30k/Great Crusade project first!


That sounds awesome - and a lot of fun to build, paint and play!

I think the true kings of 40K 2nd edition were probably Space Wolves, Eldar and Chaos Marines?

But at this point, playing 2nd Edition will be purely for fun, and some of the more game-breaking, fun-sapping combos can be avoided for the sake of a good game? Or at least not show up all the time...

Does anyone know of a good source for 'counts as' Squats - i.e., "Space Dwarfs"?

I just love me some Exo-Armored stunties, for some reason.

Everything else you'd want can be pretty much found in the current GW line, in terms of Chaos, Marines, Orks, Eldar, etc.


Squats wise today apart from converting a bunch of dwarves of which there are many miniature makers on the fantasy side, I know of:

Hasslefree has some Called 'Grymm' .
Grim Forge has literally a couple.
Wargames Atlantic have a plastic box set called 'Einherjar'
Also the AOS Kharadron Overlords work as squats too.


There's the obvious Mantic Forgefathers:

https://www.manticgames.com/games/warpath/forge-fathers/

   
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 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
2nd edition did have some tough character builds, but at least you always had the option of hitting them with a goobs lascannon. 2d6 wounds was never anything to scoff at.


Heavy bolter caused already D4 wounds. Heavy weapons were truly "heavy" weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
A.T. wrote:
Librarians were known to scoff at them with their toughness of 10, three stacked 4++ saves and rerolls.
Exarchs with swooping hawk wings and vortex grenades on the other hand...
I remember a game from years ago where a Lictor was locked in close combat with a Terminator Librarian. The Terminator couldn't beat the Lictor, but the Lictor couldn't hurt the Terminator. So there they stood, locked in a not-so-deadly stalemate. I presume they're still there to this day.

 Alpharius wrote:
I think the true kings of 40K 2nd edition were probably Space Wolves, Eldar and Chaos Marines?
Eldar. Yes. A thousand times Eldar. Cheating panzees!!!



Avatar in raging close combat:
Eldar player fires flamer/melta weapons in close combat without the chance of hurting the Avatar.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/08 22:18:17


 
   
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 Strg Alt wrote:
 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
2nd edition did have some tough character builds, but at least you always had the option of hitting them with a goobs lascannon. 2d6 wounds was never anything to scoff at.

Heavy bolter caused already D4 wounds. Heavy weapons were truly "heavy" weapons.
Yeah, and a Space Marine Captain had 3 wounds. Basically being hit with any heavy weapon was nerve wracking.

Assault Cannon did D10, making it suuuuuper dangerous with all its potential hits. Multimelta 2D12. Basically anything that failed it's save/s was toast.

 Strg Alt wrote:

Avatar in raging close combat:
Eldar player fires flamer/melta weapons in close combat without the chance of hurting the Avatar.

You know I never even considered that, but that's pretty great.

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Yes I remember the Multimelta, get hit with that and fail a save and get dissolved into a puddle of goo.

I remember having to make sure you had some of those (and also Lascannons, which I think were 2D6 wounds? I forget) to try and take out Carnifexes if playing against Nids.

Speaking of which - they were nasty as hell in 2nd edition. I would definitely say they were the 'broken' faction, beyond Space Wolves or Eldar. I remember one game against where I lost, but wasn't tabled, and that had happened every time we had played so I viewed it as a moral victory!

Space Wolves were ace in that you could fit in Terminator-armoured Wolf Guard in your standard squads. So you'd have the rest of the squad die around them, then the one guy with his "lol 2D6 saving throw" hanging around for some time after. With a decent CC weapon as well those guys were like mini champions and definitely a threat, even with only the one wound.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/09 13:22:01


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Spoletta wrote:

8th and 9th edition have a lot less realistic feel. They don't even try to look like a standard wargame. They use rules which are as generic as possible. Like the fact that they do not make any difference between vehicles and monstrous creatures.
This makes the edition a lot more flavorful but pays with a lot more complexity on codex level. The game was made generic, so it is very bland without the additional seasoning given by the specific factions and units.


Very good point about how they lok and feel - I have felt I am playing one of the many fantasy style games not a wargame when I use the armies in 40k now. (Though I would say complication not complexity is being added - the game remains quite basic but with lots of complicated interactions layered on top that still don't make it more complex...)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 aphyon wrote:


The reality was that in 4th unless you were a skimmer you were better off walking behind the transport than being in it.



Which of course is like a modern warfare game as your lightly armoured transports aren't meant to mix it up with AT weapons, your dismounts and support should neutralise those before you can continue on.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/09 14:43:42


 
   
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Which of course is like a modern warfare game as your lightly armoured transports aren't meant to mix it up with AT weapons, your dismounts and support should neutralise those before you can continue on.


In the abstract nature of the 40K game in distances, you require the transports to get you across the table so your infantry can dismount and deal with said threat. a properly laid out table will have enough LOS blocking terrain that makes using said transports an advantage if not necessary for non-horde or vehicle-less armies. 5th ed got the damage table correct IMHO, sure you had a chance to drop a vehicle with a well-placed shot (like in real life) however you were not nearly guaranteed a kill every time you hit like with the 4th ed tables.



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 Pacific wrote:
Yes I remember the Multimelta, get hit with that and fail a save and get dissolved into a puddle of goo.

I remember having to make sure you had some of those (and also Lascannons, which I think were 2D6 wounds? I forget) to try and take out Carnifexes if playing against Nids.

Speaking of which - they were nasty as hell in 2nd edition. I would definitely say they were the 'broken' faction, beyond Space Wolves or Eldar. I remember one game against where I lost, but wasn't tabled, and that had happened every time we had played so I viewed it as a moral victory!

Space Wolves were ace in that you could fit in Terminator-armoured Wolf Guard in your standard squads. So you'd have the rest of the squad die around them, then the one guy with his "lol 2D6 saving throw" hanging around for some time after. With a decent CC weapon as well those guys were like mini champions and definitely a threat, even with only the one wound.


Factions felt unique in 2nd because there were only a few of them which made making them play different a whole lot easier. When you faced the Tyranids for example your troops feared the prospect of being eaten alive. How was that possible as they never felt special since then? Before play the Tyranid player would roll on a table for each opposing unit of the opponent representing Tyranid creatures waging a guerilla war against them long before the 40K battle even started. This meant that those units began play with handicaps but sometimes even boni.

The classic one:
"Jones is acting strangely."
   
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I don't know where this "kill every time you got a hit" thing came in 4th.

In 4th, a Lascannon hitting a Chimera had a roughly 28% chance of destroying a Chimera with a single hit; in 5th it dropped to 17% (11% survivability increase in 5th).

Vs a Leman Russ:
11% to be killed by a Lascannon hit in 4th
6% to be killed by a Lascannon hit in 5th
(5% survivability increase)

This illustrates that in 4th, the ARMOR of a vehicle was more important to its survival than the DAMAGE MODEL, while in 5th, the DAMAGE MODEL tended to even out most vehicles (lighter armored vehicles got stronger relative to more heavily armored vehicles).

The effect of this can be seen in 5th easily, where transports dominated but main battle tanks really didn't.

4th is better IMHO precisely because "do I choose a Leman Russ or a Chimera full of Veterans" isn't automatically won by the mechanized infantry every single time.
   
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Mad Gyrocopter Pilot





washington state USA

You are mathhammering, dice averages are just that, an average. real world experience with 4th ed VS 5th was that unless you were in a devilfish or wave serpent your transports were pretty well death traps because of the combination of the vehicle damage tables and the rules for the infantry being transported when the vehicle exploded or got wrecked.

5th was an overall improvement over 4th in many areas of core rules save the wound allocation mechanic that got abused and vehicle assault rules.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/12/09 19:20:55




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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







 aphyon wrote:
You are mathhammering, dice averages are just that, an average. real world experience with 4th ed VS 5th was that unless you were in a devilfish or wave serpent your transports were pretty well death traps because of the combination of the vehicle damage tables and the rules for the infantry being transported when the vehicle exploded or got wrecked.

5th was an overall improvement over 4th in many areas of core rules save the wound allocation mechanic that got abused and vehicle assault rules.



I disagree. Getting rid of 4th edition terrain system in favor of TLOS was a mistake, as was adding "run" for everyone in addition.

And I also disagree that "real world experience" meant 5th was objectively better.When my friends and I agreed to play 4th, the first army I built explicitly for that edition was Armageddon Steel Legion. Now? Having played TONS of games with the edition just in the last few months? I think Chimeras and the way they cooperate with infantry is WAY BETTER than I remember in 5th.

When I played Mech Guard in 5th, what I was playing was a tank company that sometimes dropped off infantry if the tanks happened to die. Otherwise? No reason to ever disembark (until Turn 5 to stand on objectives herp derp). When I play Mech Guard in 4th, as I am now, I'm playing a Mechanized Infantry company, where the IFV (Chimera) is an integral part of the platoon it is in, and works in close concert with both mounted and dismounted infantry to achieve the mission objectives.

Heck, earlier in ANOTHER thread [the grog-hammer one] there was a discussion regarding "how to make transports not automatically better than footsloggers" and making the transport actually have drawbacks is one way to do that. A unit having a transport in 4th is gaining a tactical option, not bringing an auto-include.

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2021/12/09 19:39:59


 
   
 
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