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To quote from the pt1 thread;

... someone wants to make a new thread with some direct feedback points (e.g. "locking threads only encourages disruption", "rules aren't enforced often enough", etc), and can do so in a clear and concise manner without going to derpsville, have at it, I'll check in periodically to police things. Keep it on topic and we'll hear you out on whatever you have to say, but leave the commentary and history lessons out or people will be getting time-outs.

Now please abide by this or you really will be taking a vacation.

think you forgot to lock the thread Ingtaer?

Sorry for the confusion, I just copied from the close message from the last thread, I have no intention of having this one closed and will edit my previous message to remove that.

I want to repeat the thing I said before. You cannot fix ignorance with isolation. You fix it with education. There is nothing to be gained by shunting people off into a cancel corner. You're not fixing the problem. You're just giving it a space to fester.

I don't think it's always ignorance. I think there's a fair bit of cynicism in many cases.

You cannot have racism/sexism/isms which are the bread and butter of things like Nazi's and facism without ignorance. The only way you look at another person and determine they are not a person is to be ignorant of their ability to have experiences in any way like your own. Maybe you could call that a lack of empathy as well?

Sure. A lack of empathy built on a foundation of ignorance.

How do you fix people raised in a household where they are taught that that group over there is less deserving than you because they are not you?

Education. Nobody has ever escaped that way of thinking without being shown facts to prove their ideologies wrong.

There is some spirited exchange of conflicting views concerning sensitive subjects in this thread. Dakka is one of the few places where such a thing is allowed to thrive, given contemporary thin skinnedness. This has been said better by others, in this thread too, I just want to say how much I appreciate that the discussion can be had here.

For my part, I guess if you find yourself attacking someone else because they have an outfit with symbols that offend you, then regardless of symbolism, it ain’t the dude in the offensive shirt who is the nazi…

 jeff white wrote:

For my part, I guess if you find yourself attacking someone else because they have an outfit with symbols that offend you, then regardless of symbolism, it ain’t the dude in the offensive shirt who is the nazi…

I don't really agree with that either.

The paradox of tolerance is real. A society has a right to protect itself from destructive ideologies. When a guy shows up covered in the symbols of hate you don't have to welcome them in. The only way to FIX that person is to educate them. But in the meantime, nobody owes someone sporting the symbols of oppression and hate any kindness.

Individuals are judged by merits. Rocking Nazi symbolism is a choice you make that speaks to your merits. It is the only right and fair way to judge someone.

 jeff white wrote:
For my part, I guess if you find yourself attacking someone else because they have an outfit with symbols that offend you, then regardless of symbolism, it ain’t the dude in the offensive shirt who is the nazi…

"This person is dressed as a Nazi! That's a goddamn Nazi right there, who's core beliefs are centred on eradicating people like me. I think I'm allowed to be offended by the idea that someone wants me dead."
"Ah, but because you're offended by them, you're actually the real Nazi!"

Sorry, mods, you gonna let *that* slide?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
For my part, I guess if you find yourself attacking someone else because they have an outfit with symbols that offend you, then regardless of symbolism, it ain’t the dude in the offensive shirt who is the nazi…

"This person is dressed as a Nazi! That's a goddamn Nazi right there, who's core beliefs are centred on eradicating people like me. I think I'm allowed to be offended by the idea that someone wants me dead."
"Ah, but because you're offended by them, you're actually the real Nazi!"

Sorry, mods, you gonna let *that* slide?

Why not? They let users abusively call others fascists and nazis until the cows come home.

Why stop now?

I mean, 'If you're offended by someone self-identifying as a nazi, then you're a nazi' is a completely ridiculous thing to say, but beyond that it's not really a statement worthy of moderator attention.

 insaniak wrote:
I mean, 'If you're offended by someone self-identifying as a nazi, then you're a nazi' is a completely ridiculous thing to say, but beyond that it's not really a statement worthy of moderator attention.

I disagree. It's exactly the kind of tactics used to shut down actual criticism and identification of actual fascists or Nazis, which is what many posters here have been repeating over and over.
It's not about being able to openly do awful things - it's about obscuring them, and obfuscating them with these ridiculous sorts of "whataboutisms".

It's your site. I'm sorry, but for something which, as you say, is "completely ridiculous", you do have a responsibility to keep it straight. That includes shutting down things like that, such as the implication that "if you're offended by my clothes, you're a Nazi."

Imagine volunteering to moderate a miniature wargaming website because you like tabletop wargaming, and then you have to deal with threads like "Should slavery be legal" and.... *gestures vaguely* whatever this is.

Communism does hate those with capital and is just as willing to kill for its goal as fascism.

If only these folks can go to a certain subreddit where they can happily play tankie. Maybe we can throw the fascists there too, let em eat each other away.

You aren't going to be able to "educate" people who have an entirely different world view. We no longer agree on first principles, we aren't even watching the same movie.

 BlackoCatto wrote:
Communism does hate those with capital

Incorrect. It hates the *distribution* of capital in a certain way.

Unfortunately, for certain ethnicities, genders, and sexualities, such things cannot be removed from the person they are attached to.

And yet again - got to ask, why the need for "whatabout"-ry? Why the need to (incorrectly) say what other groups hate?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
I mean, 'If you're offended by someone self-identifying as a nazi, then you're a nazi' is a completely ridiculous thing to say, but beyond that it's not really a statement worthy of moderator attention.

I disagree. It's exactly the kind of tactics used to shut down actual criticism and identification of actual fascists or Nazis, which is what many posters here have been repeating over and over.

It's also exactly the sort of statement made by someone who believes that any group dictating how people should think or behave is similar to any other group dictating how people should think or behave, because they lack the education, experience and/or empathy to understand the differences.

This comes back to what I said early on in this whole mess. The fact that someone uses something you see as a 'fascist talking point' doesn't prove that they are a fascist, or a fascist sympathiser. Nor does someone saying something ignorant. At worst, I'd say this specific comment could perhaps be considered spam on account of not adding anything productive to the discussion and being utterly absurd. At best, I would assume that he just didn't think through what he was typing.

You'd have more of a point if said poster didn't have a history of that kind of post.

Good to see that we're not doing anything about the trashy avatar on GoldenHorde too.

 insaniak wrote:

This comes back to what I said early on in this whole mess. The fact that someone uses something you see as a 'fascist talking point' doesn't prove that they are a fascist, or a fascist sympathiser. Nor does someone saying something ignorant. At worst, I'd say this specific comment could perhaps be considered spam on account of not adding anything productive to the discussion and being utterly absurd. At best, I would assume that he just didn't think through what he was typing.

To add context to that;

It's been increasingly common in my experience that some people think Nordic runes look freaking cool. Look at them:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/CodexRunicus.jpeg

Slap that gak on a CGI wall and call it fantasy! It looks great!

Unfortunately, Nordic runes are the unwitting and helpless victims of Nazis also thinking they look freaking cool and slapping them on everything. Depending on context, a lot of people don't look at runes and assume 'Nazi.' We can paint runes on our Space Wolves (who so happen to be insane Human-supremicists who are okay with genociding non-humans when it suits them go figure) and I doubt most people will look at that and think Nazi. It might even be that someone really likes their Space Wolves and decided to go hunting for a slate gray hoodie with some Runes on them to wear so they can match their army. Probably still safe. But then they decided they just looked good in black and you know what let's make the runes red cause red and black are cliche but their cliche because they work and *red alarm*

Black and red with runes? Well that looks more than a bit Nazi.

I'll add to that in that yeah, actual Nazis totally love playing this 'maybe I am and maybe I'm not' game where they try to play off more obscure and common symbols as harmless. This is why we can't have nice things sometimes. It's possible to unwittingly fall into wearing something suspiciously Nazi without intending to and anyone who doubts the ability of a human being to do something by sheer ignorance is shocking optimistic about how well versed the average human is in 100 year old genocidal political movements. People are popular familiar with the Swastika. Definitely. Even the legit Nazis avoid wearing it overtly when they want to be incognito. The double sig rune? Yeah a lot of people probably know about that one two. The black sun icon and wolfsangle are so obscure, I doubt any typical person would ever even know about them without also knowing about their association with Nazism except maybe in Germany and the Nordic countries where this symbol is still used in mundane contexts.

The use of odal, algiz, and tyr runes are more obscure. Someone can totally stumble into them without realizing it and at that point someone might make an assumption.

Ironically, if your response to that assumption is 'well Stalin killed people too yah tankie' well... Way to achieve absolutely nothing but making a new hate-friend? Some people seem really eager to collect those immediately, rather than try to talk gak out and have serious broader conversations about the meaning and use of symbols in complex societies.

insaniak wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
I mean, 'If you're offended by someone self-identifying as a nazi, then you're a nazi' is a completely ridiculous thing to say, but beyond that it's not really a statement worthy of moderator attention.

I disagree. It's exactly the kind of tactics used to shut down actual criticism and identification of actual fascists or Nazis, which is what many posters here have been repeating over and over.

It's also exactly the sort of statement made by someone who believes that any group dictating how people should think or behave is similar to any other group dictating how people should think or behave, because they lack the education, experience and/or empathy to understand the differences.

It really isn't, and you *know* this.

The only difference in "dictating how people should think or behave" going on is that in the example given above, one group of people are telling the others not to wear certain clothes that are calling cards for slaughter, and the other are wearing those clothes.

Of the two, I think only one of those could be called empathetic.

This comes back to what I said early on in this whole mess. The fact that someone uses something you see as a 'fascist talking point' doesn't prove that they are a fascist, or a fascist sympathiser.

I never claimed it proved anything.

All I did claim is that it's a goddamn ridiculous comment, and only *empowers* those who might genuine want to cause harm (whoever they may be) to do it.
I'm not calling anyone a Nazi. I'm saying that the *actions* of certain people are empowering them though, and that maybe you need to consider how to deal with that.

At worst, I'd say this specific comment could perhaps be considered spam on account of not adding anything productive to the discussion and being utterly absurd. At best, I would assume that he just didn't think through what he was typing.

At best, I'd call this take optimistic.

 Kanluwen wrote:
You'd have more of a point if said poster didn't have a history of that kind of post.

Good to see that we're not doing anything about the trashy avatar on GoldenHorde too.

To be fair, I think you could change your avatar to a panorama of naked Stormcast on Dakka and still not have anyone ask for it changed.

 LordofHats wrote:
I'll add to that in that yeah, actual Nazis totally love playing this 'maybe I am and maybe I'm not' game where they try to play off more obscure and common symbols as harmless. This is why we can't have nice things sometimes. It's possible to unwittingly fall into wearing something suspiciously Nazi without intending to and anyone who doubts the ability of a human being to do something by sheer ignorance is shocking optimistic about how well versed the average human is in 100 year old genocidal political movements. People are popular familiar with the Swastika. Definitely. Even the legit Nazis avoid wearing it overtly when they want to be incognito. The double sig rune? Yeah a lot of people probably know about that one two. The black sun icon and wolfsangle are so obscure, I doubt any typical person would ever even know about them without also knowing about their association with Nazism except maybe in Germany and the Nordic countries where this symbol is still used in mundane contexts.

The use of odal, algiz, and tyr runes are more obscure. Someone can totally stumble into them without realizing it and at that point someone might make an assumption.

This is all absolutely true. The only way to deal with it is to be *aware* of these kinds of dogwhistles. I'm not saying "ban on sight", but I am saying "when you see this, keep an eye on it, and see what other kinds of stuff creeps up around it", and certainly not "it might just be ignorance, let's ignore it and never speak of it again".

The trick is in identifying patterns around people, and that includes when people attempt to obfuscate those patterns repeatedly, and insistently, as many users here do.

Whatabout those ethnicities in current day forced slave labour camps being co-opted into production?

Who cares.

I'm more worried about an isolated incident about someone's garb.

So much so, we'll crush any discussion of the former on dakkadakka.

Then we will beatstick you when you have frustrations about being censored and essentially strangled by rampant double standards.

 LordofHats wrote:
Black and red with runes? Well that looks more than a bit Nazi.

That's... superficial.

If people are advertising their beliefs on they're clothes, yeah I'm going to judge them. And if their wearing a swastika or a picture of Mao or the symbol of the red army, they're most likely douchebags I have no interest in being around them. If you don't like that I group those three together that's your problem.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:
Black and red with runes? Well that looks more than a bit Nazi.

That's... superficial.

Welcome to humanity.

It's superficial species.

 Irkjoe wrote:
You aren't going to be able to "educate" people who have an entirely different world view. We no longer agree on first principles, we aren't even watching the same movie.

If thats true the only way for you to stop them is to exterminate them. So... enjoy that. Do what they do because they do it. That type of juvenile logic always ends well.

GoldenHorde wrote:Whatabout those ethnicities in current day forced slave labour camps being co-opted into production?

Why do you act like those are mutually exclusive concerns?

Why the need to derail from this one?

Jerram wrote:If people are advertising their beliefs on they're clothes, yeah I'm going to judge them. And if their wearing a swastika or a picture of Mao or the symbol of the red army, they're most likely douchebags I have no interest in being around them. If you don't like that I group those three together that's your problem.

I have to ask, why did you feel the need to mention that you group them?
I've no love for any of the three you mentioned, but why mention them at all?

If I say "I don't like peanut butter sandwiches", and you say "ah, but I don't like jam sandwiches", I have to question what jam sandwiches have to do with peanut butter, and why one felt the need to mention they didn't like jam sandwiches.

There's nothing wrong with agreeing that Nazis are trash. I just gotta *ask* why the need for some folks to always throw in how much they also think XYZ is trash too?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:
Black and red with runes? Well that looks more than a bit Nazi.

That's... superficial.

Sure. but it's sadly the association lodged in people's minds, by this point. And why I don't wear this shirt outside the house.

 insaniak wrote:

Sure. but it's sadly the association lodged in people's minds, by this point. And why I don't wear this shirt outside the house.

Shame too.

It's a sick shirt.

Unfortunately, people who know about Nazism but know little of 40k probably presume the former and not the latter on seeing it.

Though look at the bright side. You won't wear it out so you can keep wearing it to special occasions like your next tabletop convention