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Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






 godardc wrote:
The reactions system takes the tactical side out of the game, because you can correct your mistake and simply avoid being charged or shoot at.
While before you had to carefully think about placement, moving, lines of sights etc

You still have to think about these things, unless you've taken the limits on Reactions out of your games for some reason. You can use a limited amount of Reactions in your turn and there are specific times you must decide to activate the reacting unit. Overwatch, for example, has to be activated when an enemy unit declares a charge, it doesn't matter if the charge is successful you must Overwatch if you choose the Reaction. There are also limits on what units can do. Vehicles, for example, can only use Overwatch and Return Fire with defensive weapons i.e. weapons of s6 or below, so you can't dump a Spartan's worth of Lascannon shots into an enemy unit as a Reaction.

And both players / armies are supposed to be playing at the same time, the turn system is just a way to represent this, moving during the opponent's turn doesn't make sense except maybe for particular
(usually speedy) units with some special rule likes the Tau battlesuits had

It's a turn-based game, how time works in-game is a moot point and always has been.


And there is only a handful reactions isn't a good argument when there is only a few units on the table. How many palatine blades squads will be on the battlefield ? How many terminator units ? Usually, one, maybe two in a 3,000 pts army. Avoiding this important, decisive assault, not because you are good but because you pushed a button and winning like this, is definitely not good

Two things:
1 - If you're playing at 3k points and have one super killy unit, that's your fault. In my friend's Blood Angel list at 2k points, they have Crimson Paladins, Dawnbringers, Angels Tears with Assault Cannons, and the jump Contemptor while also having 2 Tactical Squads mounted in Rhinos and one of the BA named characters. Another's Tsons list has 30 Tacticals, Tartaros Terminators, Sehkmet Terminators, a Vindicator, a full Lascannon Predator, a juiced-up Librarian, and a juiced-up Praetor all in 2k points. I think you maybe need to get better at list building chief.
2 - I'm not sure you understand exactly how these Reactions work if you think that one movement Reaction will win you the game. That or you are hyper-focusing on individual examples rather than the game as a whole, in which case you need to broaden your viewpoint.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba




The Great State of New Jersey

Thats... an opinion. Not a good one, but its an opinion.

Way I see it is that it makes the game way more tactical. I can now bait my opponent by intentionally putting units in a vulnerable position only to potentially use a reaction to mess with my opponents plans (and in fact, that is exactly what I have done in multiple games now). My opponent now needs to more carefully consider their actions and order of activations in order to ensure that *they* don't make a mistake by mismanaging their resources in the face of my reactions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
I think you maybe need to get better at list building chief.


I think he needs to get better at playing, if the only use for reactions that he can imagine is "correcting mistakes" then he isn't very tactically creative or resourceful. I would argue that "correcting mistakes" is probably the worst possible use for reactions and an indicator of a very passive playstyle.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/28 11:57:43


CoALabaer wrote:
Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





chaos0xomega wrote:
Thats... an opinion. Not a good one, but its an opinion.

Way I see it is that it makes the game way more tactical. I can now bait my opponent by intentionally putting units in a vulnerable position only to potentially use a reaction to mess with my opponents plans (and in fact, that is exactly what I have done in multiple games now). My opponent now needs to more carefully consider their actions and order of activations in order to ensure that *they* don't make a mistake by mismanaging their resources in the face of my reactions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
I think you maybe need to get better at list building chief.


I think he needs to get better at playing, if the only use for reactions that he can imagine is "correcting mistakes" then he isn't very tactically creative or resourceful. I would argue that "correcting mistakes" is probably the worst possible use for reactions and an indicator of a very passive playstyle.


excatly so, baiting is all part of tactics. yougoIgo without any sort of reacction system is utterly tacticless because you seldom need to worry about how your enemy will respond to your movements

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





 godardc wrote:
The reactions system takes the tactical side out of the game


They make the game more tactical in the same way stratagems do but without all the bloat. I think reactions are a perfect middle ground between not having anything and every army having 30 unique strats that become impossible to remember.
   
Made in ca
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






To say reactions take the tactical side out of the game is kinda hilarious becuase if anything it makes it more tactical because now, you are not only performing actions with the idea of what your opponent could do in their turn, but how they could use reactions as well, resulting in letting you try and bait them out.
OR even further to bait them into a reaction that you want to use on them.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in es
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer






Toofast wrote:
 godardc wrote:
The reactions system takes the tactical side out of the game


They make the game more tactical in the same way stratagems do but without all the bloat. I think reactions are a perfect middle ground between not having anything and every army having 30 unique strats that become impossible to remember.


Stratagems don't really make the game more tactical, though. They make the game more "Hah! Gotcha!"

I can't really comment on reactions, though.
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






There is a far fewer unknowables with Reactions. There are only the core rulebook ones and the ones found in each Legion book, so currently you only won't know 8 advanced Reactions from whatever Legion book you don't have.
   
Made in ca
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Gert wrote:
There is a far fewer unknowables with Reactions. There are only the core rulebook ones and the ones found in each Legion book, so currently you only won't know 8 advanced Reactions from whatever Legion book you don't have.


This and of those 8 you dont know, only 1 will be applicable and you can just ask your opponent what it is.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





Ottawa Ontario Canada

 Albertorius wrote:
Toofast wrote:
 godardc wrote:
The reactions system takes the tactical side out of the game


They make the game more tactical in the same way stratagems do but without all the bloat. I think reactions are a perfect middle ground between not having anything and every army having 30 unique strats that become impossible to remember.


Stratagems don't really make the game more tactical, though. They make the game more "Hah! Gotcha!"

I can't really comment on reactions, though.


Same thing


Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.  
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





 Gert wrote:
Its also incredibly funny to say "you've activated my trap card!".


i am a yugi boomer and i love doing that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 godardc wrote:
The reactions system takes the tactical side out of the game, because you can correct your mistake and simply avoid being charged or shoot at.
While before you had to carefully think about placement, moving, lines of sights etc
And both players / armies are supposed to be playing at the same time, the turn system is just a way to represent this, moving during the opponent's turn doesn't make sense except maybe for particular
(usually speedy) units with some special rule likes the Tau battlesuits had
And there is only a handful reactions isn't a good argument when there is only a few units on the table. How many palatine blades squads will be on the battlefield ? How many terminator units ? Usually, one, maybe two in a 3,000 pts army. Avoiding this important, decisive assault, not because you are good but because you pushed a button and winning like this, is definitely not good


thats where snipers and pining units down comes in. like in a real war you need a combined force to win and move on. its very tactical. if you dont pin them down you will get crushed crossing no mans land like in WW1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Albertorius wrote:
Toofast wrote:
 godardc wrote:
The reactions system takes the tactical side out of the game


They make the game more tactical in the same way stratagems do but without all the bloat. I think reactions are a perfect middle ground between not having anything and every army having 30 unique strats that become impossible to remember.


Stratagems don't really make the game more tactical, though. They make the game more "Hah! Gotcha!"

I can't really comment on reactions, though.


stratagems made me quit 40k. there where to many. the reactions being a small number and everyone have the same one not counting the single legion spesific one is way balanced.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crablezworth wrote:
 Albertorius wrote:
Toofast wrote:
 godardc wrote:
The reactions system takes the tactical side out of the game


They make the game more tactical in the same way stratagems do but without all the bloat. I think reactions are a perfect middle ground between not having anything and every army having 30 unique strats that become impossible to remember.


Stratagems don't really make the game more tactical, though. They make the game more "Hah! Gotcha!"

I can't really comment on reactions, though.


Same thing




having played both game systems now. there not. even the outer curcle will tell you that. been watching him for years. he is not always right.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/06/29 00:31:51


 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 Crablezworth wrote:
 Albertorius wrote:
Toofast wrote:
 godardc wrote:
The reactions system takes the tactical side out of the game


They make the game more tactical in the same way stratagems do but without all the bloat. I think reactions are a perfect middle ground between not having anything and every army having 30 unique strats that become impossible to remember.


Stratagems don't really make the game more tactical, though. They make the game more "Hah! Gotcha!"

I can't really comment on reactions, though.


Same thing




memes don't win arguments how are reactions JUST like strats, and how does this make them bad? you need to address this if you're going to keep posting this stuff



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/06/29 00:33:38


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





Ottawa Ontario Canada

"you need to address this if you're going to keep posting this stuff" Cough op cough

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/804752.page#11352309

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/06/29 00:56:36


Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.  
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight



Cadia

Toofast wrote:
 godardc wrote:
The reactions system takes the tactical side out of the game


They make the game more tactical in the same way stratagems do but without all the bloat. I think reactions are a perfect middle ground between not having anything and every army having 30 unique strats that become impossible to remember.


Properly manipulating the exact details of the rules gimmick =/= tactical. Reactions are better than straight IGOUGO but they're still a bad mechanic and GW needs to admit that IGOUGO is the problem instead of trying to tack on awkwardly limited pseudo-activations.

THE PLANET BROKE BEFORE THE GUARD! 
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

 Crablezworth wrote:
"you need to address this if you're going to keep posting this stuff" Cough op cough

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/804752.page#11352309


I mean you set the topic as "Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far" so posting memes and saying you refuse to even try HH 2.0 seems pretty off topic.

I'll be honest, I'm looking forward to games but I'm also looking forward to when GW finally shows me what Night Lord upgrade sprues will look like so I can decide how I want to approach building my models. Box finally came in yesterday after shipping almost a week after the release date.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
"you need to address this if you're going to keep posting this stuff" Cough op cough

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/804752.page#11352309


I mean you set the topic as "Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far" so posting memes and saying you refuse to even try HH 2.0 seems pretty off topic.

I'll be honest, I'm looking forward to games but I'm also looking forward to when GW finally shows me what Night Lord upgrade sprues will look like so I can decide how I want to approach building my models. Box finally came in yesterday after shipping almost a week after the release date.


i was in the same boat. just got mine today after ordering it when the pre orders first went live.

yah the thread name dont match up well with the op. openly asks for peoples thoughts and then just memes and refuses to even play. from what i have seen the game seams to be well liked.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





kinda reeks of looking for confirmation bias doesn't it?

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





 Crablezworth wrote:
"you need to address this if you're going to keep posting this stuff" Cough op cough

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/804752.page#11352309



wait a sec your the guys from youtube that responded to my comment. lol 52 minutes i will never get back.
@Matthew "its almost like its a modern combined arms game where you have to think" X Doubt
haha it is a combined arms game. i need a unit to pin a target inplace. i need a sniper to take out there problem people. then i need a unit to finish the job.
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





Ottawa Ontario Canada

ashlevrier wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
"you need to address this if you're going to keep posting this stuff" Cough op cough

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/804752.page#11352309



wait a sec your the guys from youtube that responded to my comment. lol 52 minutes i will never get back.
@Matthew "its almost like its a modern combined arms game where you have to think" X Doubt
haha it is a combined arms game. i need a unit to pin a target inplace. i need a sniper to take out there problem people. then i need a unit to finish the job.


The video is literally linked in the original post


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
"you need to address this if you're going to keep posting this stuff" Cough op cough

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/804752.page#11352309


I mean you set the topic as "Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far"


The title of the video has the word our in it, forgot to put that here




This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/06/29 05:12:01


Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.  
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





 Crablezworth wrote:
Sat down and talked about the leaks for HH 2.0, it's mostly discussion and commentary, wouldn't look to this to be informed, it's mostly about what has changed between editions and demonstrating that with models/terrain, like changes to movement and so on. I forgot to plug in the battery charger so we was scrambling between like 3 batteries all under like 30-40% power so I kept having to check to see if we were still recording, camera doesn't make a noise if the battery is what causes the recording to stop and external monitor was elsewhere. Anyway, pretty loose discussion, we're hoping to do some more as more things materialize. In both our cases, we're a bit burned out on alternating activation, been playing AT mostly, so the reactions stuff really didn't sit well, it seemed initially contained but quickly proved to be much more ingrained in the rules. It seems difficult to extricate from the rules, unlike in adeptus titanicus where we could just agree to not use stratagems or limit them. We recently got back to playing 30k 1.0 and what felt like a breath of fresh air was, our turns were our own.

There can be a lot of decision paralysis in games with alternating activations and gotcha mechanics like stratagems. What's refreshing about playing a good old fashioned turn based game again in terms of 30k is, the movement phase is your movement phase, the shooting phase you can again take as it comes and target what you want and maybe even change your mind as you go based on your success and failures in terms of hits/misses, combat phase even feels like you're in the driver seat, you can actually decide the order of everything and what units if any you wish to attempt to assault. None of this is contingent on constantly alternating with your opponent to counter the action you just took. Alternating activation can be great and very enjoyable, but decision paralysis and weird interactions can lead to forgetting where you're at, in adeptus titanicus for example something like a machine spirit getting angry can lead to a whole bunch of sorta extra attacks or damage or a series of bizarre occurrence that can often sorta exist outside of time, because you often sorta resolve it all then get right back to alternating activation, it feels like time dilation sometimes, it can get a bit confusing picking up where you were. The reactions in HH 2.0 start at 2 per phase and there are some limits, but quickly you realize wargear, characters and warlord traits can expand on these limits. In addition, special reactions seem to be part of every legion, meaning just like stratagems there will be a lot of them to contend with and have to commit to memory. And much like the "muh bespoke" laziness of special rules where one usr or reaction might do, some reaction for legios might just be a better version of an existing reaction or functionally identical but more movement value. The counter play basically seems like more stuff causes pinning and pinned units can't use strats/react.

Why the introductions of reactions really get away from itself quickly is you have wargear like say augery scanners that will give intercepts that don't count towards the total reactions you can do in an opponents phase and intercepting doesn't seem to have any downside unlike the current edition, then you have stuff like "the last unit you moved ended with x of my unit, so now i can move away x or advance x or shoot your unit ect. So your turn is no longer your own and decision paralysis will be high or people are going to get very anal about measuring, especially if you end perhaps one inch further than intended triggering a potential reaction, some of us play tired, and all of a sudden trigger a huge string of reactions from your opponent. The other issue is how to scale something like this for games with multiple players or mega battles. How would a 2v2 work realistically if you can grind down and disrupt your opponents turn twice as much as normal, and the same on your turn. I mean that's one thing on an 8x4, but how big can you go, mega battles tend to be at times on longer board like 12x4 ect, so like two long lines clashing, even if you tried to limit reactions how would the accounting of it all even be possible to all participants? These were complex enough to play in a reasonable time in 1.0. "Sorry steve, you can't evade anymore, we ran out of the concept of trying to actively not get shot" and evade means basically everything can do crappier jink now, but not too many! (ugh) This is meant to replace like going to ground, but I'm not sure why you'd do that or need to limit how many units go to ground, going to ground in hh 1.0 is basically self pinning your own unit, and it's often done out of desperation, like just trying to not get shot off an objective. This hybrid choice also sees stuff like treaded vehicles basically being able to jink/evade/go to ground, whatever you wanna call it.

There are bizarre changes to much loved units like javelins, sabre tanks are now much faster, or at least able to be in terms of overall movement. We had hoped that terrain would be addressed because it was something lacking in 1.0, we often used/borrowed terrain rules from the 6th 40k book because it had detailed rules for ruins and various other types of terrain, as well as an overall recommendation of density and a methodology for players to discuss and agree on terrain before dice roll. The biggest thing was like delineating what could and could not move on or deploy on the upper floors of ruins and how pathing worked, like melting through walls or doors and so on. It was useful because it helped keep say a unit on bikes from being able to assault a unit entirely on the 2nd floor of a ruin, or keep people from placing artillery on top of ruins or sillier stuff like rhinos. Sadly 2.0 basically just says "it's difficult terrain" for the most part. In addition cover saves have basically got worse across the board. I think a range of cover saves is better than pushing them mostly towards 5-6+. We mostly played ruins and most solid cover as 4+ in our games of HH and most low cover (sand bags/fences) as 5+.

I don't want to seem to negative, I'm actually quite happy that we'll be seeing new plastics and hopefully support for some time. What I think I'm more skeptical of is even with the pandemic winding down and gaming getting back to more normalcy/frequency I still don't think that means games/hobbyists will see a marked difference in their free time, if anything with more people perhaps no longer working from home as much, they may also eat into hobby/gaming time in terms of commuting/daily grind being more taxing/stressful. Anyway. what I'm saying is outside of people buying the models just to build and paint, the people intending or perhaps fooling themselves into starting HH 2.0 is I don't know if it will last for all of them, simply because like any new game it will likely come at the expense of less attention paid to other games. Can only play so many wargames regularly. There's a section of gamers likely just going to buy the models for 40k use no matter what. Will they suddenly decide they prefer 30k? I don't think it will hook all of them, the same way AT has a vast but limited appeal, only in that its mono faction and there aren't any xenos, much like 30k with the exception of daemons of the ruinstorm and a few other factions outside of marines, but all generally imperial or traitor. Not quite the same as the amount of factions in 9th in terms of all the xenos factions and variety. I just know it will likely have to in some cases cannibalize from other games to hold it's niche, while its possible to conceive of playing both 40k and 30k, I just think it won't have enough to keep the majority of 40k fans invested, at least in the way they are with 9th. The other concern is gw emulating more and more of 9th ed decision marking to try and bring them in. The last tournament I photographed, the majority of 30k models were being used for 40k.

My interest is to continue playing 30k 1.0 based on the leaks. I'll be very content to have a shiny new plastic spartan and potential other new things if gw releases some cool stuff. But I'm gonna do what I can't help but feel most of the 40k players will do also do, buy the models that are cool and use them for another game than HH 2.0. More videos to come.






okay i will brake this down. lets see.

your fist wall of text. most is not realy about the game but in the last part you talk about being burnt out on the alternating turns. thats not the games fault. sounds like you need a brake from AT.

your second wall of text. frist its one per phase. but theres two options to pick from. you dont need to know all 18 legion reactions. just ask your friend what his is then its only one you need to remember. decision paralysis is none existent in this game. i have seen that in games like a billion suns where my friend could not make a decision because theres so many options that its hard to make a right call. forcing you do take into concideration that your friend can interupt your turn is a bonus. it makes how you do things and when to do things matter more. turns in a game are not spit secs. they could be hours or more. if you think a warlord titan is doing all that in seconds then it just makes it seam funny. there not eldar there walking battleships. also after reading how drop pod assaults work now yah you need the intercept every where because your dropping your army right in there face on turn one. gone are the days of drop and alpha strike your friend off the table with no responce. it balences it to where both sides will be damaged. theres also no "you activated my trap card. you know what there options are in each phase of the game.

next wall of text. theres no string of reactions because you moved into a bad spot. theres one reaction. mega battles never worked well in any system. they take to long and complicate a game made to be a 1v1. when you expand the scop of the game beyond its limits then your going to brake something.

next wall of text. simplifying the rules for terrain is a good thing. nothing is stoping you from talking to your friend and making your own calls on how a thing like what can go where.

finaly the last wall of text. your negative. life gets in the way. people will make time for what they love. you cant say that it will just ruin peoples time for 2.0 only. all games will be affected equaly. people can do what ever they want with there stuff. suddenly liking 30k Hmmm yes. whats your point there. some people will try and decide to not like it. again whats your point. no game ever hooks everyone. whats your point. "cannibalize from other games to hold it's niche" could you explane what you mean there. you went to a 40k tournament what did you expect to happen. them to be playing 30k in a 40k tournament.

there i am going to bed. you didnt put the your part in the forum title. you left it open to everyones thoughts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/29 05:28:14


 
   
Made in gb
Mysterious Techpriest







ashlevrier wrote:
Spoiler:
 Crablezworth wrote:
Sat down and talked about the leaks for HH 2.0, it's mostly discussion and commentary, wouldn't look to this to be informed, it's mostly about what has changed between editions and demonstrating that with models/terrain, like changes to movement and so on. I forgot to plug in the battery charger so we was scrambling between like 3 batteries all under like 30-40% power so I kept having to check to see if we were still recording, camera doesn't make a noise if the battery is what causes the recording to stop and external monitor was elsewhere. Anyway, pretty loose discussion, we're hoping to do some more as more things materialize. In both our cases, we're a bit burned out on alternating activation, been playing AT mostly, so the reactions stuff really didn't sit well, it seemed initially contained but quickly proved to be much more ingrained in the rules. It seems difficult to extricate from the rules, unlike in adeptus titanicus where we could just agree to not use stratagems or limit them. We recently got back to playing 30k 1.0 and what felt like a breath of fresh air was, our turns were our own.

There can be a lot of decision paralysis in games with alternating activations and gotcha mechanics like stratagems. What's refreshing about playing a good old fashioned turn based game again in terms of 30k is, the movement phase is your movement phase, the shooting phase you can again take as it comes and target what you want and maybe even change your mind as you go based on your success and failures in terms of hits/misses, combat phase even feels like you're in the driver seat, you can actually decide the order of everything and what units if any you wish to attempt to assault. None of this is contingent on constantly alternating with your opponent to counter the action you just took. Alternating activation can be great and very enjoyable, but decision paralysis and weird interactions can lead to forgetting where you're at, in adeptus titanicus for example something like a machine spirit getting angry can lead to a whole bunch of sorta extra attacks or damage or a series of bizarre occurrence that can often sorta exist outside of time, because you often sorta resolve it all then get right back to alternating activation, it feels like time dilation sometimes, it can get a bit confusing picking up where you were. The reactions in HH 2.0 start at 2 per phase and there are some limits, but quickly you realize wargear, characters and warlord traits can expand on these limits. In addition, special reactions seem to be part of every legion, meaning just like stratagems there will be a lot of them to contend with and have to commit to memory. And much like the "muh bespoke" laziness of special rules where one usr or reaction might do, some reaction for legios might just be a better version of an existing reaction or functionally identical but more movement value. The counter play basically seems like more stuff causes pinning and pinned units can't use strats/react.

Why the introductions of reactions really get away from itself quickly is you have wargear like say augery scanners that will give intercepts that don't count towards the total reactions you can do in an opponents phase and intercepting doesn't seem to have any downside unlike the current edition, then you have stuff like "the last unit you moved ended with x of my unit, so now i can move away x or advance x or shoot your unit ect. So your turn is no longer your own and decision paralysis will be high or people are going to get very anal about measuring, especially if you end perhaps one inch further than intended triggering a potential reaction, some of us play tired, and all of a sudden trigger a huge string of reactions from your opponent. The other issue is how to scale something like this for games with multiple players or mega battles. How would a 2v2 work realistically if you can grind down and disrupt your opponents turn twice as much as normal, and the same on your turn. I mean that's one thing on an 8x4, but how big can you go, mega battles tend to be at times on longer board like 12x4 ect, so like two long lines clashing, even if you tried to limit reactions how would the accounting of it all even be possible to all participants? These were complex enough to play in a reasonable time in 1.0. "Sorry steve, you can't evade anymore, we ran out of the concept of trying to actively not get shot" and evade means basically everything can do crappier jink now, but not too many! (ugh) This is meant to replace like going to ground, but I'm not sure why you'd do that or need to limit how many units go to ground, going to ground in hh 1.0 is basically self pinning your own unit, and it's often done out of desperation, like just trying to not get shot off an objective. This hybrid choice also sees stuff like treaded vehicles basically being able to jink/evade/go to ground, whatever you wanna call it.

There are bizarre changes to much loved units like javelins, sabre tanks are now much faster, or at least able to be in terms of overall movement. We had hoped that terrain would be addressed because it was something lacking in 1.0, we often used/borrowed terrain rules from the 6th 40k book because it had detailed rules for ruins and various other types of terrain, as well as an overall recommendation of density and a methodology for players to discuss and agree on terrain before dice roll. The biggest thing was like delineating what could and could not move on or deploy on the upper floors of ruins and how pathing worked, like melting through walls or doors and so on. It was useful because it helped keep say a unit on bikes from being able to assault a unit entirely on the 2nd floor of a ruin, or keep people from placing artillery on top of ruins or sillier stuff like rhinos. Sadly 2.0 basically just says "it's difficult terrain" for the most part. In addition cover saves have basically got worse across the board. I think a range of cover saves is better than pushing them mostly towards 5-6+. We mostly played ruins and most solid cover as 4+ in our games of HH and most low cover (sand bags/fences) as 5+.

I don't want to seem to negative, I'm actually quite happy that we'll be seeing new plastics and hopefully support for some time. What I think I'm more skeptical of is even with the pandemic winding down and gaming getting back to more normalcy/frequency I still don't think that means games/hobbyists will see a marked difference in their free time, if anything with more people perhaps no longer working from home as much, they may also eat into hobby/gaming time in terms of commuting/daily grind being more taxing/stressful. Anyway. what I'm saying is outside of people buying the models just to build and paint, the people intending or perhaps fooling themselves into starting HH 2.0 is I don't know if it will last for all of them, simply because like any new game it will likely come at the expense of less attention paid to other games. Can only play so many wargames regularly. There's a section of gamers likely just going to buy the models for 40k use no matter what. Will they suddenly decide they prefer 30k? I don't think it will hook all of them, the same way AT has a vast but limited appeal, only in that its mono faction and there aren't any xenos, much like 30k with the exception of daemons of the ruinstorm and a few other factions outside of marines, but all generally imperial or traitor. Not quite the same as the amount of factions in 9th in terms of all the xenos factions and variety. I just know it will likely have to in some cases cannibalize from other games to hold it's niche, while its possible to conceive of playing both 40k and 30k, I just think it won't have enough to keep the majority of 40k fans invested, at least in the way they are with 9th. The other concern is gw emulating more and more of 9th ed decision marking to try and bring them in. The last tournament I photographed, the majority of 30k models were being used for 40k.

My interest is to continue playing 30k 1.0 based on the leaks. I'll be very content to have a shiny new plastic spartan and potential other new things if gw releases some cool stuff. But I'm gonna do what I can't help but feel most of the 40k players will do also do, buy the models that are cool and use them for another game than HH 2.0. More videos to come.






okay i will brake this down. lets see.

your fist wall of text. most is not realy about the game but in the last part you talk about being burnt out on the alternating turns. thats not the games fault. sounds like you need a brake from AT.

your second wall of text. frist its one per phase. but theres two options to pick from. you dont need to know all 18 legion reactions. just ask your friend what his is then its only one you need to remember. decision paralysis is none existent in this game. i have seen that in games like a billion suns where my friend could not make a decision because theres so many options that its hard to make a right call. forcing you do take into concideration that your friend can interupt your turn is a bonus. it makes how you do things and when to do things matter more. turns in a game are not spit secs. they could be hours or more. if you think a warlord titan is doing all that in seconds then it just makes it seam funny. there not eldar there walking battleships. also after reading how drop pod assaults work now yah you need the intercept every where because your dropping your army right in there face on turn one. gone are the days of drop and alpha strike your friend off the table with no responce. it balences it to where both sides will be damaged. theres also no "you activated my trap card. you know what there options are in each phase of the game.

next wall of text. theres no string of reactions because you moved into a bad spot. theres one reaction. mega battles never worked well in any system. they take to long and complicate a game made to be a 1v1. when you expand the scop of the game beyond its limits then your going to brake something.

next wall of text. simplifying the rules for terrain is a good thing. nothing is stoping you from talking to your friend and making your own calls on how a thing like what can go where.

finaly the last wall of text. your negative. life gets in the way. people will make time for what they love. you cant say that it will just ruin peoples time for 2.0 only. all games will be affected equaly. people can do what ever they want with there stuff. suddenly liking 30k Hmmm yes. whats your point there. some people will try and decide to not like it. again whats your point. no game ever hooks everyone. whats your point. "cannibalize from other games to hold it's niche" could you explane what you mean there. you went to a 40k tournament what did you expect to happen. them to be playing 30k in a 40k tournament.

there i am going to bed. you didnt put the your part in the forum title. you left it open to everyones thoughts.


Hi! Welcome!

People who have been invested in the game to the tune of thousands are absolutely entitled to dislike changes.

The issue i'm seeing here is the people who like it can't see that it's fundamentally a different game because of it.

Mark me.
You will realize one day that you actually like IGOUGO and concurrent phases are the greener grass next door.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..  
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





Ottawa Ontario Canada

 SirDonlad wrote:


Hi! Welcome!

People who have been invested in the game to the tune of thousands are absolutely entitled to dislike changes.

The issue i'm seeing here is the people who like it can't see that it's fundamentally a different game because of it.

Mark me.
You will realize one day that you actually like IGOUGO and concurrent phases are the greener grass next door.


A decade is a long time to play a game, it's also a fairly stable time too, so was never in some fiendish need for new rules, took to 30k to avoid post 7th 40k. Agreed that it is a fundamentally different game now, but thankfully 1.0 works pretty well.

Agreed on the igougo, works well for 1.0

The plastic spartan is pretty cool so far, hoping to get it done soon. The rebasing of everything on 32's is gonna take longer, need to get like 60+ 32mm's. I guess I shouldn't be working on it and instead forcing myself to play 2.0

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/29 19:55:54


Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.  
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight



Cadia

 SirDonlad wrote:
Mark me.
You will realize one day that you actually like IGOUGO and concurrent phases are the greener grass next door.


I wouldn't bet much on it. IGOUGO is a bad mechanic and the rest of the gaming world has moved on from it for good reasons. Having played games with both types of turn structure I have never thought "I wish this game was IGOUGO".

THE PLANET BROKE BEFORE THE GUARD! 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





Ottawa Ontario Canada

CadianSgtBob wrote:
 SirDonlad wrote:
Mark me.
You will realize one day that you actually like IGOUGO and concurrent phases are the greener grass next door.


I wouldn't bet much on it. IGOUGO is a bad mechanic and the rest of the gaming world has moved on from it for good reasons. Having played games with both types of turn structure I have never thought "I wish this game was IGOUGO".



"the rest of the gaming world has moved on"

It really hasn't.




It's also worth pointing out that if you factor in what "the gaming world" thinks you'll never be able to enjoy anything, for example apparently 2.0's biggest problem isn't reaction it's muh tranphobic or something

https://www.goonhammer.com/editorial-transphobic-language-and-the-horus-heresy/

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/06/29 20:16:08


Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.  
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block








Hi! Welcome!

People who have been invested in the game to the tune of thousands are absolutely entitled to dislike changes.

The issue i'm seeing here is the people who like it can't see that it's fundamentally a different game because of it.

Mark me.
You will realize one day that you actually like IGOUGO and concurrent phases are the greener grass next door.


please point to where is said you cant dislike it. i dislike AoS and 9th. i could list a long list of games that i have played and will tell you that the IGOUGO system is just not as good as a alternating activation game. its like one is caveman and the other is a supercar. DirtSide2 is a amazing game system that has never been updated and i love buying GHQ 6mm tanks. dont judge me for having more T14 armadas than the russians.

i stopped playing 40k at 8th. i came in at 4th and played eldar till 8th.

this game braught me back because it requires 3 books and the armies are all the same with i few small things here and there. just like a second game i love AT. so MARK ME. lol i have seen all sides of the grass and know where i like to stands.
   
Made in gb
Mysterious Techpriest







CadianSgtBob wrote:
 SirDonlad wrote:
Mark me.
You will realize one day that you actually like IGOUGO and concurrent phases are the greener grass next door.


I wouldn't bet much on it. IGOUGO is a bad mechanic and the rest of the gaming world has moved on from it for good reasons. Having played games with both types of turn structure I have never thought "I wish this game was IGOUGO".


consider: 'chess'


if we want to be philosophical about it, actual combat is IGOUGO at a strategic level

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..  
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





 Crablezworth wrote:
CadianSgtBob wrote:
 SirDonlad wrote:
Mark me.
You will realize one day that you actually like IGOUGO and concurrent phases are the greener grass next door.


I wouldn't bet much on it. IGOUGO is a bad mechanic and the rest of the gaming world has moved on from it for good reasons. Having played games with both types of turn structure I have never thought "I wish this game was IGOUGO".



"the rest of the gaming world has moved on"

It really hasn't.




It's also worth pointing out that if you factor in what "the gaming world" thinks you'll never be able to enjoy anything, for example apparently 2.0's biggest problem isn't reaction it's muh tranphobic or something



looks over at all the good games that have come out with alternating turns. theres some that are old and still kicking. dirtside is alive and well. where is all the old 1.0 players. finds all the alpha strike players that have been playing that game now for how long and it has alternating turns. love me some battletech. lol theres even the real old starfleet battles and there system of how a turn goes. do you have evidence tp back your clame or just memes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:



if we want to be philosophical about it, actual combat is IGOUGO at a strategic level


what. now your just trolling.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/29 20:34:00


 
   
Made in gb
Mysterious Techpriest







ashlevrier wrote:
Spoiler:



Hi! Welcome!

People who have been invested in the game to the tune of thousands are absolutely entitled to dislike changes.

The issue i'm seeing here is the people who like it can't see that it's fundamentally a different game because of it.

Mark me.
You will realize one day that you actually like IGOUGO and concurrent phases are the greener grass next door.


please point to where is said you cant dislike it.
Spoiler:
i dislike AoS and 9th. i could list a long list of games that i have played and will tell you that the IGOUGO system is just not as good as a alternating activation game. its like one is caveman and the other is a supercar. DirtSide2 is a amazing game system that has never been updated and i love buying GHQ 6mm tanks. dont judge me for having more T14 armadas than the russians.

i stopped playing 40k at 8th. i came in at 4th and played eldar till 8th.

this game braught me back because it requires 3 books and the armies are all the same with i few small things here and there. just like a second game i love AT. so MARK ME. lol i have seen all sides of the grass and know where i like to stands.


so, looking back over your back-and-forth with crabblesworth your critique is easily surmised as "disliking it is off topic" first stated by ClockworkZion which you agreed with
yah the thread name dont match up well with the op. openly asks for peoples thoughts and then just memes and refuses to even play. from what i have seen the game seams to be well liked.


Stop inferring that memes cannot inherently make an argument.
Because that's literally the whole point of memes

Oh my word, you don't know how telling someone to 'mark your words' is supposed to be used...
I gave you a clear prediction of something to happen in the future; you merely stated you like other games too.
i mean, fine, whatever, i'll take your word for it i suppose


Yes, real war is IGOUGO.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/29 21:00:00


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..  
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





 SirDonlad wrote:
ashlevrier wrote:
Spoiler:



Hi! Welcome!

People who have been invested in the game to the tune of thousands are absolutely entitled to dislike changes.

The issue i'm seeing here is the people who like it can't see that it's fundamentally a different game because of it.

Mark me.
You will realize one day that you actually like IGOUGO and concurrent phases are the greener grass next door.


please point to where is said you cant dislike it.
Spoiler:
i dislike AoS and 9th. i could list a long list of games that i have played and will tell you that the IGOUGO system is just not as good as a alternating activation game. its like one is caveman and the other is a supercar. DirtSide2 is a amazing game system that has never been updated and i love buying GHQ 6mm tanks. dont judge me for having more T14 armadas than the russians.

i stopped playing 40k at 8th. i came in at 4th and played eldar till 8th.

this game braught me back because it requires 3 books and the armies are all the same with i few small things here and there. just like a second game i love AT. so MARK ME. lol i have seen all sides of the grass and know where i like to stands.


so, looking back over your back-and-forth with crabblesworth your critique is easily surmised as "disliking it is off topic" first stated by ClockworkZion which you agreed with
yah the thread name dont match up well with the op. openly asks for peoples thoughts and then just memes and refuses to even play. from what i have seen the game seams to be well liked.


Stop inferring that memes cannot inherently make an argument.
Because that's literally the whole point of memes

Oh my word, you don't know how telling someone to 'mark your words' is supposed to be used...
I gave you a clear prediction of something to happen in the future; you merely stated you like other games too.
i mean, fine, whatever, i'll take your word for it i suppose


Yes, real war is IGOUGO.

lol failed to point to where i said you cant dislike a game. and your trying to twist my "yah the thread name dont match up well with the op. openly asks for peoples thoughts and then just memes and refuses to even play. from what i have seen the game seams to be well liked" lol

memes are ment to be funny also. not just a "make an argument." i think i need to show you how to troll and meme.

the title of the thread is "thoughts so far." that is opening the door for everyone. if he wanted to share his boomer views then it should be titled MY thoughts so far. can you see the difference.

also i trolled you with saying MARK ME. because your little mark my words is silly that it needed to be memed. so who is memeing and trolling who here. Sir Donald of Duck. quack!
   
Made in si
Foxy Wildborne







People really do say infer when they actually mean imply, huh. I thought it was just a random quip in a Weird Al song.

Posters on ignore list: 36

40k Potica Edition - 40k patch with reactions, suppression and all that good stuff. Feedback thread here.

Gangs of Nu Ork - Necromunda / Gorkamorka expansion supporting all faction. Feedback thread here
   
Made in gb
Mysterious Techpriest







If critique is 'off topic' then only praise can remain.
That's not a difficult concept to grasp.

If a meme is funny then it has a contrarian point which is the object of the humor.
I've seen millions of un-funny memes.

Listen up son; you lack the understanding of the English language required comprehend how wrong you are.
You are grammatically, literally, philosophically, intellectually and theoretically wrong.

You seem unable to comprehend the fact you have been 'dunked on' so hard that you have decided that the lack of responses was your righteousness: when in fact the entire user base of the site which can see this thread are sitting back and watching what nonsense you type next.
You are not salvaging your reputation, you are not taking victory laps; you are digging a metaphorical hole which is so deep now, you have mistaken the opening for the moon and continued to dig.

It is not a troll if you made yourself look like an idiot while doing so; it has now become a 'self-own'.

the title of the thread is "thoughts so far." that is opening the door for everyone. if he wanted to share his boomer views then it should be titled MY thoughts so far.

how DARE he just SHARE his opinion in a thread he created about sharing opinions? doesn't he KNOW that I LIKE IT?!? what an ASS!
I mean, just NOT liking it is, like, totally off topic..
Your opinion is not bussin' FR bruh. on god.

Is it registering exactly how you are coming across now?


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..  
   
 
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