Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 kodos wrote:
which is exactly my point, GWs marketing tells you what you "need" for gaming and anything less is not acceptable, and this also plays in the hand of some influencers that show the perfect models of instagram were a 100€ worth paintjob is "the minimum you need to play the game"
and nobody questions why you "need" special equipment to make pictures, only the most expensive paints are the minimum starting point and so on
just look at what the "average" gaming model from GW looks like on the web compared to the historical models, were the big difference is that the one is a model, the other one an army and for an army, not every single model needs to be perfect

and someone having an army done, should at least get the same respect as someone painting great single models (no matter if the individual in the army does not look good)

everything is going around the perfect model with the perfect paint job and therefore it is worth the high price, so you don't question if anything of it
and here Perry and Victrix are just lucky that they don't make anything that is a 1:1 replacement for GW, but make different models for a different market outside the "need to be perfect, price does not matter" GW bubble

I mean that's just marketing. Every firm that's making their primary income and understands how to market themselves and has the budget/time to market does the exact same thing.

Heck you want perfect paint jobs - Infinity has had top grade paintwork on their models for years, really top grade. The average box art and display model for them is top tier paintwork on tiny models. GW looks insanely tame in comparison when you look at their box art. Plus don't forget GW has pushed the "battle ready three colour" system for decades. So yes alongside all their Evy-Metal stuff and alongside influencers and all that; you've got a very healthy element of "yeah slap some paint on and improve but you don't have to go nuts".

the 3 step battle ready from GW is really something funny

I just remember the 4 step guides in the books for the models were the first 3 steps are just that, 3 simple steps and the 4 one was "adding some detail" were at least 20 more steps were in between the basic model from step 3 and the finished evy metal one shown in step 4

but this is again display VS gaming
Perry or Victrix don't show off painted models on their boxes
Perry promo models come with a very basic paint job, but are mostly shown in mass formation outside if showing off the assembly options if they are shown off painted at all

which gives a very different point of view on promoting the models

and Infintiy is a Skirmish game with low model count, hence having every model looking perfect and being expensive is something different than doing the same for mass-battle game

 Overread wrote:


Heck you want perfect paint jobs - Infinity has had top grade paintwork on their models for years, really top grade. The average box art and display model for them is top tier paintwork on tiny models. GW looks insanely tame in comparison when you look at their box art. Plus don't forget GW has pushed the "battle ready three colour" system for decades. So yes alongside all their Evy-Metal stuff and alongside influencers and all that; you've got a very healthy element of "yeah slap some paint on and improve but you don't have to go nuts".

Actually I know quite a few people who don't even paint their 40k armies (or play with half painted armies). Last summer we had a Warhammer 40000 tourney in my country - with participants from other countries, too - that allowed grey armies with no penalty - everybody got 10VPs at the start of the game, regardless if the army was painted or not.

@kodos - a lot of people like cool looking miniatures. There's no reason to hate on us or GW for offering top tier minis. After all, this hobby is called Miniatures gaming - if I didn't care about the miniatures, I would play hex and counter wargames.

I'm always impressed by the amount of stuff I get for less money from everyone else compared to GW.

Battletech, Northstar, WGA, Infinity, Warlord, the list goes on and on. It doesn't matter whether you're looking for monopose statues or modularity/customisation, nearly everyone does it better.

GW is ridiculously overpriced and their models look like cheap happy meal toys standing next to Infinity, Asoiaf, Perry etc.

 lord_blackfang wrote:


These are Victrix Vikings, they come 60 to a box and they're definitely better miniatures in any technical aspect than their nearest GW equivalent (LotR Rohan)

The victrix kits are fantastic. They're amongst the best historical plastics I've seen. I'm seriously tempted to pick up a couple to use as generic dark age or even low fantasy warriors. I'm not a 'button counter' and 'guy with sword and chainmail' is a decent stand in for a lot of settings and era's.in fairness to the lotr minis they're 20 years old but I will say you can still get a hell of a lot of rohan warriors or galadhrim for a reasonable price.

That said, on historicals themselves I've seen a lot of ranges, both plastic and metal that have either been basic, poorly sculpted or just low quality and kind of boring. One of the world was warlords 'test of honor' plastics. Loved the game but the models were amongst the worst I've ever built and painted.

'Cheap' on its own doesn't make up for things if the models are awful. Imo.

Goose LeChance wrote:
I'm always impressed by the amount of stuff I get for less money from everyone else compared to GW.

*remembers when Guardsmen went from 20/box to 10/box and the price went up too.

Goose LeChance wrote:


Battletech, Northstar, WGA, Infinity, Warlord, the list goes on and on. Nearly everyone does it better. Pfft who cares about Marvel.
.

I mean, I dunno. Infinity is still £10 a model a lot of the time - phenomenol models at the end of the day so I don't mind too much. Warlord- see above. Also look at privateer press for some crazy prices. .

Goose LeChance wrote:


GW is ridiculously overpriced and their models look like cheap happy meal toys standing next to Infinity, Asoiaf, Perry etc.

Gw is pricey as hell but there are a lot of ways to mitigate the crazy. As to 'Cheap happy meal toys' ill politely disagree with you- i think thats unfair and a bit of a cheap shot. I've had more fun painting gw minis and playing gw games in the last 5 years that I've had with any other companies offerings. Each to their own though, eh?

I'd say GW miniatures are worth their price to me, but then again I don't buy a whole lot of them. I am based in Europe, but I'd probably not have an issue paying Aussie prices given the way I engage with 40k these days.

Spending the occasional 40-60 bucks on a display piece like Abaddon or Helbrecht is fine, as I look at them all the time walking into and out of my office.
I've chosen those designs specifically for their quality, so I consider them to be the equivalent of 3D paintings if you will. A mostly visual experience, but one that can be tactile if you want it to.

I even went out of my way to spend 60 bucks on the limited sister character just because I really enjoyed her design. Same goes for the WH+ Vindicare, which was the only reason for me to maintain that subscription for an entire year. I see these as collector's items, so their price really isn't that high compared to other items in that category. My Luke Skywalker from Sideshow was considerably more expensive, for example.

That being said, I have largely moved on from collecting 40k the "intended" way, building up one army after another, spending hundreds or thousands in the process. While I can still see the appeal in that, that particular value proposition is not good enough for me anymore. A few choice characters and units on my shelf will do the trick for me and require a lot less space, time and money for me to invest.

Now, I do play Infinity in the "intended" way, and while their miniatures are not cheaper than GW's, you need a lot fewer of those and the game allows for more customizable armies. Being able to pick whatever you really enjoy from a visual standpoint and turning it into a somewhat functional force is something that GW just doesn't offer to the same extent. I also happen to find the associated game to be a lot more competent and that's all without any concessions in terms of quality or design.

Then there is this game called Oathsworn, the kickstarter of which I just pledged 375$ to after a friend kept recommending it to me. While I don't have it in hand yet, it's essentially a re-run of an existing product so I've seen some of the contents and that thing is packed with details, voiced story segments, modular hero characters and a (seemingly) competent core game to boot. That's a good chunk of money but well worth it to me, if it indeed keeps all its promises.

I think it is funny the price here GW asks.
There are box of 5 space marines that compared for the same price are more expensive than 3 of the brand new HG gundam kits.
Which are all top quality.

I don't know.. Maybe i'm out of touch, or maybe it's just a different perspective - by starting out with canvas painting & not actually playing games - but i personally think the prices are.. fine? Yeah, let's stick with that.

When i started painting on Canvas, i had to buy eye watering expensive paints, an easel, specific brushes but, most importantly, stretched canvas'. And stretched canvas is not cheap either. Depending on the size & quality, you'd pay 30-40€ per Canvas - which is in the end just some Linen tacked onto a frame with some gesso applied over it. So, 4 pieces of wood, a piece of fabric & Gesso.

I still buy Gouache paints, and a 20ml tube costs 10-15€ while GW paints are a quarter of that for 12ml. And the paint is really good, quality wise (although the paint pots are.. weird).

I can't compare GW Miniatures to other companies, because i'm still quite new to the hobby. But pricing wise, it's a fair price. It's just a tiny, highly detailed canvas that can be repainted, reshaped, cut into pieces & other pieces added to it. So, yeah. my 2 cents.

This might be another across the pond thing. My wife and I have been painting on canvas for years and usually find great deals for both paint and canvas, like a quarter the price you’re describing.


Of course, we’re more amateurs goofing off rather than serious artists, so perhaps we’re just settling for inferior product without noticing.

 KhorneGirl wrote:
I can't compare GW Miniatures to other companies, because i'm still quite new to the hobby. But pricing wise, it's a fair price. It's just a tiny, highly detailed canvas that can be repainted, reshaped, cut into pieces & other pieces added to it. So, yeah. my 2 cents.

it is a good comparison, and for painters/collectors this is true

yet staying with that example, you won't buy 40€ canvas for kids to play around, yet the models for high skilled painting, are the same for gaming, and while the might be fair priced for the first, they are not really for the later

 kodos wrote:

 KhorneGirl wrote:
I can't compare GW Miniatures to other companies, because i'm still quite new to the hobby. But pricing wise, it's a fair price. It's just a tiny, highly detailed canvas that can be repainted, reshaped, cut into pieces & other pieces added to it. So, yeah. my 2 cents.

it is a good comparison, and for painters/collectors this is true

yet the models for high skilled painting, are the same for gaming, and while the might be fair priced for the first, they are not really for the later

Huh, that is a fair point. Haven't considered that aspect.

The canvas example may seem like a reasonable justification for the artist painting a few figures to an extremely high standards. There are some really impressive and unique creations coming out of Games workshop

However it falls flat for the person purchasing the miniatures for their intended use as Wargaming miniatures. How many canvases does it take to make an army?

Further, if one is approaching miniature painting solely as an art form there are far better sculpted and proportioned figures than GW for that purpose, and many are considerably less expensive.

For the uninitiated, start with a look over the Dark Sword Miniatures website for a quick tour through some of the industries best sculptors. When you see what can be achieved at 28mm, for $10 each, justifications for GW pricing and scale-creep-for-artistic-reasons melt away. And that's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to better "canvases" for less money.

 Eilif wrote:
The canvas example may seem like a reasonable justification for the artist painting a few figures to an extremely high standards. There are some really impressive and unique creations coming out of Games workshop

However it falls flat for the person purchasing the miniatures for their intended use as Wargaming miniatures. How many canvases does it take to make an army?

Further, if one is approaching miniature painting solely as an art form there are far better sculpted and proportioned figures than GW for that purpose, and many are considerably less expensive.

For the uninitiated, start with a look over the Dark Sword Miniatures website for a quick tour through some of the industries best sculptors. When you see what can be achieved at 28mm, for $10 each, justifications for GW pricing and scale-creep-for-artistic-reasons melt away. And that's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to better "canvases" for less money.

Better is quite relative to what one wants to paint. DSM makes some fantastic stuff at good prices, but if that's not what you're looking for style wise....

ccs wrote:


Better is quite relative to what one wants to paint. DSM makes some fantastic stuff at good prices, but if that's not what you're looking for style wise....

Objectively as a sculptural object and judging sculpting skill it is possible to make judgements about "better" and I would argue that DSM certainly is that but I take your point about better being irrelevant if it's not appealing to the painter.

How specific are you being about preferred style though?

-If it's something different than DSM but with better sculpting than GW there are myriad choices.

-If it's GW-or nothing, you're pretty well tied to GW or maybe a 3d printed model copying that style.

-If by "style" you mean heroically-scaled, chunkily-proportioned and over-greebled (I won't dignify what GW does by calling it "detailing") then there are other options beyond 3d printing depending on what your parameters and subject matter interests are.

Which brings us to an important distinction.

There is GW, the miniature manufacturer. And GW, the (sort of) games rules publisher.

If one likes GW minis, there's only really one source for them.

If one is merely interested in playing GW games - and is not playing them in a GW store - then one can use any miniatures that one wants that at least roughly equates to the corresponding GW mini.

I'm primarily a GW player. So my options for minis are somewhat broader than the GW mini fan. Were it not for Mantic dwarves, I wouldn't have a dwarf army at all. If I were to start a Bretonnian army today I'd be using historical minis, probably Perry Brothers. Dark Elves....

Okay, you've got me there. I like the GW Dark Elf aesthetic. Thankfully E-bay has allowed me to indulge that particular quirk for less than ruinous cost.

 Vulcan wrote:
I like the GW Dark Elf aesthetic. Thankfully E-bay has allowed me to indulge that particular quirk for less than ruinous cost.

Most Dark/High/Wood elves are good they just gave lots of units gorilla hands

 Eilif wrote:

ccs wrote:


Better is quite relative to what one wants to paint. DSM makes some fantastic stuff at good prices, but if that's not what you're looking for style wise....

Objectively as a sculptural object and judging sculpting skill it is possible to make judgements about "better" and I would argue that DSM certainly is that but I take your point about better being irrelevant if it's not appealing to the painter.

How specific are you being about preferred style though?

-If it's something different than DSM but with better sculpting than GW there are myriad choices.

-If it's GW-or nothing, you're pretty well tied to GW or maybe a 3d printed model copying that style.

-If by "style" you mean heroically-scaled, chunkily-proportioned and over-greebled (I won't dignify what GW does by calling it "detailing") then there are other options beyond 3d printing depending on what your parameters and subject matter interests are.

You know damned well what I meant.

 Vulcan wrote:

I'm primarily a GW player. So my options for minis are somewhat broader than the GW mini fan. Were it not for Mantic dwarves, I wouldn't have a dwarf army at all. If I were to start a Bretonnian army today I'd be using historical minis, probably Perry Brothers. Dark Elves....

Okay, you've got me there. I like the GW Dark Elf aesthetic. Thankfully E-bay has allowed me to indulge that particular quirk for less than ruinous cost.

I'm curious, why aren't you playing Mantic games, if you are already buying their minis? Kings of War is highly regarded among wargamers, the ruleset is considered superior to GW, it is well supported, 3rd edition...


Anyway, I see that people draw a sharp divide between painters/gamers, and I believe this is somewhat misleading. Yes, there are folks who only care about painting the minis, and there are others who only care about playing the game, but I think the majority fall somewhere in the middle - appreciating both the quality of the mini for painting and the ability to game with it.

I looked at DSM miniatures - very unimpressive. Standard, generic fantasy of mostly average quality. Some cool looking STLs, but those are stls. I would like to see something that come close to a Lord Discordant on Hellskater. And then there is another issue. When you are buying a mini from GW, you are also buying the lore. Chief Librarian Tigurius is not just a nice miniature, he also comes with a story - he is the greatest psycher in the whole Imperium. On the other hand, those fine looking vikings posted above? They are a bunch of dudes in armor.

 emanuelb wrote:

I'm curious, why aren't you playing Mantic games, if you are already buying their minis? Kings of War is highly regarded among wargamers, the ruleset is considered superior to GW, it is well supported, 3rd edition...

I can't speak for Vulcan, -and I agree that KoW is great- but I can think of alot of situations where one might purchase KoW miniatures to play in a person's preferred ruleset (WHFB, Oathmark, OPR, etc) and setting. As Vulcan says, Mantic figures are priced such that an army that might be financially out-of-reach with GW minis might be achievable by purchasing figures from Mantic/WGA/etc. Recall also that Mantic originally was basically a way to get cheaper minis for WHFB. It was years before the rules advanced from an afterthought to an actual publication and it took the death of WHFB for it to really take off as a played ruleset.

 emanuelb wrote:


I looked at DSM miniatures - very unimpressive. Standard, generic fantasy of mostly average quality. Some cool looking STLs, but those are stls. I would like to see something that come close to a Lord Discordant on Hellskater. And then there is another issue. When you are buying a mini from GW, you are also buying the lore. Chief Librarian Tigurius is not just a nice miniature, he also comes with a story - he is the greatest psycher in the whole Imperium.

I disagree about DSM, but that's ok, I can see where those preferring a GW aesthetic would not find it to their liking. I do agree that GW minis bring built-in stories with them and often quite good ones in my opinion. My son and I use GW minis (usually old and used...) and get our fluff from our rather extensive libarary of previous edition codices, even as we're playing using Grimdark Future rules.

 emanuelb wrote:

On the other hand, those fine looking vikings posted above? They are a bunch of dudes in armor.

I think you may have missed a trick here. The lore behind vikings is deep, both the historical facts and characters, and their many appearances in literature (historical and fantasy) and media of all kinds. Just because the manufacturer of the mini doesn't provide the story, don't think that there aren't alot of other places to find that inspirational narrative. Discussions around this sort of minis-first or narrative-first gaming often happen frequently on non-GW-centric forums.

My personal philosophy has always been to find the miniatures, rules and story/fluff/narrative from whatever sources suits you best and mix to taste. Sometimes (rarely in my case) it means eating from one company's plate, sometimes it's more of a tapas situation.

Why are you narrowing your scope to a game?

building miniatures and painting is the hobby. A game is just a vehicle for the social interaction side of the hobby. it also sometimes constrains your creative aspect, because your models "must" fit a usable game profile.

Once you lift yourself from the confines of a game system, i've found the creative side of the hobby gets much more enjoyable.

And with discount retailers like myself offering boxed sets and packs of sprues for under $50 US, the entry point into this hobby is much less than the big names would have you believe.

Take a look at Wargames Atlantic. They just released 19 kits on my mini factory for (if you get in at the early bird level) $10.

You could take those files, and pick a print shop like me (I'm backlogged, so more of an example) or someone like warchest creations on etsy, and ask for a custom quote for an armies worth of figures.

And dollars to donuts, you would be spending less than you would if buying into a game system from GW or otherwise.

Entry point into the hobby is not the issue.

the hobby being pigeon-holed into "I play game system X" and only focusing on that limited window, is an issue.

 McDougall Designs wrote:
building miniatures and painting is the hobby.

For you maybe. For other people the game is the hobby, and building and painting miniatures is just a prerequisite for playing the game.

And with discount retailers like myself

NVM, I see, this is just self-promotion for your store.

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:

 McDougall Designs wrote:
building miniatures and painting is the hobby.

For you maybe. For other people the game is the hobby, and building and painting miniatures is just a prerequisite for playing the game.

And with discount retailers like myself

NVM, I see, this is just self-promotion for your store.

No, it was not. I was attempting to use my experience as a retailer as an example to reinforce my point.

Obviously that did not land well.

I admit, some hobbyists may only think in terms of the game = the hobby.

I continue to espouse that is a narrow and shortsighted view that sadly downplays the wonderful things you can create in the artistic side.

 McDougall Designs wrote:

I admit, some hobbyists may only think in terms of the game = the hobby.

I continue to espouse that is a narrow and shortsighted view that sadly downplays the wonderful things you can create in the artistic side.

And some people would say that your narrow and shortsighted view downplays the wonderful things you can do in the gaming side. Please stop assuming your personal preferences are some kind of universal truth and everyone who disagrees with you is ignorant or a victim of misinformation.

Sounds like you two have an honest disagreement not sure why we're getting negative or aggressive about it.

More to the point of this thread, can it be generalized that GW is more worth it to those who emphasize the gaming or hobby side of the hobby?

GW offers allot to the hobbyist for sure, but so do allot of other games and companies. As we've discussed earlier on this topic, even with arguably subpar rules, GW offers an unparalleled volume of opportunities for casual and competitive gaming.

 Eilif wrote:
Sounds like you two have an honest disagreement not sure why we're getting negative or aggressive about it.

Because McDougall Designs is being a condescending ass and insisting that his way of enjoying the hobby is the objectively superior one and anyone who has priorities he disagrees with is, at best, a misinformed victim who needs to be brought to enlightenment about the Real Way To Do The Hobby. That kind of arrogance and gatekeeping should not be tolerated.

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:

 Eilif wrote:
Sounds like you two have an honest disagreement not sure why we're getting negative or aggressive about it.

Because McDougall Designs is being a condescending ass and insisting that his way of enjoying the hobby is the objectively superior one and anyone who has priorities he disagrees with is, at best, a misinformed victim who needs to be brought to enlightenment about the Real Way To Do The Hobby. That kind of arrogance and gatekeeping should not be tolerated.

Not going to say he is completely blameless, but you seem awfully steamed up by someone having a conflicting opinion. Maybe turn the temperature down a bit and know that there will be people here who strongly disagree with each other but we can choose not to resort to name calling even if we find their perspective disagreeable.


This is an odd day. Second time I've seen folks move from disagreement to coarseness unexpectedly.

Goose LeChance wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:
I like the GW Dark Elf aesthetic. Thankfully E-bay has allowed me to indulge that particular quirk for less than ruinous cost.

Most Dark/High/Wood elves are good they just gave lots of units gorilla hands

True, although the 6E stuff was FAR worse for it than the 7/8E models.

mrFickle wrote:I what’s thought that GW were quite expensive, certainly the cost of a 2k point army and the codex seems painful when you first enter the hobby, I think.

It I’ve been looking at expanding my horizons and compared to some other minis and games I’ve seen GW start to look fairly priced, especially when you look at the combat patrol boxes and other box sets that deliver real value.

Marvel crisis protocol seems to be 30-40 pounds for one mini, and some fallout minis I’ve seen are the same price for a 5 model unit.

I don’t think there’s another game out there that can beat 40K for scale but it looks like GW can’t be beaten in price either. Or am I looking at the wrong things? I suppose marvel and fallout are big brands that are used to charging a lot for their paraphernalia.

Eilif wrote:Sounds like you two have an honest disagreement not sure why we're getting negative or aggressive about it.

More to the point of this thread, can it be generalized that GW is more worth it to those who emphasize the gaming or hobby side of the hobby?

GW offers allot to the hobbyist for sure, but so do allot of other games and companies. As we've discussed earlier on this topic, even with arguably subpar rules, GW offers an unparalleled volume of opportunities for casual and competitive gaming.

I believe that is exactly what happened. I believe gaming has always simply been the social and limiting side of the equation, and the artistic side should be held higher. especially when talking about "cost of entry". That's all i was saying. I was as taken aback as you to hear I was being abrasive.

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:

 Eilif wrote:
Sounds like you two have an honest disagreement not sure why we're getting negative or aggressive about it.

Because McDougall Designs is being a condescending ass and insisting that his way of enjoying the hobby is the objectively superior one and anyone who has priorities he disagrees with is, at best, a misinformed victim who needs to be brought to enlightenment about the Real Way To Do The Hobby. That kind of arrogance and gatekeeping should not be tolerated.

See above. If I impugned you in some way I apologize. I thought the thread was open for opinions to be shared. If it wasn't, perhaps i misread the first post.

 emanuelb wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

I'm primarily a GW player. So my options for minis are somewhat broader than the GW mini fan. Were it not for Mantic dwarves, I wouldn't have a dwarf army at all. If I were to start a Bretonnian army today I'd be using historical minis, probably Perry Brothers. Dark Elves....

Okay, you've got me there. I like the GW Dark Elf aesthetic. Thankfully E-bay has allowed me to indulge that particular quirk for less than ruinous cost.

I'm curious, why aren't you playing Mantic games, if you are already buying their minis? Kings of War is highly regarded among wargamers, the ruleset is considered superior to GW, it is well supported, 3rd edition...

At the moment I'm not playing anything, because there is no gaming community within an hour's drive or more.

But back in St. Louis, I played WFB because that's what everyone else was playing, not Mantic. If that's changed, I may reconsider when I return. But to be frank, the Mantic rules I've seen seem... overly-simple. Better balanced, I'll grant you, but it looked like it would be boring as heck in actual play.

The real challenge was the time limit on a turn. But that just makes things difficult, which is not the same thing as having a complex game.

 McDougall Designs wrote:

See above. If I impugned you in some way I apologize. I thought the thread was open for opinions to be shared. If it wasn't, perhaps i misread the first post.

This is what you said:

"I admit, some hobbyists may only think in terms of the game = the hobby.

I continue to espouse that is a narrow and shortsighted view that sadly downplays the wonderful things you can create in the artistic side. "

Saying "I prefer to focus on the modeling and painting side of the hobby" is fine, that's your preference.

Saying "it's narrow and short-sighted to focus on the game" is not fine, that's telling other people that they're having fun the wrong way.

See the difference?