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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Tsagualsa wrote:
Boosykes wrote:
So the more this goes on the more I think the prophecy from the first book is from the perspective of luther.

Spoiler: vashtorr failes to get the last piece but he thinks he know how to get the piece to come to him.

luther and cypher know the rock better than anyone so one of them could stand a chance of getting on and off the rock again with thier lives and the key. And of the two luther is know for being a Prophet


Vashtorr is apparently using his triple-agents to lure the Dark Angels to the Somnium system, hoping that they bring the Key fragment with them. This makes me guess that the fragment is some piece of wargear they'd reasonably take with them, probably one of their special swords or something. Isn't there a sword made from a prehistoric meteor or something in the DA armoury?

Also, the Somnium system is where 'an army of the Fallen of hitherto unknown size' is said to be rallying in the DA codex, so the plot thickens.


This sounds really cool to be honest. Thanks for this tidbit. A big throw down between marbass and the fallen vs dark angels but this time luther save the lion maybe at the cost of his life. Sounds interesting.
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Vashtorr was on general release yesterday, but haven’t had the chance or readies to nab it just yet. That’s a job for Thursday evening.

And next Saturday, Farsight is up for pre-order.

   
Made in de
Servoarm Flailing Magos




Germany

From the Lion reveal article:

On the tabletop, the Lion is the consummate swordsman, balancing raw power and preternatural skill, scything through humanity’s foes like wheat. Those lucky few who live long enough to return a blow are met with a bone-crunching wave of force, as the fury of the Emperor Himself resounds from his shield.


Calling it now: in the fight between the Lion and Angron, Angron will try to Khorne-Blast the Lion like he did with that MacGuffin in his own book, but the Shield of the Emperor will throw the attack back at him and that is what banishes him for good - for now.
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Got Vashtorr in hand, getting my way through it.

So far, it’s really solid! As with the previous outings it’s written largely from a non-Imperium POV, which remains refreshing. Particularly its description of the advantages of being Vashtorr whilst in the warp, such as not being tied to linear time.

Proper info dump probably Saturday.

   
Made in mk
Spawn of Chaos




Warhammer 40K Universe

I hope the Lion doesn't win against Angron 1v1. I want him to lose. It doesn't make sense for him to win against Angron 1 on 1 even though Angron can't think for himself. It's better if he wins the grand battle but loses 1 on 1 against Angron.
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Trouble there is?

One doesn’t simply lose against Angron. You get all ded and chop and squelched and mooshed and turned into hideous splutchy pancakes by Angron.

Is it lazy writing when Lion inevitably wins? Yeah. Kind of.

But Angron isn’t just completely pants on head hatstand wibble-dibble Dennis Norden insane…..but also an arena fighter.

Lion is a very different foe. Lion chinned Russ, arguably Angron’s superior in terms of mass combat. So despite Angron’s many daemonic advantages, I’m not expecting a Deus Ex reason as to why Lion comes out on top.

   
Made in de
Servoarm Flailing Magos




Germany

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So despite Angron’s many daemonic advantages, I’m not expecting a Deus Ex reason as to why Lion comes out on top.


The last couple of Heresy books also really hammered it in that becoming a Demon Prince is not a straight upgrade for a Primarch, but a best a sidegrade, and in many aspects actually lessens them as beings and powers, because instead of the fined-tuned whatever it is that the Emperor made them they're now a bog-standard Slave to Darkness and suffer at least as many vulnerabilities and limitations as they gain raw power.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Angron will lose for the simple reason that he can be banished and come back, whereas if Lion loses he's dead. That lack of suspense in these kind of match ups is why I am not that keen about the return of another Primarch. Don't want 40K to turn into just Primarch vs. Primarch inconclusive superhero/supervillain drama. Also it removes suspense if any conflict involves a Primarch on one side but a non-Primarch on the other, and the Primarch is guaranteed a win.

I would find it more refreshing if somehow a Primarch were actually defeated by a non-Primarch, and how they would have to cope with that blow to their self-esteem afterwards or the loss of faith of their followers.
   
Made in de
Servoarm Flailing Magos




Germany

Iracundus wrote:


I would find it more refreshing if somehow a Primarch were actually defeated by a non-Primarch, and how they would have to cope with that blow to their self-esteem afterwards or the loss of faith of their followers.


That sounds like a plot that's a natural fit for Fulgrim, with the only downside being that it kinda happened already with Rylanor and all that... for comedy potential have him beaten by Cato Sicarius.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Tsagualsa wrote:
Iracundus wrote:


I would find it more refreshing if somehow a Primarch were actually defeated by a non-Primarch, and how they would have to cope with that blow to their self-esteem afterwards or the loss of faith of their followers.


That sounds like a plot that's a natural fit for Fulgrim, with the only downside being that it kinda happened already with Rylanor and all that... for comedy potential have him beaten by Cato Sicarius.


I don't necessarily mean being beaten in a duel, though that could work as well. It could also mean being outmaneuvered and losing strategically. The Primarch might find that he has won a battle but lost the wider war for example.
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Iracundus wrote:
Angron will lose for the simple reason that he can be banished and come back, whereas if Lion loses he's dead. That lack of suspense in these kind of match ups is why I am not that keen about the return of another Primarch. Don't want 40K to turn into just Primarch vs. Primarch inconclusive superhero/supervillain drama. Also it removes suspense if any conflict involves a Primarch on one side but a non-Primarch on the other, and the Primarch is guaranteed a win.

I would find it more refreshing if somehow a Primarch were actually defeated by a non-Primarch, and how they would have to cope with that blow to their self-esteem afterwards or the loss of faith of their followers.


I’ll have to disagree.

As stupidly hard to kill as Lion and Roboute are? They know from the deaths of Ferrus and Sanguinius that they are in fact mortal and vulnerable.

The Daemon Prince Primarchs now know that whilst banishment sucks, it’s not the end. That has to affect your strategy. If you know you’re fundamentally immortal, you may take risks a mortal can’t. And in doing so, over expose yourself to risk.

This next bit is genuinely open to question as I’m not aware if it’s been addressed during the HH Novels……but.

Has Angron ever scrapped with an actual equal? Ever since he was found and had The Butcher’s Nails installed, he’s never fought someone of at least broadly similar stature. Certainly none since he became part Daemon.

I’m envisaging a potential (but not exact) Hulk Vs Thanos, where the angry brawler driven by rage and having never really tried fighting a vague equal gets their stools pushed in by a calm minded strategic fighter. Think a grapple and Kung fu master.

   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Angron has fought Russ during the Crusade during the Night of the Wolf. Russ and Angron fought alongside their Legions and Angron bested his brother in single combat but the VIth were able to surround and corral the XIIth into small pockets, able to be wiped out at a word from Russ. The point was to prove that Angron's blind rage was going to get him killed, Russ just didn't bank on the fact that it was Angrons intent to die.
Angron also fought Guilliman during the Shadow Crusade on Nuceria and they beat each other bloody until Lorgar's ritual forced Angron's ascension to Daemonhood.

After becoming a Daemon, Angron fought Perturabo and was smacked about enough to become lucid for a bit.
He then fought Sanguinius at the Siege of Terra and it is an exceptional part of End of Eternity.
   
Made in de
Servoarm Flailing Magos




Germany

 Gert wrote:
Angron has fought Russ during the Crusade during the Night of the Wolf. Russ and Angron fought alongside their Legions and Angron bested his brother in single combat but the VIth were able to surround and corral the XIIth into small pockets, able to be wiped out at a word from Russ. The point was to prove that Angron's blind rage was going to get him killed, Russ just didn't bank on the fact that it was Angrons intent to die.
Angron also fought Guilliman during the Shadow Crusade on Nuceria and they beat each other bloody until Lorgar's ritual forced Angron's ascension to Daemonhood.

After becoming a Daemon, Angron fought Perturabo and was smacked about enough to become lucid for a bit.
He then fought Sanguinius at the Siege of Terra and it is an exceptional part of End of Eternity.


If anything, Demon-Angron in the HH books suffers a bit of Worf syndrome everytime he meets an equal - it usually close fights, but the other party beats him to show how determined, tactically superior or whatever they are in the end.
   
Made in mk
Spawn of Chaos




Warhammer 40K Universe

Tsagualsa wrote:


The last couple of Heresy books also really hammered it in that becoming a Demon Prince is not a straight upgrade for a Primarch, but a best a sidegrade, and in many aspects actually lessens them as beings and powers, because instead of the fined-tuned whatever it is that the Emperor made them they're now a bog-standard Slave to Darkness and suffer at least as many vulnerabilities and limitations as they gain raw power.

Which is honestly bs. It first started off with retconing CSM not being more powerful than loyalist SM and now becoming a Daemon Prince doesn't give you a power up? No wonder why people keep ranting that Chaos are just Saturday morning cartoon villains. My POV is that the writers have taken Chaos too literal, you join Chaos you become Chaotic, unable to think coherently. While Hell in other franchises is badass, 40K villains are "I'll be back Spiderman". While 40K might have been a mess in it's starting point (Rouge Trader era) there were far more interesting stories and concepts that later got retconed. This change they've made to Chaos has also made them no longer the biggest threat in the galaxy since they're Lovecraftian, instead the Tyranids have taken that place.
   
Made in de
Servoarm Flailing Magos




Germany

 F.E.A.R. wrote:
Tsagualsa wrote:


The last couple of Heresy books also really hammered it in that becoming a Demon Prince is not a straight upgrade for a Primarch, but a best a sidegrade, and in many aspects actually lessens them as beings and powers, because instead of the fined-tuned whatever it is that the Emperor made them they're now a bog-standard Slave to Darkness and suffer at least as many vulnerabilities and limitations as they gain raw power.

Which is honestly bs. It first started off with retconing CSM not being more powerful than loyalist SM and now becoming a Daemon Prince doesn't give you a power up? No wonder why people keep ranting that Chaos are just Saturday morning cartoon villains. My POV is that the writers have taken Chaos too literal, you join Chaos you become Chaotic, unable to think coherently. While Hell in other franchises is badass, 40K villains are "I'll be back Spiderman". While 40K might have been a mess in it's starting point (Rouge Trader era) there were far more interesting stories and concepts that later got retconed. This change they've made to Chaos has also made them no longer the biggest threat in the galaxy since they're Lovecraftian, instead the Tyranids have taken that place.


It's more like once you go full Demon, you just become another pawn in the great game, and that basically amounts to you never achieving anything lasting ever again, because not even the gods can or really want to win it, and everytime you do something of note and make some progress, either one of the other gods or their pawns come at you to punish you for it. It's an eternal bucket of crabs where you can't have nice things anymore. The great delusion of Slaves to Darkness™ lies in that they assume that they, themselves, are somehow above it all, or could be the ones to actually use Chaos for their own end without getting tainted or dragged down into the bucket, but precisely that hybris is the first step on the road to your downfall. It was the folly of Horus, it was the folly of Magnus, it was the folly of Perturabo and it is the folly of Abaddon, Ahriman and all the other leader figures on the chaotic side.
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






That is the curse of Chaos.

You’re never given power. You’re only loaned it. And no loan ever comes cheap. Ever.

Yes you get a temporary and dare we say intoxicating freedom from Imperial oppression. But you’re only trading masters.

This is best seen in Angron, particularly his star turn in AoO Angron.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Interim takeaway from AoO Vashtorr?

55 minutes and 55 seconds.

Not gonna say more on where that’s mentioned because spoilers.

But 5 is a number not currently associated with the Chaos Gods, suggesting Vashtorr might actually ascend!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/23 22:33:11


   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







So that time wasn't just how long it took you to read the background material, Doc?

2021-4 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My Pile of Potential - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Nah, been plodding along 😂😂

   
Made in us
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





Vashtorr needs ways better stats before he can consider himself a god.

On the topic of the power of daemon princes, there is actually a story where a daemon prince (I think a Khorne one) failed a mission and was reduced to a Chaos Spawn as a punishment. A parallel example, though where the character is not a daemon, is the character of Eternus in Age of Sigmar, who was given great power by Be'lakor and who is constantly working to please his master so that he is not stripped of his power.
   
Made in de
Servoarm Flailing Magos




Germany

Arbitrator Ian has a lore video for AoO 4: Farsight

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbiKUpEsdJ0

A summary:

Spoiler:
- Starts out with T'au vs. Orks; T'au are winning, but at heavy losses
- Farsight comes under attack from a Weirdboy and has terrifying visions of himself as a champion of Khorne as a consequence, which reminded him of Arthas Moloch
- After beating the Orks back, they uncover plans for a ork superweapon, the 'Tellyfragger', that's been moved back to Nazdregs fallback world, Dreg-Ork
- Farsight sallied forth to stop the Orks from completing that
- He and the Eight battle farsight atop his Technodrome-like tellyporting Battlestation Gitcrusha
- They succeeded and detonated the Battlestations warp core
- All this is observed by a Deathwatch team that is itself infiltrated by Alpha Legion agents of Vasthorr
- Conveniently, Dreg-Ork is in the same system as Arthas Moloch
- All of this turns out to be a convoluted plot to get at the key fragment on Arthas Moloch - a three-way ground war between the T'au, the Orks and the newly arrived balefleet of Ugalax the Souleater soon breaks out
- Farsight sends missive to the Ethereals and offers his surrender if they send reinforcements; over the protracted fighting some of his Eight are slain as they progressively get encircled by Chaos and fight a loosing guerilla war
- A messenger from the T'au empire appears and tells Farsight that he can go feth himself
- Farsight's desperate plan is to draw both Orks and Chaos forces to the old temple and then release the ancient demons trapped there to destroy the lot of them
- Just as his forces prepare for the final retreat to their evacuation zone and the enemy forces close in, they discover a wrecked, millenia-old craft bearing the markings of the Dark Angels
- The craft is covered in a dark and pulsating crystal mass
- As the T'au pathfinders report this, the Alpha Legion strike: that craft or the crystalline mass is the key fragment they were looking for
- The overpower the loyal Deathwatch, swoop in and nick the crystals, and make straight for the warp and Vashtorr
- Farsight kills enough Orks and Chaos forces to summon the Molokite demons of Khorne
- He himself is temporarily overcome by bloodlust and rage, but manages to meditate out of it by remembering that he is an Anime superhero and aided by his MacGuffin talisman
- The Orks again turn the tide of the battle by spiritbombing the Demons, the Chaos forces and the temple to rubble with Waaagh energy channeled by the surviving weirdboys while the T'au evacuate
- After all this the formerly dead world of Arthas Moloch now shows 'anomalous lifesigns'

This concludes this episode of Warhammerball Z



That seems convoluted, and them literally stumbling about the central plot device is a bit lame.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/03/25 19:15:13


 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Thoughts on Vashtorr.

As said, happy to see Chaos POV story telling. I’m particularly amused Be’lakor only interfered to be a phallus, and wind Vashtorr up.

Crucially, it’s now possible for Vashtorr’s plan to fail. Whatever it is on The Rock is a vital piece of this key he’s trying to make. He does have backup plans of course, and is putting them into gear. No doubt that will be covered off in The Lion.

Will be picking up Farsight next Saturday, and reading it that day.

   
Made in be
Regular Dakkanaut





I'm seeing speculation going the rounds now implying that the artefacts are pieces of Caliban. If the entirety of the Arks of Omen is just a plot device to bring the Lion back, I'm going to be very dissapointed.

Games Workshop sometimes cannot make the setting not be about the Space marines to save their lives. It is like Blizzard not being able to make a bad guy who isn't the servant of an even badder guy.

That final bit mentioning life returning on Arthas Moloch is kind of funny and I know it is intentional. It is one first glance a rather positive spin on events, yet what this probably means is that Arthas Moloch is now infested with Ork spores.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/25 19:49:23


 
   
Made in de
Servoarm Flailing Magos




Germany

 Segersgia wrote:
I'm seeing speculation going the rounds now implying that the artefacts are pieces of Caliban. If the entirety of the Arks of Omen is just a plot device to bring the Lion back, I'm going to be very dissapointed.

Games Workshop sometimes cannot make the setting not be about the Space marines to save their lives. It is like Blizzard not being able to make a bad guy who isn't the servant of an even badder guy.

That final bit mentioning life returning on Arthas Moloch is kind of funny and I know it is intentional. It is one first glance a rather positive spin on events, yet what this probably means is that Arthas Moloch is now infested with Ork spores.


The thing about life is doubtful, since Farsight himself seems to find it anomalous, and goes investigating it, and he should be intimately familiar with the ork lifecycle after decades of mainly battling them on their own planets.

As for the contrivances around the key: it might have something to do with that trinity of artifacts that blew up Caliban in the first place, they are very weird and presumably also very powerful.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Segersgia wrote:
I'm seeing speculation going the rounds now implying that the artefacts are pieces of Caliban. If the entirety of the Arks of Omen is just a plot device to bring the Lion back, I'm going to be very dissapointed.

Games Workshop sometimes cannot make the setting not be about the Space marines to save their lives. It is like Blizzard not being able to make a bad guy who isn't the servant of an even badder guy.

That final bit mentioning life returning on Arthas Moloch is kind of funny and I know it is intentional. It is one first glance a rather positive spin on events, yet what this probably means is that Arthas Moloch is now infested with Ork spores.


Considering the first book Dante came across a destroyed fleet/space hulk that seemed to have been destroyed by someone with a big sword, Book 3 has Vahtorr talking about "The Dreamer" (who in the first book was dreaming about the events of Arks of Omen) being that mysterious figure who's destroying his space hulks and has a reason more than anyone to stop him, a significant part of the series has focused on the Dark Angels with it building up to a confrontation involving them in the last book as well, it seems the key fragments are to do with the Dark Angels and this whole thing has been centered around collecting those fragments...

Yeah, it looks like pretty much whole point of this has been to bring back the Lion.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2023/03/25 22:17:26


 
   
Made in de
Servoarm Flailing Magos




Germany

Apparently the epilogue of the Lion book heavily, heavily hints at an Inquisition codex Excellent news.
   
Made in mk
Spawn of Chaos




Warhammer 40K Universe

Tsagualsa wrote:
Apparently the epilogue of the Lion book heavily, heavily hints at an Inquisition codex Excellent news.

So that means we're going to get the Lion vs the Inquisition and possibly the Ecclesiarchy?
   
Made in de
Servoarm Flailing Magos




Germany

 F.E.A.R. wrote:
Tsagualsa wrote:
Apparently the epilogue of the Lion book heavily, heavily hints at an Inquisition codex Excellent news.

So that means we're going to get the Lion vs the Inquisition and possibly the Ecclesiarchy?


Not necessarily against them, but apparently the series of warp-related shenanigans that went down in the AoO saga were observed by Lord-Inquisitor Coteaz, who in said epilogue orders his inquisitorial assets all over the Imperium to 'awaken' and 'step out of the shadows' to engage these warp-spawned threats. All it needs is some omnious theme music and a fade to black
   
Made in us
Squishy Oil Squig






 F.E.A.R. wrote:
Tsagualsa wrote:


The last couple of Heresy books also really hammered it in that becoming a Demon Prince is not a straight upgrade for a Primarch, but a best a sidegrade, and in many aspects actually lessens them as beings and powers, because instead of the fined-tuned whatever it is that the Emperor made them they're now a bog-standard Slave to Darkness and suffer at least as many vulnerabilities and limitations as they gain raw power.

Which is honestly bs. It first started off with retconing CSM not being more powerful than loyalist SM and now becoming a Daemon Prince doesn't give you a power up? No wonder why people keep ranting that Chaos are just Saturday morning cartoon villains. My POV is that the writers have taken Chaos too literal, you join Chaos you become Chaotic, unable to think coherently. While Hell in other franchises is badass, 40K villains are "I'll be back Spiderman". While 40K might have been a mess in it's starting point (Rouge Trader era) there were far more interesting stories and concepts that later got retconed. This change they've made to Chaos has also made them no longer the biggest threat in the galaxy since they're Lovecraftian, instead the Tyranids have taken that place.


TBF Chaos wasn't really very Lovecraftian in the beginning, it was Moorcockian, with its themes of eternal struggle, cosmic conflict, and multiverse-spanning battles. The early depictions of Chaos were more focused on the concept of chaos as a force of change and disruption, rather than the eldritch horror and cosmic insignificance that Lovecraftian horror embodies.

Genestealer cults were always more reminiscent of Call of Cthulu to me, with their infiltration and manipulation of societies. Chaos is about breaking free from the constraints of order and embracing unpredictability and change. It is a rejection of traditional norms and rules, and an embrace of individuality and self-determination. The allure of Chaos lies in its promise of freedom from the shackles of conformity, and the potential for unfettered power and transformation. The descent into anarchy and nihilism that usually follows, is the real horror, a much more human horror.

I do agree that Chaos has often been reduced to cartoon villains in modern fluff though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/04/14 21:10:34


...you make expensive ugliness...how do you do it?...let me guess....
 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Just picked up Farsight. Jammy enough my local FLGS (Chaos Cards) had one on the shelf.

Gonna read that today, and be back tomorrow for The Lion.

   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Arks of Omen reading paused, as I’m ploughing through The Lion, Son of the Forest first.

About quarter of the way through, and it’s really rather good!

   
 
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