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Should The God-Marked Legions Have Been Separated Out From The CSM Dex?
Yes-What GW Did For TSons, DG, WE, And Most Likely EC Soon Was The Right Choice
No-They Should All Be Covered Under One Big CSM Codex
Sorta-Supplements On A Base Codex Would Work
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Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Jidmah wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Their execution does not make them a bad idea.

"They got it wrong so let's give up!" is also a massively defeatist attitude.


"They got it wrong the last six times, maybe GW will get it right the seventh time!" might not be an objective stance to take either.


the irony being that GW got it's rulessystem wrong now 9 times aswell overall.

10th isn't out yet.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/05/31 15:42:44


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Charax wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
The 3.5 codex put no restrictions on Death Guard bikes - despite putting restrictions on Rhinos. They couldn't take Raptors; although that was because they could only take the Mark of Chaos Undivided.
Bikes couldn't take the Mark of Nurgle.

They could take the Mark; they just couldn't benefit from Daemonic Resilience.


How about we stop just saying things at each other and just consult the actual book?


Hmm. Even after 20 years the abominable layout of the 3.5 codex is still catching me out!
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 H.B.M.C. wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
Eightbound could've just been an alternative Possessed model since it's literally what they are.
My preferred method of Chaos would be to do it the way the 3.5 'Dex did it: Rules are based on Chaos Marks. So a Mark of Khorne gives Y and Z USRs for +X Points per model, and you could turn Possessed into Eightbound that way. That way Eightbound still exist, but they're using existing rules rather than bespoke rules to achieve the same result.

Having said that, my thoughts on the current Legion books are framed from the perspective that GW aren't ever going to be that clever again, and will always separate things out, in which case, as I said right from the beginning: I'd rather have them than not have them. I know what it's like to live in a world where they don't exist. It's not fun.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Also the Guard codex did Rough Riders perfectly because they're not locked to a particular army whereas Marine calvary only exists if you're Space Wolves or a successor.
Perfectly? They're world-locked to Attlia. It's annoying. But that bit of nonsense aside (the current Guard Codex is a travesty with all its worlds-as-Aspect Warrior nonsense), what's wrong with the Woofs having access to Thunder Wolf Cavalry but no one else? It's a uniquely Space Wolf thing, so... what's the problem here?

Y'all need to stop looking at CSM 3.5 like it was some holy grail. It was a hot mess of arbitrary restrictions, options that didn't make sense, and even more unbalanced than the Legion supplement that came out less than a year before 7th ended.
And you'd still have 8 Bound, you just use the Possessed rules because that's what they are. Simple as.

You can also sat "noooooo Rough Riders are only on World XYZ" but they're not army locked, are they? Maybe because, big brain time, World XYZ isn't the only guard army that uses calvary.

So yes, Aspect Guard is silly, and you can certainly blame the way GW makes all kits their own unit (oh wait you defended it for 8 Bound), but I'd NEVER defend only a Catachan army getting 2 Flamers in their Infantry squad and nobody else because that restriction is dumb.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







No Guard army makes use of calvary, but some do make use of cavalry.

2021-4 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My Pile of Potential - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
Made in de
Servoarm Flailing Magos




Germany

 Dysartes wrote:
No Guard army makes use of calvary, but some do make use of cavalry.


Have you looked at some of the bases? That's calvaries alright.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




It should have been in separate codexes, but they each need a wider variety of units.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Y'all need to stop looking at CSM 3.5 like it was some holy grail.
No, I don't think we have to do that at all.

The 3.5 Chaos Codex was the single best Codex that Chaos have ever received. It was the most flexible, covered all the Legions, allowed for a massive variety of different army types, character customisation, unit customisation and allowed for everything from daemon-infused Veterans of the Long War to renegade Chapters who have never even heard of a Daemon. Moreover, it included Daemons, meaning you could create mixed forces that were full of fun, flavour and even power. The only thing it was really missing was the Lost & The Damned aspect, but the Eye of Terror Codex brought that into the game, basically making it 99% complete (just didn't do much with Renegade Chapters, TBF).

No, it wasn't balanced, but "It wasn't balanced!" is hardly much of a criticism given everything else that was in 40k at the time (and since). No, it wasn't perfect - no Codex is. I'm not sure what I'd describe as arbitrary about the restrictions, given how few there were. It was utterly fantastic, and what followed it... the 4th Ed book... might be the single greatest example of how to completely feth over an army: Stripping out every option, all the Legions, daemonic abilities, Veteran skills, army flexibility and construction options... and all the fething Daemons!

So when I say I'd rather have it than not have it, I'm talking about a time when Chaos players went from having it to not having it. Those were bad times, and the more people like you who pine for a return to such drudgery, the more indignant I'll become on the topic.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
You can also sat "noooooo Rough Riders are only on World XYZ" but they're not army locked, are they? Maybe because, big brain time, World XYZ isn't the only guard army that uses calvary.
My point was that they didn't introduced Rough Riders, they introduced Atillan Rough Riders, which was a damned shame and (yet another patented GW) missed opportunity. I lament the current Guard Codex because of the 'Aspect Warrior' nature.

And of course I know that other Guard armies use cavalry. How could you possible think that I or anyone wouldn't already know that? Hell, I wrote all the cavalry rules/mount options for the Only War RPG, FFS.

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2023/06/01 01:33:51


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Not Online!!! wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Their execution does not make them a bad idea.

"They got it wrong so let's give up!" is also a massively defeatist attitude.


"They got it wrong the last six times, maybe GW will get it right the seventh time!" might not be an objective stance to take either.


the irony being that GW got it's rulessystem wrong now 9 times aswell overall.

10th isn't out yet.


The consensus among the old-timers seems to be that CSM 3.5 was the all-time peak of chaos. So GW at least got in wrong in 4th, 5th, 6th,7th, 8th and 9th.

It's amazing how people hate GW for running into the same damn wall over and over again for more than 20 years, but completely flip their gak when someone suggests taking a path that doesn't lead to the very same wall again.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/01 06:58:39


7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in gb
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





3.5 was great, it just had a few overpowered combos relative to other books at the time that people are still maligning it for decades later. I mean, nobody would bat an eyelid if IWs got 4 HS slots in 6th or 7th,but because it happened in 3rd the sky is falling!

The problem is GW radically overcompensated and made 4th the blandest codex you could possibly imagine, and they've been on a "can't repeat 3.5, gotta keep Chaos weak" kick ever since, whereas actually 3.5 was just slightly ahead of its time and a lot of the concepts would have worked brilliantly in later editions

Is it perfect? No, but it's the best ruleset (in terms of flexibility and lore representation) Chaos have had before or since, which is why people keep referring back to it.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Charax absolutely nailed it.
 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Jidmah wrote:


The consensus among the old-timers seems to be that CSM 3.5 was the all-time peak of chaos. So GW at least got in wrong in 4th, 5th, 6th,7th, 8th and 9th.

It's amazing how people hate GW for running into the same damn wall over and over again for more than 20 years, but completely flip their gak when someone suggests taking a path that doesn't lead to the very same wall again.


Actually 7th had a supplement that was another highpoint for CSM.

And the actual deviation happened in 4th with the utter removal of unit specific upgradeability tied to the faction of the army. Which got reimplemented in said supplement. 8th then just added faction sub rules that ... didn't work out very well especially with detachment freedom, 9th did the same and... that didn't work out very well either just with mono focus on detachments. Now we are at a Faction + detachment system, which, surprise surprise, doesn't work out well because not every CSM legion / renegade is a closet word bearer in their identity and following out of that shouldn't just play like that.

Also the "new paradigm" of cutting some of the legions out to sell separetly is just the Cut-Content-DLCification of the rules sides of things and should be understood as that. Same happened with tempestus and as we can see it has often barely enough effort behind for the cut out factions... 2/3 currently are just lackluster and DG, the one with the most support, has been as another poster brought up expanded mostly in "middle management".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Charax wrote:
3.5 was great, it just had a few overpowered combos relative to other books at the time that people are still maligning it for decades later. I mean, nobody would bat an eyelid if IWs got 4 HS slots in 6th or 7th,but because it happened in 3rd the sky is falling!

The problem is GW radically overcompensated and made 4th the blandest codex you could possibly imagine, and they've been on a "can't repeat 3.5, gotta keep Chaos weak" kick ever since, whereas actually 3.5 was just slightly ahead of its time and a lot of the concepts would have worked brilliantly in later editions

Is it perfect? No, but it's the best ruleset (in terms of flexibility and lore representation) Chaos have had before or since, which is why people keep referring back to it.


ironically 4th was worse with slaanesh lash princes and obliterators from a balance perspective. And the overcompensation aspect is true, i still have the WD that introduced dinobots and talked about the 6th(?) ed codex and the inspiration was basically only 4th edition in that article.
I further miss 4th edition doctrine guard...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/06/01 08:36:31


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






The main problem with 3.5 was the attrocious internal balance.

Go on; tell me you ever even considered Daemonic Venom or an Ether Lance...
It was well designed in terms of flexibility (not layout) but half of the options might as well not have existed.
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Lord Damocles wrote:
The main problem with 3.5 was the attrocious internal balance.

Go on; tell me you ever even considered Daemonic Venom or an Ether Lance...
It was well designed in terms of flexibility (not layout) but half of the options might as well not have existed.


50% usable things still puts it above 4th or any later CSM codex for that matter though...

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Yes, 'cause internal balance in every other Codex was perfect. It was only 3.5 that had problems.

Not Online!!! wrote:
50% usable things still puts it above 4th or any later CSM codex for that matter though...
Unfair comparison. The 4th Ed 'Chaos' Codex didn't have any options.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yes, 'cause internal balance in every other Codex was perfect. It was only 3.5 that had problems.

Not Online!!! wrote:
50% usable things still puts it above 4th or any later CSM codex for that matter though...
Unfair comparison. The 4th Ed 'Chaos' Codex didn't have any options.


Unit options.
Which realistically turned into Lasprince, Lashprince. 2x 5 CSM (with plasmaguns). 3x3 Obliterators, 3x3 combimelta termicide squads.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/06/01 14:46:14


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in gb
Gavin Thorpe




That's hardly fair.
There were also Nurgle Bikers!

EDIT: Apparently not actually, must have my editions mixed up. Yeah that's actually fairly comprehensive.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/01 15:40:10


WarOne wrote:
At the very peak of his power, Mat Ward stood at the top echelons of the GW hierarchy, second only to Satan in terms of personal power within the company.
 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Mozzamanx wrote:
That's hardly fair.
There were also Nurgle Bikers!

EDIT: Apparently not actually, must have my editions mixed up. Yeah that's actually fairly comprehensive.


nono, you're right, but they often did not make the cut against termicide, or replaced 1-2 termicide squads with 2 min squads with bikes and plasma.

But locally it was above.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Oh right. Weren't nurgle bikers a thing in 4th edition? Because you got +1T from the bike and +1T from the Nurgle mark making them T6 in total? So bolters would have been wounding them on a 6+ if memory serves?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/01 23:09:00



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Bikers could get an Icon of Nurgle which gave them +1T. If the Icon died though they forgot which Chaos God they served and lost the bonus.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Wyldhunt wrote:
Oh right. Weren't nurgle bikers a thing in 4th edition? Because you got +1T from the bike and +1T from the Nurgle mark making them T6 in total? So bolters would have been wounding them on a 6+ if memory serves?

If it was 4th it'd have been T4 (6), no?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Charax wrote:
3.5 was great, it just had a few overpowered combos relative to other books at the time that people are still maligning it for decades later. I mean, nobody would bat an eyelid if IWs got 4 HS slots in 6th or 7th,but because it happened in 3rd the sky is falling!

There's a lot more wrong with that codex you're purposely missing, but sure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
Y'all need to stop looking at CSM 3.5 like it was some holy grail.
No, I don't think we have to do that at all.

The 3.5 Chaos Codex was the single best Codex that Chaos have ever received.

Which is objectively incorrect when 7th + Supplement existed, even if for less than a year. THAT actually provided a way to build basically any Legion with any list. But yeah sure, random restrictions that were either too harsh to consider or non-restrictions were soooooo cool. OH and super pointless and redundant upgrades too.

Hell, if 7th allowed you to pick your Warlord Traits, that'd have tackled the main issues with customization I'm sure you'll complain about.

The only thing it didn't handle was Renegade Chapters, but with the silly Allies chart just take the Loyalist Huron and whatever Chaos formations you want.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
My point was that they didn't introduced Rough Riders, they introduced Atillan Rough Riders, which was a damned shame and (yet another patented GW) missed opportunity. I lament the current Guard Codex because of the 'Aspect Warrior' nature.

And of course I know that other Guard armies use cavalry. How could you possible think that I or anyone wouldn't already know that? Hell, I wrote all the cavalry rules/mount options for the Only War RPG, FFS.


And if that were true, you'd not care about the arbitrary naming of the Rough Riders.

You're SO focused on the names and needing bespoke rules for it that you forget what you supposedly stand for.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2023/06/02 01:04:58


 
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





To be honest, that's just another reason to split them all out:

Everything should be in there, but the options and synergies should be different from book to book.

Sure all the Deathguard are ostensibly a child of Mortarion and have his nature - but the rare one here and there would be rebellious and successful at something different.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Which is objectively incorrect when 7th + Supplement existed, even if for less than a year.
7th was the worst edition of the game. Nothing that came out in that edition deserves any sort of recognition.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
HAT actually provided a way to build basically any Legion with any list...
3.5 already did that.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
But yeah sure, random restrictions that were either too harsh to consider or non-restrictions were soooooo cool. OH and super pointless and redundant upgrades too.
A Codex with restrictions? A Codex with pointless and redundant upgrades? My goodness. I didn't know that these things were unique to the 3.5 book and have never ever been in any other Codex in any other edition ever. Wow. I'm shocked. This is relevatory!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And if that were true, you'd not care about the arbitrary naming of the Rough Riders.
I don't think it's arbitrary. It certainly wasn't for Cadian, Krieg and Catachan units. I would have really liked:

1. There to have been a non-Atillan Rough Rider entry.
2. For the Atillan RRs to maybe somewhat better, reflected in points/stats (and not "bespoke" rules, before you misuse that word again).
3. For the kit to reflect that these options.

One way or another I'm putting Cadian heads on my RRs, but some of us think about the fluff and our armies quite a bit and don't think that 'counts as' is a sufficient answer to such situations.

I've already explained how you're misusing this word. Stop it.

But to answer the point...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
You're SO focused on the names and needing bespoke rules for it that you forget what you supposedly stand for.
And you're so focused on crushing down and removing options, choice and even unique units from armies (and even whole armies!) that you forget what this game is meant to be: FUN!


This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2023/06/02 03:24:33


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





I disagree with your 7th statement. I liked corsairs and r&h and the traitor supplement was also really well done.

Further to consider it started the trend of cutting out factions and reselling them with books to you, a Trend still with us which has only delivered 2 unmigitated desasters (WE and TS) and one medicore but arguably untrue to the way DG.

Not only that but the general quality of the csm dex has also collapsed, if we don't ignore god divisions of the BL or cult renegades like the purge,etc.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Further to consider it started the trend of cutting out factions and reselling them with books to you, a Trend still with us which has only delivered 2 unmigitated desasters (WE and TS) and one medicore but arguably untrue to the way DG.
To which I go back to my original statement: Having lived in times where these things existed, and times where they have not, I would rather have them than not have them.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Further to consider it started the trend of cutting out factions and reselling them with books to you, a Trend still with us which has only delivered 2 unmigitated desasters (WE and TS) and one medicore but arguably untrue to the way DG.
To which I go back to my original statement: Having lived in times where these things existed, and times where they have not, I would rather have them than not have them.


And i rather have them in a singular book and be done via customisation system based upon choices of alignment AND original force which unlocks and prohibits certain units and or marks.

Also it flanderised these factions and mainline csm which nowadays seem to only be closet WB.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Not Online!!! wrote:
And i rather have them in a singular book and be done via customisation system based upon choices of alignment AND original force which unlocks and prohibits certain units and or marks.
I'm presuming the options are separate books or none at all.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Also it flanderised these factions and mainline csm which nowadays seem to only be closet WB.
Putting something in a separate book does not Flanderise a faction. What happened to the Wolves didn't happen because they got their own book.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/02 05:39:04


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Is that true though? Because the only effect i see is that separation and iteration seemed to have forced the writers in their effort to distinguish these forces from their mainline variant to flanderise them.

Granted the Split out csm legions got the short end of the stick and so did Space Wolves.
And i am not saying decent separate books aren't possible but for either scenario (Split or customizable) the writers at gw don't have the skill.
Atleast with a consilidated book the custommer doesn't get robbed as much.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/06/02 05:49:16


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut






H.B.M.C wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Also it flanderised these factions and mainline csm which nowadays seem to only be closet WB.
Putting something in a separate book does not Flanderise a faction. What happened to the Wolves didn't happen because they got their own book.


Wolves needed more unique units to justify having their own book. You see a repeating pattern with Marine flavours where a variant will get something special, then vanilla will get that thing too, then the variant will get something new which makes them more variant again, etc etc...
That didn't *have* to result in wolf wolf wolf, but it's clear that there's a pattern of the variants getting more wolf wolf wolf, blood blood blood, plasma plasma fallen, as time goes on.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/02 05:55:52


 
   
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Not Online!!! wrote:
Is that true though? Because the only effect i see is that separation and iteration seemed to have forced the writers in their effort to distinguish these forces from their mainline variant to flanderise them.

Granted the Split out csm legions got the short end of the stick and so did Space Wolves.
And i am not saying decent separate books aren't possible but for either scenario (Split or customizable) the writers at gw don't have the skill.
Atleast with a consilidated book the custommer doesn't get robbed as much.
Space Wolves were the first Codex.

I think you're confusing giving something an identity vs what happens when you let that identity dominate their entire being.

Blood Angels were given an identity that was distinct from regular Space Marines, and that came with it unique rules and a few units that separated them from, say, Ultramarines and the like. Then Matt Ward came along and we started getting Bloodfists and Blood Talons and Bloodshard Rounds and the fething Sanguinor. He began to Flanderise them, but they were pulled back from the brink before they went over the edge of no return.

Space Wolves, on the other hand, were given units and abilities that were distinct to them and showed how far they had tread from the idea of a "normal" Space Marine. This existed for quite some time, but then they did go over that cliff, and we got Wolfy McWolfenwolf riding a giant wolf, Space Marines riding wolves, ice so hard they make claws out of it, Santa Grimnar, whatever the hell those God-awful Wulfen minis ended up being and... *sigh* Murderfang.

I'd argue that this hasn't happened to Dark Angels, or Templars, or Deathwatch (Deathwatch are a bit all over the place because their big expansion came in the form of First Born Marines and, like with GKs, they're stuck with that problem until GW just replaces them with Primaris minis), or Death Guard or Thousand Sons. World Eaters? 100%. They've got Berzerkers, Berzerker Berzerkers and Berzerker Berzerker Berzerkers and lost so much of their army that they might as well not exist (and including all the things GW could have included - Berzerker Bikerz, Houndstooth Havocs (or whatever they were called), the mother fething Slaughterbrute, and so on).

Having a distinct identity does not mean you are Flanderised.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Wolves needed more unique units to justify having their own book.
As I said above, Wolves were literally the first Codex GW printed. They did not need more units to justify them as a separate Codex.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/02 06:02:00


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"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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Khorne's teeth , the havocs of WE.

DW and GK could be regarded as such though, from an inquisitorial perspective and especially GK suffer from warditis so both these can count as half

Templars, ehhh half. But i rekon that has to do with my cultural background.

DG are 100% flanderised and even worse as demonstrated in this thread got middlemanagementitis and a case of pox.

Blood angels still are. No matter how much Players whish M.W. did touch them.

TS are just trivialised into the ground or basically codex AOS imported goods.

And WE.

So of your exemples, even with your measurements: 10 total 2 got flanderised. 20%

By my measures we are at 5.5 from 10 so 55% , mind i counted templars as half and both former inquisitorial forces.

Even if we go with the middleground 35-40% flanderisation quota we are one wardian Type iteration away from flanderisation.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2023/06/02 06:32:33


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Is that true though? Because the only effect i see is that separation and iteration seemed to have forced the writers in their effort to distinguish these forces from their mainline variant to flanderise them.

Granted the Split out csm legions got the short end of the stick and so did Space Wolves.
And i am not saying decent separate books aren't possible but for either scenario (Split or customizable) the writers at gw don't have the skill.
Atleast with a consilidated book the custommer doesn't get robbed as much.
Space Wolves were the first Codex.

And? Why does that matter?
   
 
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