jcd386 wrote:
I've found that once you add in all the proper reroll and buff auras, the frag missiles become somewhat better than people are giving them credit for.

With rerolls to hit, rerolls of 1 to wound, and storm of fire, frag missiles are considerably more effective as Las Cannons against t3 5+ targets. With the Las killing 3.4ish on average, and the frag killing 6.8ish.

It's also worth mentioning that the most guardsmen 4 las cannons can kill is 4, while the most frag cannons can kill is 24. Obviously this won't happen that often, but if you just get a little lucky with frags they can be pretty effective, and if you get unlucky, they are probably about as bad as the las are.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
I've found that once you add in all the proper reroll and buff auras, the frag missiles become somewhat better than people are giving them credit for.

With rerolls to hit, rerolls of 1 to wound, and storm of fire, frag missiles are considerably more effective as Las Cannons against t3 5+ targets. With the Las killing 3.4ish on average, and the frag killing 6.8ish.

It's also worth mentioning that the most guardsmen 4 las cannons can kill is 4, while the most frag cannons can kill is 24. Obviously this won't happen that often, but if you just get a little lucky with frags they can be pretty effective, and if you get unlucky, they are probably about as bad as the las are.

Typically we are looking at averages though instead of max damage.

Another way to look at it is that, for the same price, you give your Lascannon 1 worse AP (the S9 doesn't pop up as an advantage to me, sorry), and you gain a Storm Bolter.
Maybe if Land Raiders become even more common, and we see what broken garbage the Eldar codex brings, Lascannons S9 will be more important. The main selling point though is the AP-3 with that delicious range.

jcd386 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
I've found that once you add in all the proper reroll and buff auras, the frag missiles become somewhat better than people are giving them credit for.

With rerolls to hit, rerolls of 1 to wound, and storm of fire, frag missiles are considerably more effective as Las Cannons against t3 5+ targets. With the Las killing 3.4ish on average, and the frag killing 6.8ish.

It's also worth mentioning that the most guardsmen 4 las cannons can kill is 4, while the most frag cannons can kill is 24. Obviously this won't happen that often, but if you just get a little lucky with frags they can be pretty effective, and if you get unlucky, they are probably about as bad as the las are.

Typically we are looking at averages though instead of max damage.

Another way to look at it is that, for the same price, you give your Lascannon 1 worse AP (the S9 doesn't pop up as an advantage to me, sorry), and you gain a Storm Bolter.
Maybe if Land Raiders become even more common, and we see what broken garbage the Eldar codex brings, Lascannons S9 will be more important. The main selling point though is the AP-3 with that delicious range.

Right, and on average, with the rerolls you shoulld have in an SM army, frag missiles are much better. I wouldn't ever count on the rolling well thing, but you should be aware that not only is the average higher, the potential is higher too. And the thing is, statistically, you will roll well somewhat often. And when you do, it simply pays off more for frag than it does for Las.

Waaaghpower wrote:

jcd386 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
I've found that once you add in all the proper reroll and buff auras, the frag missiles become somewhat better than people are giving them credit for.

With rerolls to hit, rerolls of 1 to wound, and storm of fire, frag missiles are considerably more effective as Las Cannons against t3 5+ targets. With the Las killing 3.4ish on average, and the frag killing 6.8ish.

It's also worth mentioning that the most guardsmen 4 las cannons can kill is 4, while the most frag cannons can kill is 24. Obviously this won't happen that often, but if you just get a little lucky with frags they can be pretty effective, and if you get unlucky, they are probably about as bad as the las are.

Typically we are looking at averages though instead of max damage.

Another way to look at it is that, for the same price, you give your Lascannon 1 worse AP (the S9 doesn't pop up as an advantage to me, sorry), and you gain a Storm Bolter.
Maybe if Land Raiders become even more common, and we see what broken garbage the Eldar codex brings, Lascannons S9 will be more important. The main selling point though is the AP-3 with that delicious range.

Right, and on average, with the rerolls you shoulld have in an SM army, frag missiles are much better. I wouldn't ever count on the rolling well thing, but you should be aware that not only is the average higher, the potential is higher too. And the thing is, statistically, you will roll well somewhat often. And when you do, it simply pays off more for frag than it does for Las.

"Twice as many wounds as Lascannons against one of the weakest hordes in the game, but only when the enemy isn't in cover and your guns are buffed by a named character/a captain and 3 Command Points, a Lieutenant, and a Warlord Trait" is not "Much better".
When we say 'Lascannons get almost as many kills', we aren't saying that as some kind of mark of pride. We're saying that Lascannons are a *terrible* choice for horde killing, and they still come within a reasonable range of what Frag Missiles will get.

stratigo wrote:
You want a lieutenant. And not a primeris one. With a gunline rerolling those 1s to wound is a game maker.

Also, yeah, your army is awful for BTs, and salamanders would be much better . But, is what it is.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Tournament coming up in 2 weeks. Trying to fine-tune my army. C&C please.

ITC standard. Only thing I'm inflexible on for the list is running them as BT (Painted and all). Well aware I'd be better off with UM or RG, but it is what it is.

Brigade

/snip.

Mandragola wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Tournament coming up in 2 weeks. Trying to fine-tune my army. C&C please.

ITC standard. Only thing I'm inflexible on for the list is running them as BT (Painted and all). Well aware I'd be better off with UM or RG, but it is what it is.

Brigade

/snip.

Wow, a brigade. Cool.

Couple of thoughts:

Throw those scouts away and replace with intercessors. Intercessors, unlike bolter scouts, are good. More wounds, more attacks, better armour, better (though fewer) guns.

You have two predators and a whirlwind. Take 3 predators instead, sit your general near them with storm of fire, and activate the kill shot stratagem. Many things will die. I realise that you need a lot of spare points to do this, so if it's not possible then never mind. Or drop a razorback to do it, maybe swapping the guys inside for more intercessors. Did I mention that I like intercessors?

You're (inevitably) a bit character-heavy. Personally I'd ditch one of your captains and get a lieutenant, as has already been suggested. Sit him with your captain and predators for even more fun times.

A slightly silly way to effectively take one less HQ is the rhino primaris. In a razorback army you could potentially take one of them as an HQ, rather than taking a razorback for one of your troops. In effect you get a free HQ - though at the obvious cost of the twin AC on the razorback. The RP's buffs and orbital bombardment are pretty fun though.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

stratigo wrote:
You want a lieutenant. And not a primeris one. With a gunline rerolling those 1s to wound is a game maker.

Also, yeah, your army is awful for BTs, and salamanders would be much better . But, is what it is.

Why standard over Primaris? Yes I can put him in a vehicle, but then I get no aura. Primaris gives me 5 wounds at 14 ppw, versus 4 wounds at 15ppw. Considering the number one threat to my buff characters are snipers (And those that ignore invulns, to boot), is there a pro to the standard LT I'm missing?

Pros for BT - Relic helm which is probably the strongest relic, IMO. Access to cenobyte servitors - critical for getting a brigade. BT denial strategem, allows a more likely denial of one power per turn. I never fail a short range charge, haha.

Cons - I don't get Girlyman. I don't get RG -1 to hit. I don't get 1 reroll per infantry squad.

Girlyman is huge, mostly because he's one of the most criminally undercosted units in the game. I think the RG/Sally loss is offset by the BT buffs, considering my vehicles would get no use from their CT, and I gain a large reroll bubble that does affect vehicles.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Tournament coming up in 2 weeks. Trying to fine-tune my army. C&C please.

ITC standard. Only thing I'm inflexible on for the list is running them as BT (Painted and all). Well aware I'd be better off with UM or RG, but it is what it is.

Brigade
HQ
Captain on bike - PF, SS (Becomes chap master. Storm of fire trait. BT helm relic. Currently has PF because painted, and no points to go to TH)
Captain with JP - TH, SS
Emperor's Champion (Goes in Rhino)

Troops
Crusaders x5 - Power Sword on sgt
Rhino - 2x Storm bolters
Crusaders x5 - Plas gun, Plas can, Combi-plas
Razorback - AC, SB, HKM
Crusaders x5 - Plas gun, Plas can, Combi-plas
Razorback - AC, SB, HKM
Crusaders x5 - Plas gun, Plas can, Combi-plas
Razorback - AC, SB, HKM
Scouts x9 (Most likely bolters)
Scouts x9 (Most likely bolters)

Elites
Company Vet x2 - Power sword on sgt (Goes in Rhino)
Company Vet x2 - Power sword on sgt (Goes in Rhino)
Cenobyte servitors x3 (6 pt elite choice FTW)

Fast
Tarantula Turret - Twin Heavy Bolter
Tarantula Turret - Twin Heavy Bolter
Tarantula Turret - Twin Heavy Bolter

Heavy
Predator - Autocannon, Lascannons, HKM
Predator - Autocannon, Lascannons, HKM
Whirlwind - Vengeance launcher, HKM

Experience so far is that having the 9" aura with storm of fire makes the bike Chap Master a solid mini-guilleman. I lose 3" and 3 free CP, but I save enough points to go brigade, so I think I end up with a similar number of CP in game. It's been a game changer every time.

Predators and the TH/SS jump captain have been MVPs, every game. The 3 flat damage is so amazing and consistent. Occasionally the Lascannons will erase something or chip armor, but the pred autocannon almost always puts 3-6 wounds on whatever it shoots at.

Asscanbacks are amazing. With the rerolls and storm of fire they just pour out so much hate. Their overwatch is potent too.

HKM are a little pricey but the alpha potential they give you is something you can't really afford to give up. I can't think of a better place for the 36 points, unless there was a bigger overall shifting of the list.

Things I'm not sold on

1) EC vs LT

Not wed to EC and melee squad in Rhino, could swap him out for a primaris LT, though I need to keep the 2x2 vets as they are the cheapest elite choice (aside from the unique cenobyte servitors). They've worked well as a repelling force vs assault armies. Scouts absorb initial charge, EC and a rhino of marines counter charge in my turn and finish off whatever shooting leaves standing. EC is dirt cheap for the melee power he has, but an LT would up my firepower a lot. I could shift some points and do LT with JP and a PF or something, maybe.

2) Plasma squads

Experience has shown plasma squads do very well within range of rerolls. The overcharge with 4+d3 shots can help finish off vehicles or pick up characters in my lines very reliably. Could swap cannon to a heavy bolter, it is statistically very similar for half the cost unless the cannon overcharges. Since I generally am using them when overcharging, seems like I should keep it all plasma to be specialized in that role. Other option is to remove all their weapons, which would save me 49 pts per squad, so 147 for my list. I could get another razorback with that, though the overcharged plasma fills a high S, multi-damage role the assault cannons do not.

3) Whirlwind

The whirlwind is pretty consistent. It's damage output is always less than a pred, but it gives me a tool to fight out of LOS targets. It isn't likely to win a fight against IG artillery, but it can do some damage if it goes first or they whiff. Have considered swapping to a hyperios for anti-air and increased S. For the cost I don't have a lot of other heavy slot choices that I'm in love with. I could take a Hunter, but I'm not a fan of single-shot weapon systems.

Overall

I'm pretty happy with how the army has been playing, just looking for inputs on fine-tuning it.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
Tournament coming up in 2 weeks. Trying to fine-tune my army. C&C please.

ITC standard. Only thing I'm inflexible on for the list is running them as BT (Painted and all). Well aware I'd be better off with UM or RG, but it is what it is.

Brigade

/snip.

Wow, a brigade. Cool.

Couple of thoughts:

Throw those scouts away and replace with intercessors. Intercessors, unlike bolter scouts, are good. More wounds, more attacks, better armour, better (though fewer) guns.

You have two predators and a whirlwind. Take 3 predators instead, sit your general near them with storm of fire, and activate the kill shot stratagem. Many things will die. I realise that you need a lot of spare points to do this, so if it's not possible then never mind. Or drop a razorback to do it, maybe swapping the guys inside for more intercessors. Did I mention that I like intercessors?

You're (inevitably) a bit character-heavy. Personally I'd ditch one of your captains and get a lieutenant, as has already been suggested. Sit him with your captain and predators for even more fun times.

Thanks for the input. Not trying to argue, just doing a back and forth.

Scouts are there solely to deny first turn assault via deepstrike. Something intercessors cannot do effectively without forcing me back into a corner and giving up the ability to maneuver. Critical in games now because of heavy LOS blocking terrain. I'd get 1 intercessor for every 2 scouts. I don't think 20 scouts or 10 intercessors firepower is going to really do much damage to anything. Neither is going to live to the end of the game if they're being used as bubble wrap. Intercessors are like 10% more wounds/attacks/shots per point, since you get 2 scouts per intercessor, though the armor is notable. They just lack the footprint I need/want for stopping heavy assault style units.

I've considered the 3rd predator, though not sure where I'd find 80 pts. Kill shot is amazing, and with a brigade I can definitely afford to use it a lot - if I don't lose a predator. I think this is a legit suggestion, but I'm not sure I can adjust the list adequately to fit it, or if it'll actually play out well. I rarely keep my predators within 6" of each other, generally they're each on the opposite side of 9" of my chapter master for better LOS coverage.

3 characters is character heavy? I have 279 pts in my HQ - less than girlyman alone. Why replace the captain over the EC? I'm definitely leaning towards an LT, but it seems like the EC would be the more obvious choice to replace. The EC is better vs chars than TH/SS, but TH/SS decimates walkers, heavy infantry and is perfectly adequate vs chars. He's also very mobile. EC seems very situational, and the LT would be a strong army-wide buff.

stratigo wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

stratigo wrote:
You want a lieutenant. And not a primeris one. With a gunline rerolling those 1s to wound is a game maker.

Also, yeah, your army is awful for BTs, and salamanders would be much better . But, is what it is.

Why standard over Primaris? Yes I can put him in a vehicle, but then I get no aura. Primaris gives me 5 wounds at 14 ppw, versus 4 wounds at 15ppw. Considering the number one threat to my buff characters are snipers (And those that ignore invulns, to boot), is there a pro to the standard LT I'm missing?

Pros for BT - Relic helm which is probably the strongest relic, IMO. Access to cenobyte servitors - critical for getting a brigade. BT denial strategem, allows a more likely denial of one power per turn. I never fail a short range charge, haha.

Cons - I don't get Girlyman. I don't get RG -1 to hit. I don't get 1 reroll per infantry squad.

Girlyman is huge, mostly because he's one of the most criminally undercosted units in the game. I think the RG/Sally loss is offset by the BT buffs, considering my vehicles would get no use from their CT, and I gain a large reroll bubble that does affect vehicles.

the normal lieutenant is significantly cheaper. Give him chainswords and nothing else and he is his base 60. The primeris lieutenant has to buy gak. Also deploying in a vehicle is useful for limiting drops, and your entire army is mobile.

I think the ultramarine relic, the sanctic halo, is probably the best. I've never had an issue keeping guys within 6 of calgar, but you do has more units than my calgar list usually runs (a strictly casual list verse my G man list).

Salymanders would drastically increase the efficiency of your MSU plasma troops. It's mini guilliman for free. It's the best chapter tactic. Better than even the RG.

Your LT should never be shot at by the by, you have vehicles, he can hide.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Honestly Plasma Cannons require too much saturation and have too few shots most of the time. Why not spring for the Grav Cannon? It'll overall be 2 shots landing compared to 1, and will gain a wound bonus vs the more important targets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I feel we need to start discussing how to deal with Guard. If they got no point adjustments for their regular infantry, they're going to be brutal to face.

Post 2017/09/26 16:23:12 Subject: Space Marines 8th edition, glory to the codex (ohh and those black templar guys too)
Traceoftoxin wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
Traceoftoxin wrote:
Tournament coming up in 2 weeks. Trying to fine-tune my army. C&C please.

ITC standard. Only thing I'm inflexible on for the list is running them as BT (Painted and all). Well aware I'd be better off with UM or RG, but it is what it is.

Brigade

/snip.


Wow, a brigade. Cool.

Couple of thoughts:

Throw those scouts away and replace with intercessors. Intercessors, unlike bolter scouts, are good. More wounds, more attacks, better armour, better (though fewer) guns.

You have two predators and a whirlwind. Take 3 predators instead, sit your general near them with storm of fire, and activate the kill shot stratagem. Many things will die. I realise that you need a lot of spare points to do this, so if it's not possible then never mind. Or drop a razorback to do it, maybe swapping the guys inside for more intercessors. Did I mention that I like intercessors?

You're (inevitably) a bit character-heavy. Personally I'd ditch one of your captains and get a lieutenant, as has already been suggested. Sit him with your captain and predators for even more fun times.


Thanks for the input. Not trying to argue, just doing a back and forth.

Scouts are there solely to deny first turn assault via deepstrike. Something intercessors cannot do effectively without forcing me back into a corner and giving up the ability to maneuver. Critical in games now because of heavy LOS blocking terrain. I'd get 1 intercessor for every 2 scouts. I don't think 20 scouts or 10 intercessors firepower is going to really do much damage to anything. Neither is going to live to the end of the game if they're being used as bubble wrap. Intercessors are like 10% more wounds/attacks/shots per point, since you get 2 scouts per intercessor, though the armor is notable. They just lack the footprint I need/want for stopping heavy assault style units.

I've considered the 3rd predator, though not sure where I'd find 80 pts. Kill shot is amazing, and with a brigade I can definitely afford to use it a lot - if I don't lose a predator. I think this is a legit suggestion, but I'm not sure I can adjust the list adequately to fit it, or if it'll actually play out well. I rarely keep my predators within 6" of each other, generally they're each on the opposite side of 9" of my chapter master for better LOS coverage.

3 characters is character heavy? I have 279 pts in my HQ - less than girlyman alone. Why replace the captain over the EC? I'm definitely leaning towards an LT, but it seems like the EC would be the more obvious choice to replace. The EC is better vs chars than TH/SS, but TH/SS decimates walkers, heavy infantry and is perfectly adequate vs chars. He's also very mobile. EC seems very situational, and the LT would be a strong army-wide buff.


Valid points on the scouts as bubble wrap. I use flyers for this and my army is pretty quick, so I don't care about being pushed back. In that case I'd take them in 5-man units though. It strikes me that fielding 3x5 scouts, and potentially losing a whole razorback full of crusaders, might be a good way for you to free up points for that predator.

Having to put all your predators in one place is indeed a problem of the kill shot approach. On the other hand you aren't forced to do it if you don't want to - but it's a nice option to have. Predators are good so having 3 remains a good thing even if you aren't always using kill shot. Meanwhile the whirlwind really does not look very good at all to me.

I have to say, I'm not sold on the idea of using a brigade at 2k - at least as marines. I just run a battalion and I find it's ok. CPs are good, but not good enough to justify spending hundreds of points on units you don't really want. I just threw together a brigade list using intercessors for all the troops and at realised I had far too few big guns. I think you're in the same boat. If I was lined up against you I think I'd look to pop your predators asap (I'd probably go first) and after that you'd probably struggle to get rid of my storm raven, repulsor and xiphon. Please don't take this as one-upmanship - I just find that the best way to analyse a list is to imagine fighting against it.

Instead, I'd take a battalion and a spearhead. Drop your tarantulas and elites - or get some that are actually useful. A couple of contemptors would give you something that could fight in cc (really really well) for example - and they'd even benefit from your CTs. You wouldn't be swimming in CPs but you'd have an ok number still. You'd also unlock access to planes, which you can't really afford to ever bring in a brigade.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

I could do 3x5, saves me 33 pts, then drop a crusader squad all together and that will give me enough for a pred. I can keep the razorback as a DT for scouts. Good idea.

I think the whirlwind is better than it looks at first glance, but I agree a predator is more likely the stronger choice.

I don't spend hundreds on units I don't want, actually the only units I have I don't want are cenobyte servitors, and they're 6 pts. The tarantulas are very cost efficient, they have not failed to kill their points or more every game. The vets work great as counter-assault units for relatively cheap coming out of the Rhino. I am happy with my heavy and troops and HQ slots, although the EC being changed to an LT seems like a smart change. Even assuming I drop them, they're only a combined 71 points, and the 4 company vets are 84 (92 with the swords). So I have 161 pts of units that you say I should drop. If I wanted something to fight well in CC to replace them I'd take another Jump captain with TH/SS - they're extremely cost efficient and effective, but the battalion allows me to use the 3CP on a chapter master and still have 9 CP. Which is about how many I use in 3 turns, my average game length (after turn 3, the game is generally decided).

jcd386 wrote:
Your LT is unlikely to ever see combat, so cheaper is better, period. He's just there for the aura. You don't have to worry about him being shot because he is a character.

You have a lot of points in your characters. Sobe they are mostly just there for rerolls, i typically take mine on foot, start them in a tank, and then disembark and advance in the first turn if my fire base is moving up. To me, the bike and jump pack seem unneeded.

I also wonder if 1 capt and 2 LTs is better than 2 capts, since the 9" might be enough to keep your whole army inside of, and for a lot of weapons rerolling wounds of 1 is better or the same as rerolling hits of 1 if you do happen to be out of range of the CM, but not a LT.

Scouts are great, but I've found 15 to be enough to deny most enemies.

I'd at least think about taking 3 preds instead of 2 and the ww.

Seems good to me other than that.

Oh and yes, grav is the way to go for sure, i think.

Mandragola wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

I could do 3x5, saves me 33 pts, then drop a crusader squad all together and that will give me enough for a pred. I can keep the razorback as a DT for scouts. Good idea.

I think the whirlwind is better than it looks at first glance, but I agree a predator is more likely the stronger choice.

I don't spend hundreds on units I don't want, actually the only units I have I don't want are cenobyte servitors, and they're 6 pts. The tarantulas are very cost efficient, they have not failed to kill their points or more every game. The vets work great as counter-assault units for relatively cheap coming out of the Rhino. I am happy with my heavy and troops and HQ slots, although the EC being changed to an LT seems like a smart change. Even assuming I drop them, they're only a combined 71 points, and the 4 company vets are 84 (92 with the swords). So I have 161 pts of units that you say I should drop. If I wanted something to fight well in CC to replace them I'd take another Jump captain with TH/SS - they're extremely cost efficient and effective, but the battalion allows me to use the 3CP on a chapter master and still have 9 CP. Which is about how many I use in 3 turns, my average game length (after turn 3, the game is generally decided).

Cool. It sounds like you know your list. Between all of us I think we've made some improvements to it. Dropping the crusader squad but keeping the RB is getting the best of both.

Good luck.

I'm putting a list together for a tournament myself. I'd be interested in comments. My guys are crimson fists. It's 2k, with just a single battalion so 6CPs.

I tried it out last night against GKs in the relic. I won heavily but was helped a lot by seizing the initiative. I realised that I've got nothing that deep strikes, which could be an issue. I'm now thinking about swapping my aggressors for 5 cataphractii with fists, storm bolters and maybe a grenade harness. I could trim a bit off the repulsor to save the points. To be honest I think that would probably be the right call.

Primaris Captain (Warlord)
Plasma Pistol
Power Fist (Upgraded to Fist of Vengeance relic)
Warlord Trait: +1A on charge and reroll charges

Primaris Librarian
Force Sword
Smite
Null Zone
Might of Heroes

5 Intercessors
Auxiliary Grenade Launcher

5 Intercessors
Auxiliary Grenade Launcher

5 Intercessors
Auxiliary Grenade Launcher

3 Assault Centurions
Three Hurricane Bolters
Four Flamers
Two Melta Guns
Omniscope

5 Aggressors
Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets
Fragstorm Grenade Launchers

5 Hellblasters
Plasma Incinerators

Storm Raven Gunship
Twin Plasma Cannon
Twin Multi-melta
Two Stormstrike Missile Launchers
Two Hurricane Bolters

Xiphon Interceptor
Two Twin Lascannon
Xiphon Missile Battery

Repulsor
Las Talon
Twin Lascannon
Onslaught Gatling Cannon
Three Storm Bolters
Two Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
Two Krakstorm Grenade Launchers
Ironhail Heavy Stubber

Without the (~2% per shot) chance of frying yourself. The number of 4+, multi-wound targets that you will need to be disembarking to kill is pretty limited, basically just some Daemons, Harlequin characters, a handful of Ork/Nids/DE, and Eldar light vehicles? I think you're right and the gravs might be the better choice. The problem is going to be finding the points. Is the efficiency difference worth cutting HKM?

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

stratigo wrote:
You want a lieutenant. And not a primeris one. With a gunline rerolling those 1s to wound is a game maker.

Also, yeah, your army is awful for BTs, and salamanders would be much better . But, is what it is.

Why standard over Primaris? Yes I can put him in a vehicle, but then I get no aura. Primaris gives me 5 wounds at 14 ppw, versus 4 wounds at 15ppw. Considering the number one threat to my buff characters are snipers (And those that ignore invulns, to boot), is there a pro to the standard LT I'm missing?

Pros for BT - Relic helm which is probably the strongest relic, IMO. Access to cenobyte servitors - critical for getting a brigade. BT denial strategem, allows a more likely denial of one power per turn. I never fail a short range charge, haha.

Cons - I don't get Girlyman. I don't get RG -1 to hit. I don't get 1 reroll per infantry squad.

Girlyman is huge, mostly because he's one of the most criminally undercosted units in the game. I think the RG/Sally loss is offset by the BT buffs, considering my vehicles would get no use from their CT, and I gain a large reroll bubble that does affect vehicles.

the normal lieutenant is significantly cheaper. Give him chainswords and nothing else and he is his base 60. The primeris lieutenant has to buy gak. Also deploying in a vehicle is useful for limiting drops, and your entire army is mobile.

I think the ultramarine relic, the sanctic halo, is probably the best. I've never had an issue keeping guys within 6 of calgar, but you do has more units than my calgar list usually runs (a strictly casual list verse my G man list).

Salymanders would drastically increase the efficiency of your MSU plasma troops. It's mini guilliman for free. It's the best chapter tactic. Better than even the RG.

Your LT should never be shot at by the by, you have vehicles, he can hide.

14 pts cheaper if I give him no special weapon. That could either give my chapter master a thunderhammer, or I could give the LT a combi, or pistols or something. Good point, I didn't remember the cost of their guns. As for drops, I'm already at 14. I'm not going to finish deploying first. ITC uses first player gets +1 to go first, so it's not crippling to have this many drops.

The halo is definitely legit, but I get 3" ontop of my 6" for not just my full rerolls, but also storm of fire. Agree to disagree, but there's no denying both are strong, I think.

How? I get one reroll to wound on each squad. I already get full rerolls to hit. It's a very minor statistical increase for my army, at the cost of gaining a very large amount of bubble range (The more inches in a bubble, the more area each inch covers. 6" is a 113" bubble, 9" is a 254" bubble. The extra 3" more than doubles effective area) for two strong buffs which affect every unit I run. Nevermind the fact that the RG and BT stratagems are both stronger than sallys. The sally CT relies entirely on MSU infantry squads, which certainly have a place in the current meta. However, in an army which has rerolls widely available (and used), I think it's overrated. UM have the best stuff, all together, as Girlyman is OP, their CT negates a core mechanic of the game, their relic (as you pointed out) is very strong, and their stratagem is decent. I digress, to return to the point, I don't see serious advantage in any CT over BT with my army list aside from UM, and it's a moot point anyways as that's not something I'm changing.

If he's hiding he's not buffing. I can't put him in a vehicle after the shooting phase, so if I'm not buffing with him there's no point to having him. The only counter argument to this is leaving him in a vehicle during deployment, which is a valid advantage for standard LT. I'm reasonably sure I can keep him out of LOS, particularly if I go with the (well) suggested standard LT. Which I think I will, over the EC.

 Cadian16th wrote:

Without the (~2% per shot) chance of frying yourself. The number of 4+, multi-wound targets that you will need to be disembarking to kill is pretty limited, basically just some Daemons, Harlequin characters, a handful of Ork/Nids/DE, and Eldar light vehicles? I think you're right and the gravs might be the better choice. The problem is going to be finding the points. Is the efficiency difference worth cutting HKM?

Remember, by moving and overcharging the PCs, you're sitting at about an 11% chance of frying yourself.

As it stands, black templars don't really give you anything while Sallys net you free rerolls. But it will not change and that is okay

Ultras do have the best characters of course, but that's independent of CT, which o think sallies and raven guard have the better options

bort wrote:
Taking the RG tactics thread discussion in to account and assuming ITC deployment rules, what do you think of this 2000pt RG list?:

Battalion + Spearhead Detachments (7 CP)

Shrike
Captain - storm bolter, power sword
Lieutenant - storm of fire, storm bolter, power sword

Company Ancient - standard of the Emperor Ascendant, storm bolter
Vanguard Veteran Squad (5) - 6 plasma pistols, 2 storm shields, 1 thunder hammer, 1 chain sword
Vanguard Veteran Squad (5) - 6 plasma pistols, 2 storm shields, 1 thunder hammer, 1 chain sword
Aggressor Squad (3) - 3 boltstorm gauntlets

Scout Squad (5) - 5 shotguns
Scout Squad (5) - 1 storm bolter, 4 bolters
Scout Squad (5) - 5 sniper rifles

Devastator Squad (5) - 4 lascannons, 1 storm bolter, cherub
Devastator Squad (5) - 4 lascannons, 1 storm bolter, cherub
Hellblaster Squad (7) - 7 plasma incinerators

Razorback - TL assault cannon, storm bolter, HK missile
Razorback - TL assault cannon, storm bolter, HK missile
Razorback - TL assault cannon, storm bolter, HK missile
Razorback - TL assault cannon, storm bolter, HK missile

Total: 2000/2000

The Hellblasters and Aggressors can SftS forwards with Shrike and the VVs and the rest form a firebase with the reroll auras.

I'm still not sold on the Scout armament, 20pts in rifles is a lot when I'm avging 1 wound from the unit at best, but I realized I do own 5 painted sniper models and half my bolter/shotguns are unassembled, so maybe I'll give it a try?...For those who saw my prior list revision, I did swap the 5 grav Devs for 7 Hellblasters. I still think the firepower is mostly a wash, but I do like 14W instead of 5W. If I kept the Devs, I thought I'd add 2 HB Tarantulas with the spare 60ish points. That'd give some super cheap DS protection without having to hold Scouts back.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

bort wrote:
...

The money from scouts is on the mortal wounds, so if they've got any sort of rerolls that helps fish for that. Seems like your StfS could do a good job controlling the enemy's movement, and gives you a ton of flexibility in deployment. My biggest concern is the fragility of devs, though with the -1 to hit and all those up front targets, theoretically they should be alright, I think. I've used bolter and shotgun squads for scouts, I'm not really seeing much difference. The shotguns put a few more wounds when you manage to infiltrate and get right on top of stuff, and the bolters get more targets to choose. Neither is killing its weight in points and the scouts generally just work to keep gak off my lines. Might find the sniper scouts would be better used as screening units, though the sniper rule can end up really paying off, I think. Hard to know.

bort wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

bort wrote:
...

The money from scouts is on the mortal wounds, so if they've got any sort of rerolls that helps fish for that. Seems like your StfS could do a good job controlling the enemy's movement, and gives you a ton of flexibility in deployment. My biggest concern is the fragility of devs, though with the -1 to hit and all those up front targets, theoretically they should be alright, I think. I've used bolter and shotgun squads for scouts, I'm not really seeing much difference. The shotguns put a few more wounds when you manage to infiltrate and get right on top of stuff, and the bolters get more targets to choose. Neither is killing its weight in points and the scouts generally just work to keep gak off my lines. Might find the sniper scouts would be better used as screening units, though the sniper rule can end up really paying off, I think. Hard to know.

I doubt the sniper rule is going to pay off with only 5 shots, I'm not threatening anything that isn't already near dead, but they were talked up in the RG thread and I didn't have a burning need for those 20pts. I could reshuffle some wargear and get another Hellblaster or Tarantula maybe. Oh, or drop a Hellblaster to get 5 more sniper rifles, but then they aren't as sacrificial bubble wrap now that they're armed.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

bort wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

bort wrote:
...

The money from scouts is on the mortal wounds, so if they've got any sort of rerolls that helps fish for that. Seems like your StfS could do a good job controlling the enemy's movement, and gives you a ton of flexibility in deployment. My biggest concern is the fragility of devs, though with the -1 to hit and all those up front targets, theoretically they should be alright, I think. I've used bolter and shotgun squads for scouts, I'm not really seeing much difference. The shotguns put a few more wounds when you manage to infiltrate and get right on top of stuff, and the bolters get more targets to choose. Neither is killing its weight in points and the scouts generally just work to keep gak off my lines. Might find the sniper scouts would be better used as screening units, though the sniper rule can end up really paying off, I think. Hard to know.

I doubt the sniper rule is going to pay off with only 5 shots, I'm not threatening anything that isn't already near dead, but they were talked up in the RG thread and I didn't have a burning need for those 20pts. I could reshuffle some wargear and get another Hellblaster or Tarantula maybe. Oh, or drop a Hellblaster to get 5 more sniper rifles, but then they aren't as sacrificial bubble wrap now that they're armed.

I regularly play against someone who uses 5 pathfinders, and they put out about a mortal wound a turn on chars. Sometimes none, sometimes two. Just having them does make the opponent change their tactics though.