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 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
Absolutely and I agree with that. I started playing WHFB in 6th and that is be far my favorite edition and aesthetic for the game. But its not 2000 anymore and if GW is going to be putting out new stuff for this little project, it will be done in such a way as to protect their IP.

That's just the way the corporate world works now. GW will not design and produce anything that another company can come in a poach by making cheaper alternatives. Hell, due to 9th age there are PLENTY of companies making miniatures that I can use for WHFB if I want.

Whatever GW comes up with will probably disappoint anyone who want to go back 20 years when it comes to aesthetic. I, unlike others here, don't have any disillusions about that.
With that in mind, I wonder how long it will be before GW decides to actually provide some information on what this Old World project is supposed to entail. When the Sisters of Battle were to be produced (the most similar case I can think of where they spent a prolonged period of time on previews of WIP and final pieces), there wasn't much room for misinterpretation. There would be full range, they would all be in plastic, the core figures would look exactly as anybody would expect them to (the major change in aesthetics being mostly just the Repentia). Obviously, this is a far larger project with many aspects still being considered and worked out. Even so, they must have a plan for the timeline, the initial locations/factions to be covered, the type of game, the material in which the miniatures will be produced, whether OOP models are to be brought back or if it will only feature new sculpts, and so on. Whatever happens, certain people will be disappointed because the aesthetics, rules or setting won't match the version they would have liked to see return, and I can't help but feel getting the disappointment out of the way early will help.
   
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Watch Fortress Excalibris

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The concept art looks less Russian and more Middle Eastern.


The thing is, a lot of what people think of as elements of 'Middle-Eastern' aesthetic are actually Central Asian, brought to the Middle East by the Mongols and Turks.

Take that Abzan dude, put some fur around his helmet and the tops of his boots, change the backdrop of the picture to grass and snow instead of sand, and suddenly he goes from 'fantasy Ottoman' to 'fantasy Mongol' or 'fantasy Cossack'.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/26 09:35:34




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Literally every Xenos faction in 40K needs new stuff way more than any of the factions I play. 
   
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West Lafayette, IN

BroodSpawn wrote:So here's my question - if you want the Old World back, and you want it 'exactly' how it was with no additional content in any for (no new sculpts, no new books, no rules updates).. aren't you wishing for a failed game to once more fail?


So you're assuming that everyone wants a return to the bloated trainwreck of 8th Ed. with Kirby's incompetent helming. Nice try. Me personally I'd like a swing back to 6th, when sales were healthy, the barrier to entry was low, and all it would have taken was some effort in advertising to move the game (and 40K at the time) off of High Street and into the public mainstream.

Mentlegen324 wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:


All in all this is simply a thematic retcon, it makes no sense with established lore and serves to do nothing except acclimate WTOW players to AOS and potentially have a playable faction for AOS players. I can see it now, the army formed to fight for the 9th wind of magic, the wind of Ice, also known as the Realm of Brrrrrrrrrrr.

Wait, that name isn't copyright friendly enough. Throw in some random "h"s.


In what way does this not fit the lore we already have for Kislev, though? Kislev is a culture with quite a heavy focus on Ice Magic where only Women are allowed/trained to use the Ice Magic. Ice Witches operate as a group that tries to influence Kislev culture and politics as well them defending Kislev itself. Ice Mages have the ability to do things like create swords and weapons made out of Ice, so enchanting something with ice seems within their abilities. While we haven't seen a unit of Kislev Ice Magic users quite like this before, it doesn't seem that out of place to think some might be better using their powers in other ways, or just might not develop their powers enough to be a full Ice Witch.


You're already exaggerating the scale. Heavily focused on Ice Magic is not accurate. Having female Ice Shamans influencing politicians is a DRASTIC difference from a mass number of Elsas flinging Ice Avalanches down on armies, or somehow having Ice Magic as interwoven into their society as to affect everyday tools. High Elves, who incorporate magic on a much higher scale, don't even have that. So now we assume that these Ice Shamans are also elite warriors on par with Swordmasters, Executions, Greatswords, Templeguard, and the like, who also have such a mastery of their powers as to create mystical ice weaponry. Oh, AND these Ice Shamans, who are so critical to the everyday function of Kislev Proper, are marched in a regiment in the middle of battlefields to potentially be picked off by Skinks with Blowpipes.

Every angle you look at this from your assumptions fall apart. Furthermore, I'd love to see ACTUAL PRINTED LORE that states ANYTHING you're claiming. Not a wiki where someone is paraphrasing, not some 3P garbage fluff piece, ACTUAL PRINTED GW MATERIAL that backs up your outlandish claim.

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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
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 Mangod wrote:
 Duskweaver wrote:
 Mangod wrote:
loosly based on the Ottoman Empire.

You mean those Central Asian steppe nomads who settled down on the eastern borders of an existing European empire and developed into an agrarian and city-based society? Those Ottomans? Sounds about right as a model for Kislev to me.


I'd expect Kislev to look and -sound more like the Reply of the Zaporozhian Cossacks than the Ottomans, but that's just moi.

And these ladies look like neither. They have traditional mongol/central asian round hats and outfits loosely inspired by that. And, this may shock you, those outfits heavily inspired Muscovy fashion after mongols have them a complete whipping, and even later post-mongol tribes and khanates either allied with or were part of both polish and russian kingdoms of the time period that inspired Warhammer initially.
   
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 Just Tony wrote:
BroodSpawn wrote:So here's my question - if you want the Old World back, and you want it 'exactly' how it was with no additional content in any for (no new sculpts, no new books, no rules updates).. aren't you wishing for a failed game to once more fail?


So you're assuming that everyone wants a return to the bloated trainwreck of 8th Ed. with Kirby's incompetent helming. Nice try. Me personally I'd like a swing back to 6th, when sales were healthy, the barrier to entry was low, and all it would have taken was some effort in advertising to move the game (and 40K at the time) off of High Street and into the public mainstream.

Mentlegen324 wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:


All in all this is simply a thematic retcon, it makes no sense with established lore and serves to do nothing except acclimate WTOW players to AOS and potentially have a playable faction for AOS players. I can see it now, the army formed to fight for the 9th wind of magic, the wind of Ice, also known as the Realm of Brrrrrrrrrrr.

Wait, that name isn't copyright friendly enough. Throw in some random "h"s.


In what way does this not fit the lore we already have for Kislev, though? Kislev is a culture with quite a heavy focus on Ice Magic where only Women are allowed/trained to use the Ice Magic. Ice Witches operate as a group that tries to influence Kislev culture and politics as well them defending Kislev itself. Ice Mages have the ability to do things like create swords and weapons made out of Ice, so enchanting something with ice seems within their abilities. While we haven't seen a unit of Kislev Ice Magic users quite like this before, it doesn't seem that out of place to think some might be better using their powers in other ways, or just might not develop their powers enough to be a full Ice Witch.


You're already exaggerating the scale. Heavily focused on Ice Magic is not accurate. Having female Ice Shamans influencing politicians is a DRASTIC difference from a mass number of Elsas flinging Ice Avalanches down on armies, or somehow having Ice Magic as interwoven into their society as to affect everyday tools. High Elves, who incorporate magic on a much higher scale, don't even have that. So now we assume that these Ice Shamans are also elite warriors on par with Swordmasters, Executions, Greatswords, Templeguard, and the like, who also have such a mastery of their powers as to create mystical ice weaponry. Oh, AND these Ice Shamans, who are so critical to the everyday function of Kislev Proper, are marched in a regiment in the middle of battlefields to potentially be picked off by Skinks with Blowpipes.

Every angle you look at this from your assumptions fall apart. Furthermore, I'd love to see ACTUAL PRINTED LORE that states ANYTHING you're claiming. Not a wiki where someone is paraphrasing, not some 3P garbage fluff piece, ACTUAL PRINTED GW MATERIAL that backs up your outlandish claim.


Well, you'll have it when the new book eventually comes out. Does it make it acceptable then?
   
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Sweden

Cronch wrote:
 Mangod wrote:
 Duskweaver wrote:
 Mangod wrote:
loosly based on the Ottoman Empire.

You mean those Central Asian steppe nomads who settled down on the eastern borders of an existing European empire and developed into an agrarian and city-based society? Those Ottomans? Sounds about right as a model for Kislev to me.


I'd expect Kislev to look and -sound more like the Reply of the Zaporozhian Cossacks than the Ottomans, but that's just moi.

And these ladies look like neither. They have traditional mongol/central asian round hats and outfits loosely inspired by that. And, this may shock you, those outfits heavily inspired Muscovy fashion after mongols have them a complete whipping, and even later post-mongol tribes and khanates either allied with or were part of both polish and russian kingdoms of the time period that inspired Warhammer initially.


Yes, and? They still don't look like Kislevites, that's my issue.

Let me put it like this; in an Empire army, a Demigryph Knight still looks like it belongs, because even if the Demigryph might be a bit out-there, the Empire already have Gryphons, and the Knight still looks like an Empire model. But if you try and slot a Stormcast Lord-Aquilor into the same Empire army it would look terribly out of place, because while they might share iconography (hammers, comets, etc) and he's riding a Demigryph as well, you're still trying to slot a Greek Hoplite into a fantasy version of the Holy Roman Empire.

I'm open to the idea that these models could look like they fit in, assuming that there are more models that fit in the middle between the old Kislev aesthetic and this, but as it is, they look like they should be part of Araby or whatever the Warhammer-version of Persia is rather than Kislev.
   
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 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
BroodSpawn wrote:So here's my question - if you want the Old World back, and you want it 'exactly' how it was with no additional content in any for (no new sculpts, no new books, no rules updates).. aren't you wishing for a failed game to once more fail?


So you're assuming that everyone wants a return to the bloated trainwreck of 8th Ed. with Kirby's incompetent helming. Nice try. Me personally I'd like a swing back to 6th, when sales were healthy, the barrier to entry was low, and all it would have taken was some effort in advertising to move the game (and 40K at the time) off of High Street and into the public mainstream.

Mentlegen324 wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:


All in all this is simply a thematic retcon, it makes no sense with established lore and serves to do nothing except acclimate WTOW players to AOS and potentially have a playable faction for AOS players. I can see it now, the army formed to fight for the 9th wind of magic, the wind of Ice, also known as the Realm of Brrrrrrrrrrr.

Wait, that name isn't copyright friendly enough. Throw in some random "h"s.


In what way does this not fit the lore we already have for Kislev, though? Kislev is a culture with quite a heavy focus on Ice Magic where only Women are allowed/trained to use the Ice Magic. Ice Witches operate as a group that tries to influence Kislev culture and politics as well them defending Kislev itself. Ice Mages have the ability to do things like create swords and weapons made out of Ice, so enchanting something with ice seems within their abilities. While we haven't seen a unit of Kislev Ice Magic users quite like this before, it doesn't seem that out of place to think some might be better using their powers in other ways, or just might not develop their powers enough to be a full Ice Witch.


You're already exaggerating the scale. Heavily focused on Ice Magic is not accurate. Having female Ice Shamans influencing politicians is a DRASTIC difference from a mass number of Elsas flinging Ice Avalanches down on armies, or somehow having Ice Magic as interwoven into their society as to affect everyday tools. High Elves, who incorporate magic on a much higher scale, don't even have that. So now we assume that these Ice Shamans are also elite warriors on par with Swordmasters, Executions, Greatswords, Templeguard, and the like, who also have such a mastery of their powers as to create mystical ice weaponry. Oh, AND these Ice Shamans, who are so critical to the everyday function of Kislev Proper, are marched in a regiment in the middle of battlefields to potentially be picked off by Skinks with Blowpipes.

Every angle you look at this from your assumptions fall apart. Furthermore, I'd love to see ACTUAL PRINTED LORE that states ANYTHING you're claiming. Not a wiki where someone is paraphrasing, not some 3P garbage fluff piece, ACTUAL PRINTED GW MATERIAL that backs up your outlandish claim.


Well, you'll have it when the new book eventually comes out. Does it make it acceptable then?


Realm of the Ice Queen pg 104-105
The ice witches of Kislev are feared and respected throughout the Old World. They are the darkest winter, the coldest ice, and the cruellest blizzard, and few can bear their presence for long. But being an ice witch is more than simply practicing Ice Magic and defending Kislev from its foes. Ice witches of an ancient sisterhood that has long influenced and often ruled the Gospodar tribe—and still does to this day. They are in touch with the wintry spirits of the land and the frozen flows of magic surging through it; thus, they work hard to preserve the old ways and ancient places, keen to ensure their pristine magic remains unsullied and pure.


Will have a look for more when back from work but these seem to be a good building block.....again we are unsure of what period in Kislevs history this is set in are we not?

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I think they are leaning more into the steppe archer aesthetic, of which apparently Kislev had some incorporated into their army? (Perhaps in a shout out to the Golden Horde, or the Kosacks)

   
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 Just Tony wrote:

You're already exaggerating the scale. Heavily focused on Ice Magic is not accurate. Having female Ice Shamans influencing politicians is a DRASTIC difference from a mass number of Elsas flinging Ice Avalanches down on armies,

Speaking of exaggerations....

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Philadelphia

 Mangod wrote:

I'm open to the idea that these models could look like they fit in, assuming that there are more models that fit in the middle between the old Kislev aesthetic and this, but as it is, they look like they should be part of Araby or whatever the Warhammer-version of Persia is rather than Kislev.


I think that what everyone knows, is that GW won't sell anything that looks like a historical counterpart, where someone could go and buy some historical range to take its place. GW isn't going to lean in on Renaissance Europe, or Cossacks, or even old Kislev (Winged Hussars), since they have clear historical counterparts. Oh, and don't forget the wonky naming conventions, just so there's no confusion.

Some people will buy them, some people won't, and if enough of the oldhammer/WHFB players don't buy in, then the line fails, and GW confirms that there was no market before the AoS switch, even though it was all mismanaged and poorly executed at the time.

I think the concept art looks fine, for a video game, or for a new skirmish game by some indie company. For GW to use that as an example of "Old World", doesn't pass the glance test for me, and the more it looks like WoW, or other video games, then the less likely I am to buy in. Its already so far out on the horizon, I really can't be fussed. Besides, I have so much Bret stuff, DElf, Empire, and Elves, that I'm not GW's target audience anyway. Fortunately, there are enough historicals, and other major companies making fantasy models, that I can pick and choose how to fill out my armies, and at least make them coherent in that way.

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I am a bit confused by Kislev. They have Polish winged hussars and Mongolian horse archers. I think the new ice guard fit with the horse archers. The hats and weapons look in line. Though I prefer the winged hussars. I do like the ice guard.



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I dunno about this Kislev stuff but they better bring back Empire Knights

 warboss wrote:
Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
 
   
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 Crazyterran wrote:
I dunno about this Kislev stuff but they better bring back Empire Knights


I'm sure they will, but I highly doubt they'll be the generic "makes any order" style of the plastics.

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 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
I have never read so much doom and gloom from one piece of concept art in my life, Jeez guys.

Man so long as I can use my Empire army I really don't care what the new stuff looks like. Besides, i'm still sticking to the belief were getting Mordheim first.


All this has proved to me yet again, is a lot of people can't stand the idea of change. Even minor ones for a small fbarely fleshed out faction. God knows what it's going to be like if the Empire gets something like this.


It's not change, per se. It's about an expansive IP encompassing multiple mediums, and individuals interfacing with said IP in different ways and developing their own experiences and headcanons.


So in other words, absolutely no one is going to like this release because everyone has their own headcanon and history and no one is going to be pleased. Sounds about right then.


Each of us lives in his or her own reality. And yes, if recent years in pop culture have taught us anything, it's that returning to old IP is fraught with peril and nerdrage. Soooooo much nerdrage.

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Cruentus wrote:
Some people will buy them, some people won't, and if enough of the oldhammer/WHFB players don't buy in, then the line fails, and GW confirms that there was no market before the AoS switch, even though it was all mismanaged and poorly executed at the time.


I dont think you'll need to worry about that- I'm sure there will tons of people who will buy the models for proxies and conversions for AoS and 40k

   
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One of the inherent issues they have to navigate is Old World Warhammer being such a long-standing IP that there's a lot of variety between aesthetic. Everyone has 'their' concept of the Old World across various editions and any disconnect from that on an individual basis is going to spoil the nostalgic marketability that they're surely looking for with a lot of players. GW have to be careful to hit a middle ground or it will surely fall flat.

For me, the Kislev art would fit in fine with the 8th Edition aesthetic had it been presented then. That's not 'my' era of Warhammer though and, probably selfishly, I'd be more excited if I thought they were going to lean into the 4th/5th Edition look (with modern production quality of course). Shadow of the Horned Rat era style in minature form. That's my nostalgia pop.

Given this looks very much to be tied to Specialist Games, I'd be surprised if that's not at least nominally the period of Warhammer they're developing from, at least in the look of it, given Necromumda and Blood Bowl have, more or less, taken that early to mid 90s vibe and given it a facelift.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/26 14:13:38


 
   
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 gorgon wrote:
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
I have never read so much doom and gloom from one piece of concept art in my life, Jeez guys.

Man so long as I can use my Empire army I really don't care what the new stuff looks like. Besides, i'm still sticking to the belief were getting Mordheim first.


All this has proved to me yet again, is a lot of people can't stand the idea of change. Even minor ones for a small fbarely fleshed out faction. God knows what it's going to be like if the Empire gets something like this.


It's not change, per se. It's about an expansive IP encompassing multiple mediums, and individuals interfacing with said IP in different ways and developing their own experiences and headcanons.


So in other words, absolutely no one is going to like this release because everyone has their own headcanon and history and no one is going to be pleased. Sounds about right then.


Each of us lives in his or her own reality. And yes, if recent years in pop culture have taught us anything, it's that returning to old IP is fraught with peril and nerdrage. Soooooo much nerdrage.

Equally its taught us that the nerdrage doesn't matter, recycling IPs makes money regardless of complaints. So not really much peril.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Sweden

Voss wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
I have never read so much doom and gloom from one piece of concept art in my life, Jeez guys.

Man so long as I can use my Empire army I really don't care what the new stuff looks like. Besides, i'm still sticking to the belief were getting Mordheim first.


All this has proved to me yet again, is a lot of people can't stand the idea of change. Even minor ones for a small fbarely fleshed out faction. God knows what it's going to be like if the Empire gets something like this.


It's not change, per se. It's about an expansive IP encompassing multiple mediums, and individuals interfacing with said IP in different ways and developing their own experiences and headcanons.


So in other words, absolutely no one is going to like this release because everyone has their own headcanon and history and no one is going to be pleased. Sounds about right then.


Each of us lives in his or her own reality. And yes, if recent years in pop culture have taught us anything, it's that returning to old IP is fraught with peril and nerdrage. Soooooo much nerdrage.

Equally its taught us that the nerdrage doesn't matter, recycling IPs makes money regardless of complaints. So not really much peril.


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Exceptions in a sea of exploited IPs. They managed to turn She-Ra into a popular show...
   
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I think we can easily create a list of nostalgia-based stuff that underperformed, however. Sometimes they manage it by smearing the fan service on really thickly.

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 Smokestack wrote:
I am a bit confused by Kislev. They have Polish winged hussars and Mongolian horse archers. I think the new ice guard fit with the horse archers. The hats and weapons look in line. Though I prefer the winged hussars. I do like the ice guard.





Those horse archers aren’t Mongolian. They’re based on renaissance era Cossacks.
   
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Montreal, QC Canada

The entire Kislev aesthetic is just a mishmash of Eastern European cultures and Steppe peoples. They are not designed to represent one single culture like the Empire (German Landsknecht) or Brettonia (Angevin Empire)

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Vigo. Spain.

Yeah. And mixing polish and russian aesthetics is as unsensitive as you can get but is better to not think about that very much. But the same happens with Lizardmen for example, they are just the generic vision of how we see those cultures, when in reality they had a ton of differences that are obvious to people that has studied them.
I don't say thats a bad thing, mixing different similar cultures in a "pop" version of those culture. We do it with everything.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/26 17:01:27


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
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 Mangod wrote:


Terminator: Dark Fate and Ghostbusters 2016 says the "not much peril"-part is wrong.

Hardly. It just means you can still make a bad product independently of the nostalgia value. A movie isn't just an mishmash of improv scenes edited together. Similarly, a setting reboot isn't just doing the exact same thing over again and expecting the old audience to be enough or that new fans will appear out of the ether. Both need to be pulled in, and old fans need to realize that 'exactly the same' isn't going to happen- largely because it wouldn't be enough.

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going back to actual Warhammer lore as was requested:

Realm of the Ice Queen page 27 - some relevant extracts

The Ice Witches: One of the most famed and feared political groups in Kislev is the ice witches. Women of great magical power, of whom Tzarina is their most famous member, they command the very elements and bring to bear the might of the land in defence of their great nation.


pg 46
The ice witches of Kislev are more than just women with the ability channel the Ancient Widow’s cold flows; they are an organised sisterhood who works together to achieve shared goals. Formed over a thousand years ago by the Khan-Queens, the ice witches have manoeuvred their way into influencing almost all matters in Kislev. They strive to ensure almost nothing is beyond their reach. They suppress competing philosophies and magic and promote those sympathetic to their causes.


The Gospodars have long been influenced by their ice witches, and as they are entrenched into the ruling caste of Kislev, this dominance is unlikely to change soon. Further, many Gospodar communities across Kislev are watched over and advised by ice witches, and most can make demonstrable shows of their devastating powers if invaders arrive. Thus, the witches are very popular, though most Kislevites are still wary of them


From these influential positions, the witches have worked tirelessly to become entrenched in Kislevite society, manoeuvre their number into positions of power, and ensure their sisters are heeded. Now, they are almost always listened to and often obeyed. Their influence in Kislev is almost unrivalled.


Creating an Ice Guard formed from some of the Ice Witches seems another step in their influence - they are almost Lahmian in some of their tactics




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 Mr Morden wrote:
going back to actual Warhammer lore as was requested:

Realm of the Ice Queen page 27 - some relevant extracts

The Ice Witches: One of the most famed and feared political groups in Kislev is the ice witches. Women of great magical power, of whom Tzarina is their most famous member, they command the very elements and bring to bear the might of the land in defence of their great nation.


pg 46
The ice witches of Kislev are more than just women with the ability channel the Ancient Widow’s cold flows; they are an organised sisterhood who works together to achieve shared goals. Formed over a thousand years ago by the Khan-Queens, the ice witches have manoeuvred their way into influencing almost all matters in Kislev. They strive to ensure almost nothing is beyond their reach. They suppress competing philosophies and magic and promote those sympathetic to their causes.


The Gospodars have long been influenced by their ice witches, and as they are entrenched into the ruling caste of Kislev, this dominance is unlikely to change soon. Further, many Gospodar communities across Kislev are watched over and advised by ice witches, and most can make demonstrable shows of their devastating powers if invaders arrive. Thus, the witches are very popular, though most Kislevites are still wary of them


From these influential positions, the witches have worked tirelessly to become entrenched in Kislevite society, manoeuvre their number into positions of power, and ensure their sisters are heeded. Now, they are almost always listened to and often obeyed. Their influence in Kislev is almost unrivalled.


Creating an Ice Guard formed from some of the Ice Witches seems another step in their influence - they are almost Lahmian in some of their tactics




I put in bold the part this doesn't support and in italics those it does support :
Mentlegen324 wrote:In what way does this not fit the lore we already have for Kislev, though? Kislev is a culture with quite a heavy focus on Ice Magic where only Women are allowed/trained to use the Ice Magic. Ice Witches operate as a group that tries to influence Kislev culture and politics as well them defending Kislev itself. Ice Mages have the ability to do things like create swords and weapons made out of Ice, so enchanting something with ice seems within their abilities. While we haven't seen a unit of Kislev Ice Magic users quite like this before, it doesn't seem that out of place to think some might be better using their powers in other ways, or just might not develop their powers enough to be a full Ice Witch.

Honestly, all the lore I've seen on Ice Witches sells me that they would just work SO MUCH better as characters than as a unit.

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 Mr Morden wrote:
going back to actual Warhammer lore as was requested:

Realm of the Ice Queen page 27 - some relevant extracts

Spoiler:
The Ice Witches: One of the most famed and feared political groups in Kislev is the ice witches. Women of great magical power, of whom Tzarina is their most famous member, they command the very elements and bring to bear the might of the land in defence of their great nation.


pg 46
The ice witches of Kislev are more than just women with the ability channel the Ancient Widow’s cold flows; they are an organised sisterhood who works together to achieve shared goals. Formed over a thousand years ago by the Khan-Queens, the ice witches have manoeuvred their way into influencing almost all matters in Kislev. They strive to ensure almost nothing is beyond their reach. They suppress competing philosophies and magic and promote those sympathetic to their causes.


The Gospodars have long been influenced by their ice witches, and as they are entrenched into the ruling caste of Kislev, this dominance is unlikely to change soon. Further, many Gospodar communities across Kislev are watched over and advised by ice witches, and most can make demonstrable shows of their devastating powers if invaders arrive. Thus, the witches are very popular, though most Kislevites are still wary of them


From these influential positions, the witches have worked tirelessly to become entrenched in Kislevite society, manoeuvre their number into positions of power, and ensure their sisters are heeded. Now, they are almost always listened to and often obeyed. Their influence in Kislev is almost unrivalled.


Creating an Ice Guard formed from some of the Ice Witches seems another step in their influence - they are almost Lahmian in some of their tactics


Well, I'd say those passages definitely keep underlining how organized and powerful the witches are, no matter what people's headcanons may be. So the idea of some kind of bodyguard unit/militarized unit of lower level witches doesn't seem worth the pages of anguish we've seen here. People are 100% allowed not to LIKE it. That's fine. But I have a hard time seeing how any neutral observer would think this new unit is some kind of major fluff betrayal.

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I'm a huge fan of the ice witches angle. Definitely appeals to me as an army sub-theme.

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I remember similar debates ages ago when the Brettonians got Pegasus Knights, that GW was going all magic-rich high fantasy rather than magic-poor low fantasy. It only got worse as baby Griffion Knights and other stuff showed up.

No matter, no one's tearing up your old books or setting fire to your old armies, but it's been clear for a while GW wanted a more distinct Olde Worlde rather than historical armies with a stray wizard or dragon.

Even before the Chapter House suit and IPR madness.

 
   
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I put in bold the part this doesn't support and in italics those it does support :

Mentlegen324 wrote:
In what way does this not fit the lore we already have for Kislev, though? Kislev is a culture with quite a heavy focus on Ice Magic where only Women are allowed/trained to use the Ice Magic. Ice Witches operate as a group that tries to influence Kislev culture and politics as well them defending Kislev itself. Ice Mages have the ability to do things like create swords and weapons made out of Ice, so enchanting something with ice seems within their abilities. While we haven't seen a unit of Kislev Ice Magic users quite like this before, it doesn't seem that out of place to think some might be better using their powers in other ways, or just might not develop their powers enough to be a full Ice Witch.

Honestly, all the lore I've seen on Ice Witches sells me that they would just work SO MUCH better as characters than as a unit.


Ok same source :

Only women can be ice witches:
The ice witches guard many prophecies and legends. One claims a male witch will one day taint the pristine flows of Ice Magic, changing it forever. So strong is the ice witches’ fear of a male witch that ever since the days of Tzarina Shoika, men have been banned from becoming spellcasters in Kislev. This decree has been justified with claims that men are unsuitable for magic and will surely fall to corruption, and these beliefs are now strongly held by all levels of society. To this day, male hedge wizards are tracked down and killed by the state. Or if they are noble, they have their magical capabilities removed by witches using a ritual similar to Pacification in the Empire.


Ice witches power
Upon her ascension to the throne of Kislev, it is said the Bokha Palaces grew a new wing, hundreds of yards in length and formed entirely of glittering ice.

Women of great magical power, of whom Tzarina is their most famous member, they command the very elements and bring to bear the might of the land in defence of their great nation. They are a strange breed, being physically and spiritually linked to the seasons, growing weaker in the summer and stronger in the winter




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"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

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