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 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Heelidar wrote:
I really hoped that they just make AS do a psy test with one dice.

I was hoping they would make the AS a seperate unit entirely and give them a 3" aura that benifitted units with the AiD rule. Same for SOT.

I really like the idea, but this is something I was not counting on. And you could have only dreamed about it before the first codex rumours went public. Who knows maybe one day it will become a reality.

Azuza001 wrote:
Maybe odd wasn't the right word, but I said that because it's not like it was something that was there that was forgotten about in earlier versions of the game. It's not something I expected in the faq or even considered them doing.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea. Replace my force staff for 2 power swords, and keep my pistol? Cool. Would have been much cooler if I could do it on an exalted on a disk, and it does make exalted a bit more unique compared to Ahriman, but it's not enough to make me go "forget that, I am taking 2 dualist exalteds now" .

If I do take exalteds now I will definitely do that upgrade, but if my exalted is in cc either things just went really bad or I am very desperate.

Well to be fair he is a watered down version of a DP, if you have 10 man Tzaangor squads he could be quite useful, and with Diabolical Strength they become S6 A6 AP-3 so nothing to scoff at.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MinscS2 wrote:


1) 1-2 squads, either 1x20 or 2x10 (in Rhinos preferably). My comment was about either taking a big squad of Rubrics (20) or a big squad of SOT's. Never take a big squad of both. I don't mind taking a big squad of SOT's and 1-2 10-man squads of Rubrics in the same list.

2) 6+ power or an "unimportant" 7+ power like Firestorm/Gift. As for reliability, Gaze of Fate and (if need be) a CP-reroll to prevent them from PotW:ing. If I cast Firestorm or Smite, the re-roll is more intended as preventing PotW rather than actually making the power go off.

3) Apples and Oranges. A Squad of Rubrics fill a entirley different role than a unit of Tzaangors/Cultists and a Sorcerer. One shoots, the other is a character with some fodder.

4) Depends. If one big squad of 20 then as part of an alphastrike. Deepstrike them close to something, VotLW (and preferably prescience and DP/Exalted Aura) and delete something.
If in smaller squads of 10 then I usually put them in Rhinos and use them as 'traditional' rubrics. Drive forward, hop out and shoot something.
They're essentially "dps" with remarkable resilience towards small-arms fire. And if my opponent shoots them with plasma/AT-weaponry, then at least he's not shooting my vehicles.
If nothing else they're one of three possible troop-choices, and since I don't like Cultists and don't always want to run Tzaangors (or only Tzaangors), they usually find a way into my lists. I also really like the Model's.

1.) A difference without much distinction, but fair point i guess its more of a don't spend much more then 400 points on Rubricae.

2.) Fair enough i see. I do basically the same.

3.) Well yes, kinda.

4.) This is where the Kinda comes into play. If your going for an Alpha then why not take Tzaangors you can get a 30 man squad amd a Sorc for 100ish points less. When it comes to durability you can cast WoF on a cultist squad to make them durable enough or on a unit of Tzaangors for that matter. It seems like you include them because you simply like them rather then they are perticularly good at anything.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


4.) This is where the Kinda comes into play. If your going for an Alpha then why not take Tzaangors you can get a 30 man squad amd a Sorc for 100ish points less. When it comes to durability you can cast WoF on a cultist squad to make them durable enough or on a unit of Tzaangors for that matter. It seems like you include them because you simply like them rather then they are perticularly good at anything.

Rubrics and Tzaangors are not mutually exclusive in an alphastrike, you can take both.
Tzaangors want Warptime and VotLW in the fight-phase.
Rubrics want Prescience and VotLW in the shooting-phase.

That's my reason for not bringing a big unit of Rubrics and SOT's in the same list: They both want Prescience and VotLW in the same phase, but you can only give it to one of them.
The same applies to Tzaangors; You don't want to Webway Infiltrate two big units, because they both want Warptime and VotLW, but you can only give it to one of them.

As for not being particularly good at anything, on the turn they arrive, said unit of Rubrics will on average do:
34,8 wounds against GEQ's.
21,6 wounds against MEQ's.
15,7 wounds against TEQ's.
14,6 wounds against T7 3+.
10,8 wounds against T8 3+. (not their optimal target.)

(This assumes Prescience, VotLW and a DP/Exalted reroll, all 3 buffs which are easy to come by and should be applied when you're spending so much pts on a unit.)

They will overkill most infantry they're shooting at, luckily we can splitfire at will in 8th Ed.

 MinscS2 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


4.) This is where the Kinda comes into play. If your going for an Alpha then why not take Tzaangors you can get a 30 man squad amd a Sorc for 100ish points less. When it comes to durability you can cast WoF on a cultist squad to make them durable enough or on a unit of Tzaangors for that matter. It seems like you include them because you simply like them rather then they are perticularly good at anything.

Rubrics and Tzaangors are not mutually exclusive in an alphastrike, you can take both.
Tzaangors want Warptime and VotLW in the fight-phase.
Rubrics want Prescience and VotLW in the shooting-phase.

That's my reason for not bringing a big unit of Rubrics and SOT's in the same list: They both want Prescience and VotLW in the same phase, but you can only give it to one of them.
The same applies to Tzaangors; You don't want to Webway Infiltrate two big units, because they both want Warptime and VotLW, but you can only give it to one of them.

As for not being particularly good at anything, on the turn they arrive, said unit of Rubrics will on average do:
34,8 wounds against GEQ's.
21,6 wounds against MEQ's.
15,7 wounds against TEQ's.
14,6 wounds against T7 3+.
10,8 wounds against T8 3+. (not their optimal target.)

(This assumes Prescience, VotLW and a DP/Exalted reroll, all 3 buffs which are easy to come by and should be applied when you're spending so much pts on a unit.)

They will overkill most infantry they're shooting at, luckily we can splitfire at will in 8th Ed.

That's why I like scarabs, because they can do both. Drop down, get warptime, prescience and votlw in shooting, eliminate a unit, then charge and votlw in melee to eliminate another unit. You don't have to decide between deepstriking one unit at a time. Also you have one target to throw all your defensive buffs at rather than two.

 MinscS2 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


4.) This is where the Kinda comes into play. If your going for an Alpha then why not take Tzaangors you can get a 30 man squad amd a Sorc for 100ish points less. When it comes to durability you can cast WoF on a cultist squad to make them durable enough or on a unit of Tzaangors for that matter. It seems like you include them because you simply like them rather then they are perticularly good at anything.

Rubrics and Tzaangors are not mutually exclusive in an alphastrike, you can take both.
Tzaangors want Warptime and VotLW in the fight-phase.
Rubrics want Prescience and VotLW in the shooting-phase.

That's my reason for not bringing a big unit of Rubrics and SOT's in the same list: They both want Prescience and VotLW in the same phase, but you can only give it to one of them.
The same applies to Tzaangors; You don't want to Webway Infiltrate two big units, because they both want Warptime and VotLW, but you can only give it to one of them.

As for not being particularly good at anything, on the turn they arrive, said unit of Rubrics will on average do:
34,8 wounds against GEQ's.
21,6 wounds against MEQ's.
15,7 wounds against TEQ's.
14,6 wounds against T7 3+.
10,8 wounds against T8 3+. (not their optimal target.)

(This assumes Prescience, VotLW and a DP/Exalted reroll, all 3 buffs which are easy to come by and should be applied when you're spending so much pts on a unit.)

They will overkill most infantry they're shooting at, luckily we can splitfire at will in 8th Ed.

Except that Scarabs:

1) Deep strike for free vs Deep strike for 2CP/your relic.
2) Have exactly the same amount of firepower plus two hellfyre rockets, so if you want to VOTLW them in the shooting phase, go right ahead. It's certainly what I do. Why would I VOTLW their 2 S4 AP-3 D1 melee attacks when I can VOTLW their 4 S4 AP-2 D1 shooting attacks + special guns?
3) Have no morale issues
4) get a melee weapons basically for free as compared to equal points of rubrics

In my eyes, Scarabs beat Rubrics as deep strike alpha hands down. The only time Rubrics are doing something different to recommend them is when you're taking them with Warpflamers, and then you're warptiming them, which IMO is a much less efficient turn 1 warptime than 30 tzaangors into combat.

I think the point you describe is valid, I just think the competing unit fits that role far, far better, wheras Rubrics are much better suited to the rhino-borne highly durable midfield slugger/spell support role.

Dakka I find is this weird place where a large number of people really only seem to want to talk in terms of top-tier tournament competitiveness, and to be fair a few do legitimately seem to be living in that special kind of hellscape where all their opponents are ebaying their armies every 3 months to stay on top of the meta hotness, but the rest seem to just want to talk like they do.

This leads to some strange situations where people will take a unit that they like and theory-craft how great they'd be against top tier meta lists, and then the unit they don't like they'll theory-craft how quickly the meta list will destroy them, when in actual practice they've never played against said meta list or have only played against semi-competitive versions (like say a normal eldar list with one max-sized ynnari reaper unit with a farseer).

For most people, stuff depends on the local meta. Lots of local metas feature way more MEQ/elite armies than the current tournament meta favors - against these opponents, 10 man rhino squads of rubrics will be very effective. If people are playing Tau, Space Marines, Chaos Marines, Sisters of Battle, Necrons, etc - Rubrics paired with a solid tzaangor distraction carnifex makes for an excellent core of a thousand sons list. Against horde armies like Orks, Guard, or gribble swarm nids, then minimal rubrics and lots of Tzaangors/Daemons will work better for you. And if you love rubrics but hate the goats and you're in a local area where loads of people are playing guard and nids, every unit of tzeentch daemons you bring in to support yourself with is going to be absolute gold for your army. A tzeentch battalion with 2 min-sized brim/blue units as a deep strike screen, a single maxed pink unit, a herald, changeling, and 6 flamers in deep strike is more than enough tailoring against common mid-level horde army setups to allow you to run classic rubric-focused thousand sons and compete just fine.

the_scotsman wrote:


Except that Scarabs:

Oh I'm not trying to debate Rubrics over Scarabs, I prefer Scarabs as well (even if Rubrics have some advantages in being troops, being less vulnerable to multi-damage attacks and actually having 3 extra S4 AP2 shots at 12" range, 35 vs 32), I'm just trying to point out that Rubrics are not useless.

I think rubrics really shine when in cover sitting on an objective. There is little reason to use a scarab if your doing that, it just costs more for arguably the same effectiveness. If your on the offensive then going scarabs are the better option. So really, what's your game plan? That determines everything. And which one is able to adapt to the others roll if things change when you start deploying?

Azuza001 wrote:
I think rubrics really shine when in cover sitting on an objective. There is little reason to use a scarab if your doing that, it just costs more for arguably the same effectiveness. If your on the offensive then going scarabs are the better option. So really, what's your game plan? That determines everything. And which one is able to adapt to the others roll if things change when you start deploying?

If only they had a nice heavy weapon to use when camping that objective huh?

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
I think rubrics really shine when in cover sitting on an objective. There is little reason to use a scarab if your doing that, it just costs more for arguably the same effectiveness. If your on the offensive then going scarabs are the better option. So really, what's your game plan? That determines everything. And which one is able to adapt to the others roll if things change when you start deploying?

If only they had a nice heavy weapon to use when camping that objective huh?

Sure, if you want to pay the tax another 5 men would cost, and hope they have cover that's big enough to put them all into.

the_scotsman wrote:

Except that Scarabs:

1) Deep strike for free vs Deep strike for 2CP/your relic.

Why would it cost 2CP for deepstriking Rubrics?

pismakron wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Except that Scarabs:

1) Deep strike for free vs Deep strike for 2CP/your relic.

Why would it cost 2CP for deepstriking Rubrics?

I believe the assumption is you were already deepstriking Tzaangors for 1 so its another 2 to get the Rubrics.

 nintura wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
I think rubrics really shine when in cover sitting on an objective. There is little reason to use a scarab if your doing that, it just costs more for arguably the same effectiveness. If your on the offensive then going scarabs are the better option. So really, what's your game plan? That determines everything. And which one is able to adapt to the others roll if things change when you start deploying?

If only they had a nice heavy weapon to use when camping that objective huh?

Sure, if you want to pay the tax another 5 men would cost, and hope they have cover that's big enough to put them all into.

Eh, the loss of the soul reaper isn't the end of the world to me. It makes me sad yes but not enough to not run 5 men camper squads. I like inferno bolters a lot, they simply are amazing guns.

Plus death hex + rubrics vs genestealers = dead stealers for days....

 nintura wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
I think rubrics really shine when in cover sitting on an objective. There is little reason to use a scarab if your doing that, it just costs more for arguably the same effectiveness. If your on the offensive then going scarabs are the better option. So really, what's your game plan? That determines everything. And which one is able to adapt to the others roll if things change when you start deploying?

If only they had a nice heavy weapon to use when camping that objective huh?

Sure, if you want to pay the tax another 5 men would cost, and hope they have cover that's big enough to put them all into.

I usually do bring the 10-man squad and find they work well, grab that Soulreaper cannon and set them up somewhere midfield. 10 bodies means they're more than just a unit that sits there doing nothing on the objective and instead does fairly solid damage at 24". I usually have at least some gunline components/vehicles benefitting from ahriman or an exalt, and the 10 man rubric squads mean I can usually get them in range of the aura as well as in cover.

Where I play we generally use the Statuary rule for all our cover, so "fully on or within" is not an issue for us. Models within 3" and 25% obscured by the terrain are within cover.

My additional thoughts on making use of 20 Rubrics in the Webway...

Drop the Rubrics, Sorcerer, and Abaddon in. Abaddon gives morale immunity. Position him so he can do a heroic intervention. Get Glamour and Weaver up on Rubrics and double tap away.

The rest of the list is fairly subjective. I've thought about a good number of dreadnoughts with double fists getting healed, but that might take too long.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
My additional thoughts on making use of 20 Rubrics in the Webway...

Drop the Rubrics, Sorcerer, and Abaddon in. Abaddon gives morale immunity. Position him so he can do a heroic intervention. Get Glamour and Weaver up on Rubrics and double tap away.

1) The only unit in your list that benefits from Abaddons fearless buff is your rubric mob. It is essentially impossible for your rubrics to lose 240 points worth of models to morale.

2) Abaddons other big buff is full rerolls of failed hits to black legion units. This is why he is often seen surrounded by big 40-model squads of cultists. 40 cultists with hit rerolls and fearless that are continuously recycled with the Tide of Traitors stratagem is pretty effective. But your list makes no use of that buff, even though you have 20 cultists in another detachment.

3) Abaddon grants 2 CP if he is your warlord, but by taking the Dark Matter Crystal he cannot be your warlord. Without those two CP's (that you have paid for but forfeited) your list will have 6 CPs (a patrol detachment grants no CP's), of which you will use 3 for deep striking. That means you will have 3 CP's for the entire game, which I think is a bit on the low side. Why not just take a cheap abaddon-less batallion and use two of the CP's to autopass morale if necessary?

4) By positioning Abaddon so he can do heroic intervention, I am assuming that it is part of your plan that your Rubrics will get charged? Is that wise?

Regards

pismakron wrote:
1) The only unit in your list that benefits from Abaddons fearless buff is your rubric mob. It is essentially impossible for your rubrics to lose 240 points worth of models to morale.

As by design, because it's the only unit I can fully protect. The goal is not to prevent 240 points of morale loss, but to make the mental equation of focusing on this unit less of a good choice while also preventing catastrophic morale loss.

2) Abaddons other big buff is full rerolls of failed hits to black legion units. This is why he is often seen surrounded by big 40-model squads of cultists. 40 cultists with hit rerolls and fearless that are continuously recycled with the Tide of Traitors stratagem is pretty effective. But your list makes no use of that buff, even though you have 20 cultists in another detachment.

That could be a second wave. As stated the rest of the list is subjective.

3) Abaddon grants 2 CP if he is your warlord, but by taking the Dark Matter Crystal he cannot be your warlord. Without those two CP's (that you have paid for but forfeited) your list will have 6 CPs (a patrol detachment grants no CP's), of which you will use 3 for deep striking. That means you will have 3 CP's for the entire game, which I think is a bit on the low side. Why not just take a cheap abaddon-less batallion and use two of the CP's to autopass morale if necessary?

Tzaangors aren't there for deepstriking, but rather a run in for wave 2, which could be BL cultists instead. 2CP auto-pass is fine, but i'd worry about the next turn. It's not always necessary.

4) By positioning Abaddon so he can do heroic intervention, I am assuming that it is part of your plan that your Rubrics will get charged? Is that wise?

Not a plan, but another part of turning the calculus away from taking certain actions against the unit. He's damn good in melee and as the unit walks in he'll be free to run and cause his own havoc.

So there is a local tourney this weekend that I am thinking of going to. 1500 pts. This is what I am thinking list wise. I am trying to keep it as close to WYSIWYG as possible, hence a few cultists having special weapons because that's what they have not because that's what I want.

Plan is I expect to go 2nd, but with this setup I get 9 CP, hoping that makes a big difference.


+ HQ +

Ahriman: Glamour of Tzeentch, Prescience, Temporal Manipulation

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch: Dark Matter Crystal, Flickering Flames, Gaze of Fate, Malefic talon, Wings

Sorcerer: Bolt pistol, Force stave, Infernal Gaze, Tzeentch's Firestorm

Sorcerer in Terminator Armour: 6. High Magister, Death Hex, Familiar, Force sword, Helm of the Third Eye, Inferno Combi-bolter, Warlord, Weaver of Fates

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists
. . 8x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. . Chaos Cultist w/ special weapon: Heavy stubber
. . Cultist Champion: Shotgun

Chaos Cultists
. . 8x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. . Chaos Cultist w/ special weapon: Flamer
. . Cultist Champion: Brutal assault weapon and Autopistol

Chaos Cultists: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. . Cultist Champion: Autogun

Rubric Marines
. . Aspiring Sorcerer: Force stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Weaver of Fates
. . 4x Rubric Marine w/ Inferno Boltgun: 4x Inferno boltgun

Rubric Marines
. . Aspiring Sorcerer: Force stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Weaver of Fates
. . 4x Rubric Marine w/ Inferno Boltgun: 4x Inferno boltgun

Rubric Marines
. . Aspiring Sorcerer: Force stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Weaver of Fates
. . 8x Rubric Marine w/ Inferno Boltgun: 8x Inferno boltgun
. . Rubric Marine w/ Soulreaper cannon: Soulreaper cannon

+ Heavy Support +

Defiler: Defiler scourge, Twin lascannon

Forgefiend: 2x Hades autocannons, Daemon jaws

Azuza001 wrote:
So there is a local tourney this weekend that I am thinking of going to. 1500 pts. This is what I am thinking list wise. I am trying to keep it as close to WYSIWYG as possible, hence a few cultists having special weapons because that's what they have not because that's what I want.

Plan is I expect to go 2nd, but with this setup I get 9 CP, hoping that makes a big difference.


+ HQ +

Ahriman: Glamour of Tzeentch, Prescience, Temporal Manipulation

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch: Dark Matter Crystal, Flickering Flames, Gaze of Fate, Malefic talon, Wings

Sorcerer: Bolt pistol, Force stave, Infernal Gaze, Tzeentch's Firestorm

Sorcerer in Terminator Armour: 6. High Magister, Death Hex, Familiar, Force sword, Helm of the Third Eye, Inferno Combi-bolter, Warlord, Weaver of Fates

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists
. . 8x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. . Chaos Cultist w/ special weapon: Heavy stubber
. . Cultist Champion: Shotgun

Chaos Cultists
. . 8x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. . Chaos Cultist w/ special weapon: Flamer
. . Cultist Champion: Brutal assault weapon and Autopistol

Chaos Cultists: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. . Cultist Champion: Autogun

Rubric Marines
. . Aspiring Sorcerer: Force stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Weaver of Fates
. . 4x Rubric Marine w/ Inferno Boltgun: 4x Inferno boltgun

Rubric Marines
. . Aspiring Sorcerer: Force stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Weaver of Fates
. . 4x Rubric Marine w/ Inferno Boltgun: 4x Inferno boltgun

Rubric Marines
. . Aspiring Sorcerer: Force stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Weaver of Fates
. . 8x Rubric Marine w/ Inferno Boltgun: 8x Inferno boltgun
. . Rubric Marine w/ Soulreaper cannon: Soulreaper cannon

+ Heavy Support +

Defiler: Defiler scourge, Twin lascannon

Forgefiend: 2x Hades autocannons, Daemon jaws

I like your list. It looks fluffy and might actually prove effective in a local tournament. Looking forward for your report on how it went.
Still, the more I look at it the more I think that 5 men rubric squads are a strange thing. Without the soulreaper they don't really pack any pucnch. Sure 9cp sounds good, but what can they actually do usefull?

Yeah, I see where you are coming from. I plan on using then as harassment units, working together on single targets. I lose a cannon and a bolter this way but gain 3 cp, I am hoping that's going to make up for the loss. Also I can use them as extra screeners for protection from alpha strikes, or objective holders. Finally I am hoping they get ignored a bit and can be used as a way to finish other squads off.

Still, alternately, I could turn them into 2 squads of 10, 1 squad of cultists, drop the extra sorcerer, and take a helldrake. I lose 3 cp's, but get a he'll turkey. Options :p

Azuza001 wrote:
Yeah, I see where you are coming from. I plan on using then as harassment units, working together on single targets. I lose a cannon and a bolter this way but gain 3 cp, I am hoping that's going to make up for the loss. Also I can use them as extra screeners for protection from alpha strikes, or objective holders. Finally I am hoping they get ignored a bit and can be used as a way to finish other squads off.

Still, alternately, I could turn them into 2 squads of 10, 1 squad of cultists, drop the extra sorcerer, and take a helldrake. I lose 3 cp's, but get a he'll turkey. Options :p

if it were me here, I'd take the turkey. You haven't got a ton of CP hoovers in your list (just the defiler really) and the drake is going to be a valuable supplement to your alpha strike and a distraction carnifex to protect your shooty gunline. (I am assuming the plan here is to crystal in the 10x rubrics? I'm not clear what the crystal is buying you in this list tbh)

The way I envision this list working is, DP deploys up aggressively screened by some cultists so he doesn't get shot, crystals in the 10x rubrics, Warptimes himself up the board, Termie sorc drops in to support the rubrics/aid the alpha, Heldrake moves up to support that action, and you've got a solid armored core of units in the enemy's face turn 1.

The rest of the army gets down to business doing their gunline thing. Ahriman buffs up the two shooty daemon engines, 5x rubrics act as supplementary psyker support (I'd have them casting Boon on Ahriman to try and get him the extra +1 to cast and the other squad casting Temporal to heal up any wounded daemon engines) and cultists screen.

Sounds solid to me. Doesn't seem like it'd overly hate going second except you'd likely lose a daemon engine and a half-ish in the vs gunline matchup (heldrake would be useful here as well as an immediate threat).

Azuza001 wrote:
So there is a local tourney this weekend that I am thinking of going to. 1500 pts. This is what I am thinking list wise. I am trying to keep it as close to WYSIWYG as possible, hence a few cultists having special weapons because that's what they have not because that's what I want.

Plan is I expect to go 2nd, but with this setup I get 9 CP, hoping that makes a big difference.


+ HQ +

Ahriman: Glamour of Tzeentch, Prescience, Temporal Manipulation

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch: Dark Matter Crystal, Flickering Flames, Gaze of Fate, Malefic talon, Wings

Sorcerer: Bolt pistol, Force stave, Infernal Gaze, Tzeentch's Firestorm

Sorcerer in Terminator Armour: 6. High Magister, Death Hex, Familiar, Force sword, Helm of the Third Eye, Inferno Combi-bolter, Warlord, Weaver of Fates

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists
. . 8x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. . Chaos Cultist w/ special weapon: Heavy stubber
. . Cultist Champion: Shotgun

Chaos Cultists
. . 8x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. . Chaos Cultist w/ special weapon: Flamer
. . Cultist Champion: Brutal assault weapon and Autopistol

Chaos Cultists: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. . Cultist Champion: Autogun

Rubric Marines
. . Aspiring Sorcerer: Force stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Weaver of Fates
. . 4x Rubric Marine w/ Inferno Boltgun: 4x Inferno boltgun

Rubric Marines
. . Aspiring Sorcerer: Force stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Weaver of Fates
. . 4x Rubric Marine w/ Inferno Boltgun: 4x Inferno boltgun

Rubric Marines
. . Aspiring Sorcerer: Force stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Weaver of Fates
. . 8x Rubric Marine w/ Inferno Boltgun: 8x Inferno boltgun
. . Rubric Marine w/ Soulreaper cannon: Soulreaper cannon

+ Heavy Support +

Defiler: Defiler scourge, Twin lascannon

Forgefiend: 2x Hades autocannons, Daemon jaws

I overall like this list. It's similar to what I'm building towards, though at 2k I run three 9 man Rubric squads and an two Daemon Princes.

It seems much of the current 40k conversation is about how to build and support the best "bomb" your codex can put forth, but I just don't feel like playing that way. For starters, if everyone seems to be doing it, everyone will be building lists with the ability to counter it. Everyone is learning to set up screens...everyone tries their best to protect their important units from an opponents "bomb" unit. As a personal anecdote, I find that I have just as much (and often times more) success when I start my large Death Company squad and supporting characters on the table rather than in reserves looking for the alpha deep strike. Being able to hold down an area, be a deterrent and or / counterpunch has really proven effective when someone is planning to, for example, shove Mortarion down my throat.

As for the benefits of having command points without a bomb unit to spend them on...there's still a lot of goodness to be had! For example:

- I plan to upgrade a Helbrute's twin heavy bolters with the Inferno Bolts stratagem.
- Cabalistic Focus WILL be used each and ever psychic phase to make sure I get off...whatever I decide needs getting off!
- Daemonforge is great, and the fact I'm fielding both a Forgefiend and Maulerfiend means I can (and probably will) use it TWICE each turn.
- Coruscating Beam is there....probably still won't ever use it, but it's there!

Out of breaktime...gotta run.

 Voidwraith wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
So there is a local tourney this weekend that I am thinking of going to. 1500 pts. This is what I am thinking list wise. I am trying to keep it as close to WYSIWYG as possible, hence a few cultists having special weapons because that's what they have not because that's what I want.

Plan is I expect to go 2nd, but with this setup I get 9 CP, hoping that makes a big difference.


+ HQ +

Ahriman: Glamour of Tzeentch, Prescience, Temporal Manipulation

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch: Dark Matter Crystal, Flickering Flames, Gaze of Fate, Malefic talon, Wings

Sorcerer: Bolt pistol, Force stave, Infernal Gaze, Tzeentch's Firestorm

Sorcerer in Terminator Armour: 6. High Magister, Death Hex, Familiar, Force sword, Helm of the Third Eye, Inferno Combi-bolter, Warlord, Weaver of Fates

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists
. . 8x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. . Chaos Cultist w/ special weapon: Heavy stubber
. . Cultist Champion: Shotgun

Chaos Cultists
. . 8x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. . Chaos Cultist w/ special weapon: Flamer
. . Cultist Champion: Brutal assault weapon and Autopistol

Chaos Cultists: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. . Cultist Champion: Autogun

Rubric Marines
. . Aspiring Sorcerer: Force stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Weaver of Fates
. . 4x Rubric Marine w/ Inferno Boltgun: 4x Inferno boltgun

Rubric Marines
. . Aspiring Sorcerer: Force stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Weaver of Fates
. . 4x Rubric Marine w/ Inferno Boltgun: 4x Inferno boltgun

Rubric Marines
. . Aspiring Sorcerer: Force stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Weaver of Fates
. . 8x Rubric Marine w/ Inferno Boltgun: 8x Inferno boltgun
. . Rubric Marine w/ Soulreaper cannon: Soulreaper cannon

+ Heavy Support +

Defiler: Defiler scourge, Twin lascannon

Forgefiend: 2x Hades autocannons, Daemon jaws

I overall like this list. It's similar to what I'm building towards, though at 2k I run three 9 man Rubric squads and an two Daemon Princes.

It seems much of the current 40k conversation is about how to build and support the best "bomb" your codex can put forth, but I just don't feel like playing that way. For starters, if everyone seems to be doing it, everyone will be building lists with the ability to counter it. Everyone is learning to set up screens...everyone tries their best to protect their important units from an opponents "bomb" unit. As a personal anecdote, I find that I have just as much (and often times more) success when I start my large Death Company squad and supporting characters on the table rather than in reserves looking for the alpha deep strike. Being able to hold down an area, be a deterrent and or / counterpunch has really proven effective when someone is planning to, for example, shove Mortarion down my throat.

As for the benefits of having command points without a bomb unit to spend them on...there's still a lot of goodness to be had! For example:

- I plan to upgrade a Helbrute's twin heavy bolters with the Inferno Bolts stratagem.
- Cabalistic Focus WILL be used each and ever psychic phase to make sure I get off...whatever I decide needs getting off!
- Daemonforge is great, and the fact I'm fielding both a Forgefiend and Maulerfiend means I can (and probably will) use it TWICE each turn.
- Coruscating Beam is there....probably still won't ever use it, but it's there!

Out of breaktime...gotta run.

I don't necessarily think you have to use a "bomb" to get actual murdering work done, but I also think it's a waste of one of the most reliable deep strikes in the game to not send something into the enemy's face turn 1. Sure, they can screen, but I find most screens tend to leave a 4" gap between the important units and the chaffline to prevent piling in and because at a certain point you do need to have some board presence with your actual army. With Warptime, it's usually possible to clear some of the screen with shooting and charge past them, into the enemy's more valuable stuff to tie it up.

I cant tell you how many games would have gone way worse for me if I hadn't not gotten shot by a couple onagers or 3 basilisks turn 1 because my Tzaangors had successfully piled their way into them. You can do the same thing with scarabs or cultists or a heldrake if you like, but more than trying to win the game outright with it you should be trying to start the fight on your terms.

My Tzaangors have a 1 turn lifespan and that's generally how I factor for them. They exist to give me a turn or 2 holding the enemy down while the gunline hits them.

The more I think about it the more I like the idea of helldrake / defiler / forgefiend. It may be a bit heavy on deamon vehicles and limit me to 6 cp, but it also has a lot of potential to cause Havoc in its own right.

Alternative list

+ HQ +

Ahriman: Glamour of Tzeentch, Prescience, Temporal Manipulation

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch: Dark Matter Crystal, Flickering Flames, Gaze of Fate, Malefic talon, Wings

Sorcerer in Terminator Armour: 6. High Magister, Death Hex, Familiar, Force sword, Helm of the Third Eye, Inferno Combi-bolter, Warlord, Weaver of Fates

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists
. . 8x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. . Chaos Cultist w/ special weapon: Heavy stubber
. . Cultist Champion: Shotgun

Chaos Cultists
. . 8x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. . Chaos Cultist w/ special weapon: Flamer
. . Cultist Champion: Brutal assault weapon and Autopistol

Chaos Cultists: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. . Cultist Champion: Autogun

Rubric Marines
. . Aspiring Sorcerer: Force stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Weaver of Fates
. . 8x Rubric Marine w/ Inferno Boltgun: 8x Inferno boltgun
. . Rubric Marine w/ Soulreaper cannon: Soulreaper cannon

+ Fast Attack +

Chaos Spawn: Chaos Spawn

Chaos Spawn: Chaos Spawn

Chaos Spawn: Chaos Spawn

Chaos Spawn: Chaos Spawn

+ Heavy Support +

Defiler: Defiler scourge, Twin lascannon

Forgefiend: 2x Hades autocannons, Daemon jaws

+ Flyer +

Heldrake: Baleflamer, Heldrake claws

Exactly 1500 pts. 7 command points.

Got to love my chaos spawn. Lol.

I also wanted to run a Defiler, but after a week of looking at pics and paintjobs, I found that I have no interest at all to purchase / paint that model and have found new respect for the good ol' Heldrake.

They're obviously two totally different animals, so it's not as if one easily replaces the other, but I look forward to painting and learning to play with the Heldrake.

GW, please give us a better Defiler model!

 Voidwraith wrote:
I also wanted to run a Defiler, but after a week of looking at pics and paintjobs, I found that I have no interest at all to purchase / paint that model and have found new respect for the good ol' Heldrake.

They're obviously two totally different animals, so it's not as if one easily replaces the other, but I look forward to painting and learning to play with the Heldrake.

GW, please give us a better Defiler model!

I think the upcoming Knight Armiger represents a great chance to kitbash a much cooler Defiler. You could shoulder mount the BC like an old school Battletech Mech and convert the rest of the weapons onto the arms. Add chaos bits and greenstuff to flavour and I think it will look awesome. That's my current plan for a Defiler anyway, I also can't stand the current model.

 Voidwraith wrote:
I also wanted to run a Defiler, but after a week of looking at pics and paintjobs, I found that I have no interest at all to purchase / paint that model and have found new respect for the good ol' Heldrake.

They're obviously two totally different animals, so it's not as if one easily replaces the other, but I look forward to painting and learning to play with the Heldrake.

GW, please give us a better Defiler model!

Bwa ha ha, I just finished my own defiler and spent the entire time reveling in how deliciously goofy it is. I love the dumpsterclaws and the silly scourge bit. But I suppose that's me, with my weird love and appreciation for any kind of art where someone really, honestly tried their hardest to do something and ended up failing spectacularly. I love crappy B movies and MST3k type stuff, and I love the sheer silliness of some sculptor imagining that the defiler would be somehow "menacing" if he just slapped big steaknives all over it and weird grimacing daemon faces.

Giant Enemy Crab for life!

If you haven't, try looking at one without the tiny little baby head on top. Then focus on the chest face make it more prominent with the paint job, it looks less doofy.

SilverAlien wrote:
If you haven't, try looking at one without the tiny little baby head on top. Then focus on the chest face make it more prominent with the paint job, it looks less doofy.

Oh yeah, I just took that weird top mask off mine, and left it as a little robot nubbin' so it looks like a camera. I also left the big daemon face on the front off, since I figured it'd be easier to make it merge with the rest of my thousand sons without it.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:
I also wanted to run a Defiler, but after a week of looking at pics and paintjobs, I found that I have no interest at all to purchase / paint that model and have found new respect for the good ol' Heldrake.

They're obviously two totally different animals, so it's not as if one easily replaces the other, but I look forward to painting and learning to play with the Heldrake.

GW, please give us a better Defiler model!

Bwa ha ha, I just finished my own defiler and spent the entire time reveling in how deliciously goofy it is. I love the dumpsterclaws and the silly scourge bit. But I suppose that's me, with my weird love and appreciation for any kind of art where someone really, honestly tried their hardest to do something and ended up failing spectacularly. I love crappy B movies and MST3k type stuff, and I love the sheer silliness of some sculptor imagining that the defiler would be somehow "menacing" if he just slapped big steaknives all over it and weird grimacing daemon faces.

Giant Enemy Crab for life!

This comment has made me take a long look in the mirror, and...well, I guess I've become somewhat of a model snob. It shouldn't have been a surprise, as Thousand Sons will be my first ever Chaos faction and it's largely because the handful of TS specific models are just freakin' amazing.

I'll seek therapy and strive to stop looking down my nose at older more goofy models.

The defiler is a super dumb model. I don't use flamers of Tzeench for the same reason. I mean what the h*ll?

But it is not all a waste. There was someone on dakka that had put defiler-claws on a deff-dread and it looked super cool.