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2018/02/21 16:05:46
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
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pismakron wrote:The defiler is a super dumb model. I don't use flamers of Tzeench for the same reason. I mean what the h*ll?
But it is not all a waste. There was someone on dakka that had put defiler-claws on a deff-dread and it looked super cool.
I specifically combed ebay for these flamers because the new ones were too serious looking. http://kofler.dot.at/40k/units/Tzeentch_Flamers_1.gif
Two kinds of people in the world, I guess.
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"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!" |
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2018/02/21 16:08:02
Subject: Re:All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Voidwraith wrote:the_scotsman wrote: Voidwraith wrote:I also wanted to run a Defiler, but after a week of looking at pics and paintjobs, I found that I have no interest at all to purchase / paint that model and have found new respect for the good ol' Heldrake.
They're obviously two totally different animals, so it's not as if one easily replaces the other, but I look forward to painting and learning to play with the Heldrake.
GW, please give us a better Defiler model!
Bwa ha ha, I just finished my own defiler and spent the entire time reveling in how deliciously goofy it is. I love the dumpsterclaws and the silly scourge bit. But I suppose that's me, with my weird love and appreciation for any kind of art where someone really, honestly tried their hardest to do something and ended up failing spectacularly. I love crappy B movies and MST3k type stuff, and I love the sheer silliness of some sculptor imagining that the defiler would be somehow "menacing" if he just slapped big steaknives all over it and weird grimacing daemon faces.
Giant Enemy Crab for life!
This comment has made me take a long look in the mirror, and...well, I guess I've become somewhat of a model snob. It shouldn't have been a surprise, as Thousand Sons will be my first ever Chaos faction and it's largely because the handful of TS specific models are just freakin' amazing.
I'll seek therapy and strive to stop looking down my nose at older more goofy models.
Rubrics, Exalteds, Scarabs all look super great. Personally I really like Tzaangors also, allthough I like them
better with pistols and chainswords which isn't such a great option game-wise. I am not such a big fan of the floating discs either, but the defiler is much worse. Automatically Appended Next Post: the_scotsman wrote:pismakron wrote:The defiler is a super dumb model. I don't use flamers of Tzeench for the same reason. I mean what the h*ll?
But it is not all a waste. There was someone on dakka that had put defiler-claws on a deff-dread and it looked super cool.
I specifically combed ebay for these flamers because the new ones were too serious looking. http://kofler.dot.at/40k/units/Tzeentch_Flamers_1.gif
Two kinds of people in the world, I guess.
Haha, those are hilarious. They remind me of the old Tyranid range which is a sight to behold on a gaming table. The 2nd edition Ork Range certainly had its charm as well.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/21 16:13:51
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2018/02/21 16:56:23
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
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Flamers have probably undergone more changes than any unit i know of aesthetically.
First, they were mushroom headed creatures that looked like some kind of old my Little pony villain from back when the ponies were all obese and on weird sedatives.
Then, someone said "no, we need something more menacing. Nothing screams "flame creature" like a bird muppet with doggie chew toy hands"
Then they went full on-the-nose with them and made them entirely on fire.
Then they changed to a design similar to tje current one which is more like a sock puppet with a little bit of fire, but with gums on the mouths drawing attention to that and away from the fire.
Finally we got the plastic kit, the hotly anticipated "piece de resistance" of the sock puppet wizard sleeve facemonster, with advanced CAD design in service of free floating tentacle fandanglers, a truly premium experience for the connoisseur of flamers on the cutting edge of customizability. Provided of course you wanted a weirdly ripped hunchbacked fire spraying mouth critter.
So think of that next time you look at a flamer. That's not just one guys bad design. That's a technological perfection of an homage of an improvement of a re-imagining of someone's bad design.
On an unrelated note, who's excited to go see Disney's Joss Whedon's Star Wars: 2 Hutt 2 Slugrious, a Star Wars Story, the Jabba The Hurt Standalone Reboot?
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"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!" |
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2018/02/21 17:19:49
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
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Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch
Some dusty place in Texas
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the_scotsman wrote:pismakron wrote:The defiler is a super dumb model. I don't use flamers of Tzeench for the same reason. I mean what the h*ll?
But it is not all a waste. There was someone on dakka that had put defiler-claws on a deff-dread and it looked super cool.
I specifically combed ebay for these flamers because the new ones were too serious looking. http://kofler.dot.at/40k/units/Tzeentch_Flamers_1.gif
Two kinds of people in the world, I guess.
But how else will I throw in the occasional "Craaab People" chant to go with my "All is Dust" chant?
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Warhammer 40,000 Armies:
Warmachine/Hordes Armies:
Protectorate, Legion, Skorne
"Something always fires that light that gets in your eyes" |
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2018/02/21 17:23:36
Subject: Re:All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
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Longtime Dakkanaut
*Current meatspace coordinates redacted*
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I started a thread in painting and modelling to discuss alternate figs and kitbashed for the Defiler. It'll save us model snobs from cluttering up the tactics thread.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/751376.page
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He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all. |
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2018/02/21 19:08:52
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Do you really think that Heldrake can be efficient in the 8th edition?
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2018/02/21 19:18:55
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
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Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch
Some dusty place in Texas
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I think the Heldrake is a great harasser/character hunter. The only times I've regretted bringing one is when I misplay it. Locking down a unit in CC to shut them down for a turn can be really handy, plus it drops scouts/rangers really well with the baleflamer.
It wont devastate a list single handedly like in 6th, but it can be a real pain in the butt for opponents.
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Warhammer 40,000 Armies:
Warmachine/Hordes Armies:
Protectorate, Legion, Skorne
"Something always fires that light that gets in your eyes" |
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2018/02/21 19:26:21
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Swiftblade wrote:I think the Heldrake is a great harasser/character hunter. The only times I've regretted bringing one is when I misplay it. Locking down a unit in CC to shut them down for a turn can be really handy, plus it drops scouts/rangers really well with the baleflamer.
It wont devastate a list single handedly like in 6th, but it can be a real pain in the butt for opponents.
Agreed! Last game I played with my helldrake it killed a trygon prime one-on-one and finished off the Swarmlord in close combat, these guys are terrific harassment units that can move fast enough and hit hard enough that if an opportunity does present itself then it can get there and make the difference between a critical win or loss.
Baleflamers are just terrific. Str 6, -2 Ap, 2 dmg? At 18"? Heck yes. Go ahead and charge me. Or don't. Or I will charge you, then after back out and touch you again.
They wont do a lot vs swarms of units but against t6 or less multi wound units can get hurt hard.
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2018/02/21 19:41:21
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
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Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot
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Azuza001 wrote: Swiftblade wrote:I think the Heldrake is a great harasser/character hunter. The only times I've regretted bringing one is when I misplay it. Locking down a unit in CC to shut them down for a turn can be really handy, plus it drops scouts/rangers really well with the baleflamer.
It wont devastate a list single handedly like in 6th, but it can be a real pain in the butt for opponents.
Agreed! Last game I played with my helldrake it killed a trygon prime one-on-one and finished off the Swarmlord in close combat, these guys are terrific harassment units that can move fast enough and hit hard enough that if an opportunity does present itself then it can get there and make the difference between a critical win or loss.
Baleflamers are just terrific. Str 6, -2 Ap, 2 dmg? At 18"? Heck yes. Go ahead and charge me. Or don't. Or I will charge you, then after back out and touch you again.
They wont do a lot vs swarms of units but against t6 or less multi wound units can get hurt hard.
Exactly...I haven't used one yet, but after totally ignoring it for a good while, I finally realized "this thing moves 30 inches." It feels a tad expensive, but it can basically be anywhere you need something to be, and movement as the game goes on is priceless.
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2018/02/21 19:52:32
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
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Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch
Some dusty place in Texas
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He pairs well with the big boy Magnus, if you have points to spare. If Magnus warptimes himself they'll both get around the same distance up the board, and Heldrake can lock up threats to the big guy while Magnus smashes everything.
I will say it's tricky to use, if it gets misplayed it's gonna do very little in a game. So it won't work in every situation or against every list.
Can the warpflame stratagem affect heldrakes? Im not looking at my Codex and can't remember.
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Warhammer 40,000 Armies:
Warmachine/Hordes Armies:
Protectorate, Legion, Skorne
"Something always fires that light that gets in your eyes" |
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2018/02/21 19:58:55
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
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Swiftblade wrote:He pairs well with the big boy Magnus, if you have points to spare. If Magnus warptimes himself they'll both get around the same distance up the board, and Heldrake can lock up threats to the big guy while Magnus smashes everything.
I will say it's tricky to use, if it gets misplayed it's gonna do very little in a game. So it won't work in every situation or against every list.
Can the warpflame stratagem affect heldrakes? Im not looking at my Codex and can't remember.
No, for reasons that I found pretty obvious (unlike why Helbrutes aren't allowed to use that, lol).
Defiler/Maulerfiend are still the king kahunas of warpflame gargoyles. 3" goes a long way when you have a big giant glorious crab body to measure from.
Now we just need someone to start sweeping the tournament circuit with defilers with their legs modeled completely splayed out for maximum 'goylage.
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"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!" |
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2018/02/21 20:06:03
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
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Regular Dakkanaut
Bay area, CA
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Is it okay to use Phenix aos model for helldrake in tournament?
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2018/02/21 20:42:30
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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That a question for your tournament organizer.
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2018/02/21 20:49:33
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Combine it with parts of the heldrake and bam, conversion that still uses the heldrake.
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2018/02/21 20:56:37
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
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Fresh-Faced New User
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hm.. maybe I'd give it a go. I also had an idea of casting diabolic str on a heldrake as he passes by a deep striking terminator sorc. 5 attacks with str 9 look much better to me
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2018/02/22 00:04:20
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Interesting! I think diabolical st pairs exceptionally well with maulerfeinds which is my usual target as well as the daemon engine stratagem. Haven’t thought to use it on the heldrake!
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2018/02/22 01:44:47
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
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Regular Dakkanaut
Bay area, CA
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So actually with heldrake does not have -1 to hit right? I think with T7 and 12W it can be very dead soon :(
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2018/02/22 02:00:45
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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ArtyomTrityak wrote:So actually with heldrake does not have -1 to hit right? I think with T7 and 12W it can be very dead soon :(
Right, but it does have a 5++, heals, and is not often a huge priority so it can go "unnoticed" for a while.
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2018/02/22 04:12:01
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Plus there is always Temporal Manipulation, get another d3 heals on it. I have had mine down to 2 wounds before and it still ends the game at 7 after it gets a heal cast on it and natural healing.
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2018/02/22 10:40:57
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
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Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch
Netherlands
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Honestly I don't think a single flamer or the chicken's claws are good enough for the opponent to fear it. It's basically a 180ish pt unit with a purpose of a first turn charge and locking something down. Is this good enough to justify its points cost? Maybe. But if so, I don't think we should be spending more resources on it. It's not going to win games, and there are much more important units which need the stratagem and psychic support.
On a best case scenario for a charging helldrake with both diabolical strength and daemonforge, we get 5 rerollable attacks at str 9, which is great, but then at -1 ap and d3 wounds which is really lackluster. Best case for the helldrake, it gets hits and wounds with all its attacks against a serious 3+ target. Then the enemy saves half of those and still gets to suffer 2d3 damage or so. And that's after buffing and spending CP's on your 180 pt unit.
Me no like lemonade.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/22 10:44:41
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2018/02/22 12:27:08
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
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topaxygouroun i wrote:Honestly I don't think a single flamer or the chicken's claws are good enough for the opponent to fear it. It's basically a 180ish pt unit with a purpose of a first turn charge and locking something down. Is this good enough to justify its points cost? Maybe. But if so, I don't think we should be spending more resources on it. It's not going to win games, and there are much more important units which need the stratagem and psychic support.
On a best case scenario for a charging helldrake with both diabolical strength and daemonforge, we get 5 rerollable attacks at str 9, which is great, but then at -1 ap and d3 wounds which is really lackluster. Best case for the helldrake, it gets hits and wounds with all its attacks against a serious 3+ target. Then the enemy saves half of those and still gets to suffer 2d3 damage or so. And that's after buffing and spending CP's on your 180 pt unit.
Me no like lemonade.
Yeah, the drake is gonna be primarily support for a deep striking posse, either helping a unit of tzaangors chew through a crunchier section of the enemy's front line, or supporting or distracting for a unit of SOTs that you don't want to get focused on.
its primary strength is how good it is at distracting because if the enemy leaves it at even a single wound, it still shoots the baleflamer at full effectiveness. I view it the same way I view my Hellhound for my IG, just with the added bonus that it moves a squillion inches and has some kind of melee attack.
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"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!" |
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2018/02/22 12:31:27
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
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Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot
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topaxygouroun i wrote:Honestly I don't think a single flamer or the chicken's claws are good enough for the opponent to fear it. It's basically a 180ish pt unit with a purpose of a first turn charge and locking something down. Is this good enough to justify its points cost? Maybe. But if so, I don't think we should be spending more resources on it. It's not going to win games, and there are much more important units which need the stratagem and psychic support.
On a best case scenario for a charging helldrake with both diabolical strength and daemonforge, we get 5 rerollable attacks at str 9, which is great, but then at -1 ap and d3 wounds which is really lackluster. Best case for the helldrake, it gets hits and wounds with all its attacks against a serious 3+ target. Then the enemy saves half of those and still gets to suffer 2d3 damage or so. And that's after buffing and spending CP's on your 180 pt unit.
Me no like lemonade.
I agree with everything you said here, apart from the "it's not going to win games" part. A unit that can move 30" and has enough firepower and attacks to dig out / harrass objective holders, as well as decent enough durability to force your opponent to prioritize it higher than he'd like to remove it will do A LOT of work towards actually WINNING the game. Especially as the game goes on...if it sticks around and is still moving 20 or 30 inches, it'll be there when it matters...when you suddenly need to get halfway across the board to get that objective card you just drew.
It all can't be about alpha strikes...
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2018/02/22 15:25:15
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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My initial purpose for the Heldrake was to tie up a big expensive unit and force them to fall back. Now most armies have ways around that and a lot of them have naturally built abilities that let them fall back and still shoot or charge...
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2018/02/22 16:35:27
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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nintura wrote:My initial purpose for the Heldrake was to tie up a big expensive unit and force them to fall back. Now most armies have ways around that and a lot of them have naturally built abilities that let them fall back and still shoot or charge...
On some units - not all. You just have to be conscious of the targets and if they spend a CP to do that then it's still a win. Ultramarines are a friggin' pain, but then the baleflamer does a number on their Primaris...as long as you're able and willing to reroll the number of shots.
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2018/02/22 17:41:11
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
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Regular Dakkanaut
Bay area, CA
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I would go with defilers instead but i do not like how they look like :(
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2018/02/22 19:27:40
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I may be weird but I like the way the defiler looks. However there are so many conversions out there that make it an amazing model to work with.
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2018/02/22 20:37:58
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
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Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch
Netherlands
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Azuza001 wrote:
I may be weird but I like the way the defiler looks. However there are so many conversions out there that make it an amazing model to work with.
Craaaaaab peeeeopleeee.
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2018/02/22 22:37:11
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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Voidwraith wrote:topaxygouroun i wrote:Honestly I don't think a single flamer or the chicken's claws are good enough for the opponent to fear it. It's basically a 180ish pt unit with a purpose of a first turn charge and locking something down. Is this good enough to justify its points cost? Maybe. But if so, I don't think we should be spending more resources on it. It's not going to win games, and there are much more important units which need the stratagem and psychic support.
On a best case scenario for a charging helldrake with both diabolical strength and daemonforge, we get 5 rerollable attacks at str 9, which is great, but then at -1 ap and d3 wounds which is really lackluster. Best case for the helldrake, it gets hits and wounds with all its attacks against a serious 3+ target. Then the enemy saves half of those and still gets to suffer 2d3 damage or so. And that's after buffing and spending CP's on your 180 pt unit.
Me no like lemonade.
I agree with everything you said here, apart from the "it's not going to win games" part. A unit that can move 30" and has enough firepower and attacks to dig out / harrass objective holders, as well as decent enough durability to force your opponent to prioritize it higher than he'd like to remove it will do A LOT of work towards actually WINNING the game. Especially as the game goes on...if it sticks around and is still moving 20 or 30 inches, it'll be there when it matters...when you suddenly need to get halfway across the board to get that objective card you just drew.
It all can't be about alpha strikes...
The Heldrake is a flier, so it can't score objectives.
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2018/02/22 22:47:40
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Azuza001 wrote:
I may be weird but I like the way the defiler looks. However there are so many conversions out there that make it an amazing model to work with.
any links?
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2018/02/23 00:52:50
Subject: Re:All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
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Longtime Dakkanaut
*Current meatspace coordinates redacted*
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Google is your friend. I like this one:
Also, apropos of nothing in particular, this fig was also made with Defiler legs and a Stormtalon. Very cool.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also this one, that's mostly based on the Defiler chassis and spare parts and is frickin' awesome.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/23 01:30:50
He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all. |
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