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Interesting, but personally I would not take malefic lords. Not a Forge world fan personally, I prefer to stick with gws stuff and not go into Forge world. Their stuff just never seems.... As balanced as normal gw stuff is. Assuming you can call what gw does as Balance.

It's fine to opt not to use them. I'd just say that using FW/GW as balance arguments is a false yard stick.

FW didn't give us Guilliman, Riptide Wings, Conscript spam, etc.

You give and take a bit with unbalance, and most units between the two are medium-low power level.

I don't disagree with those points, but I also don't use any of those units / tactics because of the same reason.

Forge world has always been to me a kind of "elite" model side of gw. But that's all I have ever seen them as, their models are just flat out amazing. And to be fair it's not Forge world's fault that mal lords are so good. That's gw's and the smite issue. However it is their fault the mal lords are so cheap, they priced it what they did and gave it the specs they did.

Either way congratulations on the win.

Azuza001 wrote:
I don't disagree with those points, but I also don't use any of those units / tactics because of the same reason.

Forge world has always been to me a kind of "elite" model side of gw. But that's all I have ever seen them as, their models are just flat out amazing. And to be fair it's not Forge world's fault that mal lords are so good. That's gw's and the smite issue. However it is their fault the mal lords are so cheap, they priced it what they did and gave it the specs they did.

Either way congratulations on the win.

This is a competitive thread and he is talking about a tournament list: shouldn't we leave our prejudice on which units are acceptable at the door? Making the rules is on games workshop.

Also, I really don't see much room for raising points on malefic lord without making them objectively worse than other cheap psykers, I suppose they could go up to 40. Part of the problem is that 2/3 of the psychic spells available to chaos daemons (the army fueled by psychic energy...) are utter trash. I feel like they front loaded the tyranids/eldar/daemons so we can fix smite without ruining psychic armies.

That being said, malefic lords really aren't too bad when you compare them to some other stuff like space marine re-roll everything + invuln auras. Sure having 5 smites for 150pts is fantastic, but so is having 8 assault cannons and las cannons that re-roll misses, failed wound saves, and are mounted on vehicles with 4+ invuln. Let's also not forget that Daemons have some of the best HQ options so malefic lords are definitely competing for space. This will only become more true when our codex comes out and (I assume) the greater daemons and heralds get a bump.


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On a similar note, how do you guys think they will deal with smite? I'm thinking it could afford to go up to a 7 on the psychic table.

Again I am not trying to be negative here or knock on his list. Malefic lords are a very cheap way to access psychic for chaos, they do it very well and as I have said in a different thread I don't see the issue as much the lords fault but smites fault. I really hope chapter approved gives us new "base" powers that we can replace smite with just for more variety and versatilities sake.

In a serious tournament you take the best of what you can and go for the win, I also don't disagree to that. I said personally I would not have taken them, not that no one should take them or that they are bad. I personally like Heralds for my cheaper psychic chaos choice for example. Heralds of Nurgle are more resilient, have the ability to smite and to heal Nurgle Deamons with fleshy abundance, and are only 70pts. A mal lord is 30 points, so you get 2 for 1 Herald. Which is better for your army is based on your army. In his, mal lords were obviously the choice because he won "almost no contest". Again, congratulations to Cephalobeard, I always like to see a case where our army wins.

This isn't a discussion about if mal lords are good or not, at this point they are silly good. 30 points gets you a charecter with 4+ invulnerable save, 4 wounds, smite and a few good options for spells (warp Flux is particularly nasty), and it can " hulk out" if it survived a perils of the warp attack, point me to another unit that gets stronger if it gets a perils attack on it? Mal lords are amazing, which goes back to my original point of they feel unbalanced and I personally won't run them. There is a reason many hobby stores and tournaments say "no Forge world". They are not as balanced as normal gw rules (again take it with salt, girly man isn't exactly balanced either for example).

I guess the real question is would Cephalobeards list have done so well if he couldn't take malefic lords? I know this is a tactics thread but at the same time not talking about alternative options for specific game play styles if something does change can't hurt. And that's what I am trying to say. I may not be saying it well, but it should be discussed at some point.

putting aside Cephalobeards' malific units, the true power of his list, defensively, is the number of characters on the table. He has a bullet magnet in Magnus and then at least 17 characters on the table.

He can force your target priority, while letting his brimmies dominate the obj scoring game.

So to answer your question, would he be as effective w/o spamming the lord? IMO absolutely because it's apparent he's not using the lord as a crutch... just a supplemental smite source (which Tzeentch itself can effectively spam too).

Exactly, Whembly.

Malefic lords EIGHTY POINTS DDDDDDDDDDDD

I immediatly thought of this:

GW: hm.. how should we handle this...
Testers: ah you need to be careful and not overnerf them beca---
GW:

Not a Daemon unit.

Would rather take a Herald now I guess

Lol right, my buddy is like "good smite is OP"... But at 80 points... why does this unit even exist now?

Can anyone think of a logical reason to put it in any army list ever?

Good thing I'm a daemons player haha!

Trancefate wrote:
Lol right, my buddy is like "good smite is OP"... But at 80 points... why does this unit even exist now?

Can anyone think of a logical reason to put it in any army list ever?

Good thing I'm a daemons player haha!

I guess I would still take one in a renegade list. Which I suppose is where they best belong. Problem is the other hq choices aren't all the interesting either. Blech.

GW has proven they're willing to swing a sledgehammer where only a jewelers hammer is necessary. We've been shown they're going to listen to the angry mob, even though the move is stupid.

This being said, we can very likely expect some or part of the following:

Changeling Nerf
Horrors rework, making them even worse somehow
Further smite changes


That's be likely, but it will be bad. This, to me, will unfortunately smash Tzeentch into the dirt. My next goal would be to move into Slaanesh, which has so little representation it's likely they receive the larger, if no the largest, buffs from the codex.

Which I'm all for.

Anyone have any ideas of what they think we might see/hope we may see?

I think it might be my fault. I sent some feedback, asking why the ML is 40pts but 4PL. I was semi-interested in trying this Smite spam business, but wasn't going to spend 4PL on them. Now they've got a price tag commensurate with 4PL, but for 4PL or 2pts more I could take a Seeker as a Herald on Steed. Not really much contest there!

 Cephalobeard wrote:
GW has proven they're willing to swing a sledgehammer where only a jewelers hammer is necessary. We've been shown they're going to listen to the angry mob, even though the move is stupid.

This being said, we can very likely expect some or part of the following:

Changeling Nerf
Horrors rework, making them even worse somehow
Further smite changes


That's be likely, but it will be bad. This, to me, will unfortunately smash Tzeentch into the dirt. My next goal would be to move into Slaanesh, which has so little representation it's likely they receive the larger, if no the largest, buffs from the codex.

Which I'm all for.

Anyone have any ideas of what they think we might see/hope we may see?

I have very similar feelings and have already began my search for a new army, sadly I'm not a fan of the other God's aesthetic really, but I'm hoping for a second wind with the codex, nids got a lot of little things that made them better so I'm hoping for similar treatment.

Ecdain wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
GW has proven they're willing to swing a sledgehammer where only a jewelers hammer is necessary. We've been shown they're going to listen to the angry mob, even though the move is stupid.

This being said, we can very likely expect some or part of the following:

Changeling Nerf
Horrors rework, making them even worse somehow
Further smite changes


That's be likely, but it will be bad. This, to me, will unfortunately smash Tzeentch into the dirt. My next goal would be to move into Slaanesh, which has so little representation it's likely they receive the larger, if no the largest, buffs from the codex.

Which I'm all for.

Anyone have any ideas of what they think we might see/hope we may see?

I have very similar feelings and have already began my search for a new army, sadly I'm not a fan of the other God's aesthetic really, but I'm hoping for a second wind with the codex, nids got a lot of little things that made them better so I'm hoping for similar treatment.

Trust me, I don't want to abandon Tzeentch. I have custom dice, shirts, everything. If GW smashes me into Oblivion, though, I won't have much of a choice as I play Daemons as my competitive army.

I'm hoping that nurgle gets some of the mortal wound shenanigans that DG can throw around. No reason why the DG should be stinkier than Nurgle daemons.
Greater daemons really need love, all 4. I think that a lot of our codex hinges on if we get deep strike in any way back, or ability to summon easier. Heralds getting re-worked buffs, as +1s is pretty crap for nurgle and tzeentch.

I've been a nurgle daemon player for a long time, but I havent ran them outside of all daemon engine epidemius list since 8th dropped. DG are tons of fun, I hope daemons end up just as cool.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
I'm hoping that nurgle gets some of the mortal wound shenanigans that DG can throw around. No reason why the DG should be stinkier than Nurgle daemons.
Greater daemons really need love, all 4. I think that a lot of our codex hinges on if we get deep strike in any way back, or ability to summon easier. Heralds getting re-worked buffs, as +1s is pretty crap for nurgle and tzeentch.

I've been a nurgle daemon player for a long time, but I havent ran them outside of all daemon engine epidemius list since 8th dropped. DG are tons of fun, I hope daemons end up just as cool.

I would love to hear anything you have to report on the Epidemius list, my main army is Word Bearers of Ghalmek and it’s something I want to try with Fiends, Decimators, Heldrakes, and Cult of Destruction

Was hoping Tzeentch would get a cost reduction on heralds to make them a viable alternative for a smite army, but seeing the nerfs to malific I'm guessing GW ain't gonna allow such strategies because it makes people upset.

I'm hoping that Tzeentch gets something like flickering fire from 7th that can be cast multiple times in matched play. We pay for Psykers that can cast 2 or more powers, but can't make use of them properly in matched play.

Short question
Is it correct that a CSM daemon prince does buff daemons that are part of another detachment? Does it matter if the daemons are from another fraction?

Nora wrote:
Short question
Is it correct that a CSM daemon prince does buff daemons that are part of another detachment? Does it matter if the daemons are from another fraction?

That's correct; the Daemon Prince's aura looks for models that either have the <Legion> keyword or have both the Daemon and the appropriate god's keyword. So a Slaanesh Daemon Prince from the Word Bearer Legion will give the bonus to any friendly Word Bearer models within range and also any friendly Slaanesh Daemon models within range. Hope this helps.

Aelyn wrote:

Nora wrote:
Short question
Is it correct that a CSM daemon prince does buff daemons that are part of another detachment? Does it matter if the daemons are from another fraction?

That's correct; the Daemon Prince's aura looks for models that either have the <Legion> keyword or have both the Daemon and the appropriate god's keyword. So a Slaanesh Daemon Prince from the Word Bearer Legion will give the bonus to any friendly Word Bearer models within range and also any friendly Slaanesh Daemon models within range. Hope this helps.

It would even apply to a Black Legion Slaaneshi Obliterator unit, if you really like soup lists

Hmm. With Voice of Lorgar (+3 aura range), that’s actually a pretty interesting gimmick...

Man, I didn't think they'd hike up Zarakynel by THAT much...

Any chance of them making her a little better to compensate? I mean, she's good as is, and could've done with a small points increase, but come on...

I just hope the Daemons codex will come with strong options/rules that are about as good as CSM. There are those of us who want to run a Daemon or Mostly-Daemon army.

Giant Spawn up to 150, as well.

RIP Aetaos at 1500.

What a wild ride.

What the hell are FW thinking.


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#breathes # ok Uraka got a 20 pt cut, which is good.
The Spined chaos beast got a 20 pt cut, and is the same as the spawn, so both are equally awful now I guess.


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Why on earth have plague toads and pox riders gone up when plague drones came down


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Samus being cheaper is good. Maybe usable now.. was anyone using Angrath? Back at 888 again. Why couldn't auto be 999 that would be fair .

All these messages and no links...
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2017/11/20/chapter-approved-leak-compilation/

Anyway... WHAT WERE THEY THINKING. Again. Instead of balancing stuff, they remove it completelly. Would any of the big 4 see any play? Zara wasn't good and got a HUGE increase. Bird is dead as dead can be. Scabby was already "I think he's worth his points". Now.... eh....

Pink Horrors are still worthless at 7 ppm, right? I think they'd have to be 5 to be worth considering.

..Maybe.. Fw know something we don't know.. and the new daemon codex has bonuses that make big monsters really good.

.. I can dream.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
..Maybe.. Fw know something we don't know.. and the new daemon codex has bonuses that make big monsters really good.

.. I can dream.

You are talking about invisibility?