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The Salt Mine wrote:
As a 1ksons player I am very jealous of that blessed bolts stratagem and I have ap2 bolters already. Cant imagine how other sm/csm players feel about it.

I think it's pretty comparable in power to Veterans of the Long War so I don't think we can be too upset about it. Loyalists will complain either way so that's irrelevant. :p

The Salt Mine wrote:
As a 1ksons player I am very jealous of that blessed bolts stratagem and I have ap2 bolters already. Cant imagine how other sm/csm players feel about it.

Yeah, can't help compare our Infernal Bolts stratagem. :Yes please spend 1 CP to make a single combi-bolter on a vehicle -2 AP and no damage buff...

 Arachnofiend wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:
As a 1ksons player I am very jealous of that blessed bolts stratagem and I have ap2 bolters already. Cant imagine how other sm/csm players feel about it.

I think it's pretty comparable in power to Veterans of the Long War so I don't think we can be too upset about it. Loyalists will complain either way so that's irrelevant. :p

Yeah, VOTLW is great. But a D2 strat for Rubrics and Scarabs for 1CP would be a great and flavorful way to get those units back on the table and make them useful. Smite spam rewards min sized units, whereas this would reward larger units since you could stack a ton of strats.

I mean I still feel like part of the problem is that you can use Veterans of the Long War on units that aren't Veterans of the Long War. Assuming for a moment a world where Rubrics and SOT's have their appropriate points cost you'd still probably use Vets on Tzaangors. If it can't be used on Tzaangors then those marine units suddenly look a lot better.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I mean I still feel like part of the problem is that you can use Veterans of the Long War on units that aren't Veterans of the Long War. Assuming for a moment a world where Rubrics and SOT's have their appropriate points cost you'd still probably use Vets on Tzaangors. If it can't be used on Tzaangors then those marine units suddenly look a lot better.

I mean sure, it's good on them. But it's not enough to make them viable. If the rumored points changes are true, we might see 10 man scarab squads be worth using with it. they would certainly be strong. But they also get hard countered by lots of stuff thats already common on the tabletop (plasma, knight weapons.) And Rubrics need more if they are gonna be worth it, even at 16pts.

I think that the complaint from Imperial players goes something like this:

 All Imperial Players wrote:
Wait, you’re telling me those renegade guardsmen are veterans of the long war?

If there’s one thing that basically all loyal and heretic marine players share it’s that our marines are rubbish. This is because they can’t do any damage to anything.

Mandragola wrote:
I think that the complaint from Imperial players goes something like this:

 All Imperial Players wrote:
Wait, you’re telling me those renegade guardsmen are veterans of the long war?

If there’s one thing that basically all loyal and heretic marine players share it’s that our marines are rubbish. This is because they can’t do any damage to anything.

Haha yeah that's certainly true. Cultists are the best target for VotLW in most cases because of their squad size. If chaos marines were good, it'd be good on them.

There are many arguments that cultists shouldn't have heretic astartes or be able to use VotLW. I agree overall, but not for the usual reason. Denying cultists VotLW because they aren't veterans is just taking the fluff name of the strat literally. If the strat was renamed to, say, Fury of Chaos, then should cultists be able to use it? The real issue is that there needs to be a distinction between marine and non-marine units. That doesn't currently exist, and that causes problems. But at the end of the day, the biggest problem is that marines are bad.

Any update on points?

Lol if and when GW finally abandons mini marines you'll be better off just running your old army with sisters rules. Brothers of Battle anyone? Sisters already save points by not paying for the useless stats normal marines have, with the focus on the holy trinity of weapons they are going to wreck regular marine armies even more.

Mmm I see, so Primaris get to turn their overpriced, one shot Stalker bolt rifles into (not) super useful sniper weapons for 1 CP (+1 point for Indomitus Crusade detachment) while Sisters get Rapid fire 2 D2 Stalkers for 1 CP?
Thanks god it's a beta codex. Please don't get it (it's OPness) fly under the radar.

 DanielFM wrote:
Mmm I see, so Primaris get to turn their overpriced, one shot Stalker bolt rifles into (not) super useful sniper weapons for 1 CP (+1 point for Indomitus Crusade detachment) while Sisters get Rapid fire 2 D2 Stalkers for 1 CP?
Thanks god it's a beta codex. Please don't get it (it's OPness) fly under the radar.

It is 3 CP to turn Stalker Bolt Rifles into Sniper Rifles. 1 CP for Indomitus Crusaders. 1 CP for Indomitus Veterans. 1 CP for Target Sighted.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 DanielFM wrote:
Mmm I see, so Primaris get to turn their overpriced, one shot Stalker bolt rifles into (not) super useful sniper weapons for 1 CP (+1 point for Indomitus Crusade detachment) while Sisters get Rapid fire 2 D2 Stalkers for 1 CP?
Thanks god it's a beta codex. Please don't get it (it's OPness) fly under the radar.

It is 3 CP to turn Stalker Bolt Rifles into Sniper Rifles. 1 CP for Indomitus Crusaders. 1 CP for Indomitus Veterans. 1 CP for Target Sighted.

I mean that's not all you get for your 3cp though. Attacks and leadership are useful, and you have the trait/relic one time boosts which could be quite powerful.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 DanielFM wrote:
Mmm I see, so Primaris get to turn their overpriced, one shot Stalker bolt rifles into (not) super useful sniper weapons for 1 CP (+1 point for Indomitus Crusade detachment) while Sisters get Rapid fire 2 D2 Stalkers for 1 CP?
Thanks god it's a beta codex. Please don't get it (it's OPness) fly under the radar.

It is 3 CP to turn Stalker Bolt Rifles into Sniper Rifles. 1 CP for Indomitus Crusaders. 1 CP for Indomitus Veterans. 1 CP for Target Sighted.

Yeah, the problem is not the Sisters being OP, it is the Stalkers being terrible.

Stalkers are super losers. Even if they were free I wouldn't take them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 DanielFM wrote:
Mmm I see, so Primaris get to turn their overpriced, one shot Stalker bolt rifles into (not) super useful sniper weapons for 1 CP (+1 point for Indomitus Crusade detachment) while Sisters get Rapid fire 2 D2 Stalkers for 1 CP?
Thanks god it's a beta codex. Please don't get it (it's OPness) fly under the radar.

It is 3 CP to turn Stalker Bolt Rifles into Sniper Rifles. 1 CP for Indomitus Crusaders. 1 CP for Indomitus Veterans. 1 CP for Target Sighted.

Yeah, the problem is not the Sisters being OP, it is the Stalkers being terrible.

Actually both those statements are true.

Yeah, they definitely should be free. Or Heavy 2 and 1 pt. But definitely not Heavy 1 and 2 pts.

And ultimately, if you are after the +1 Attack and +1 Ld on your SBR squad, you aren't understanding the point of them being snipers. So that Stratagem is a waste.

Feeling my fallen to slaanesh sisters army idea coming to mind again. Don't rush out and buy loads of storm bolters that strat won't make it to the full release... 1cp is crazy for what 25 s4 ap-2 2dmg that's like 7 wounds off a rhino from one round of shooting from 5 models lol

Edit only at 12" hmmm maybe not that great and a bit situational on the target.... no fun for primaris on the end of it

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Yeah, they definitely should be free. Or Heavy 2 and 1 pt. But definitely not Heavy 1 and 2 pts.

And ultimately, if you are after the +1 Attack and +1 Ld on your SBR squad, you aren't understanding the point of them being snipers. So that Stratagem is a waste.

To be honest its a situation of fluff>rules.
There are ways to make Intercessors "work". Saying throw your CP into them to make them slightly better in assault (but still not great) and have an ability they should have got base isn't one of them.
But maybe the other gun versions are much better.
1CP: "Full auto, your auto bolt rifles become assault 6 for this phase." (Is this good enough? For 3 CP? Probably not no.)

Now now, let’s not all get our knickers in a hyperbolic twist about the Sisters Stormbolter Stratagem. As usual, many of you are looking at the Stratagem in a vacuum or from the perspective of a another army that works in a mechanically different fashion.

Sisters have no access to Plasma or Lascannons. Their only ranged anti-tank is the Multi-Melta - considered one of the worst weapons in the Imperial arsenal - and their only close anti-tank is the Meltagun, which is considered a downgrade from a Plasma Gun. What this Stratagem is turn one unit of Dominions’ Stormbolters - a maximum of 5 weapons - into super-Plasma Guns for 1CP per turn. It allows a squad to kill half of a Rhino or 1.5 Custodes. It essentially lets an army short of versatile anti-heavy firepower temporarily turn one glass cannon unit into a very good anti-heavy unit. Doing so also means that Dominion unit isn’t loading up with Melta, which with the Rule of 3 in place harms the army’s anti-tank arsenal.

As ever, above all, context matters.

Their only anti tank is a multi melts? What about the d6 s8 -4 d3dmg exorcist missile launcher?! On a tank 30pts less than a Las pred with better toughness

 Latro_ wrote:
Their only anti tank is a multi melts? What about the d6 s8 -4 d3dmg exorcist missile launcher?! On a tank 30pts less than a Las pred with better toughness

It has less than half the firepower of a laspred, in the index at least. Similar to a lot of the early index tanks (like the original leman russ) in terms of being undergunned.

CA may change that.

kombatwombat wrote:
Now now, let’s not all get our knickers in a hyperbolic twist about the Sisters Stormbolter Stratagem. As usual, many of you are looking at the Stratagem in a vacuum or from the perspective of a another army that works in a mechanically different fashion.

Sisters have no access to Plasma or Lascannons. Their only ranged anti-tank is the Multi-Melta - considered one of the worst weapons in the Imperial arsenal - and their only close anti-tank is the Meltagun, which is considered a downgrade from a Plasma Gun. What this Stratagem is turn one unit of Dominions’ Stormbolters - a maximum of 5 weapons - into super-Plasma Guns for 1CP per turn. It allows a squad to kill half of a Rhino or 1.5 Custodes. It essentially lets an army short of versatile anti-heavy firepower temporarily turn one glass cannon unit into a very good anti-heavy unit. Doing so also means that Dominion unit isn’t loading up with Melta, which with the Rule of 3 in place harms the army’s anti-tank arsenal.

As ever, above all, context matters.

I don' t think we have enough information on the new sisters to make any kind of claim as to what their anti-tank options will be. They are getting an entirely new model line ala Deathguard and we all saw how much that changed the Deathguard up. They may well end up with new weapons we haven't seen before.

 Latro_ wrote:
Their only anti tank is a multi melts? What about the d6 s8 -4 d3dmg exorcist missile launcher?! On a tank 30pts less than a Las pred with better toughness

I should clarify, the only ranged anti-tank available to infantry (and hence not easily removed by your opponent’s anti-tank - ask Necrons about that one).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Salt Mine wrote:
I don' t think we have enough information on the new sisters to make any kind of claim as to what their anti-tank options will be. They are getting an entirely new model line ala Deathguard and we all saw how much that changed the Deathguard up. They may well end up with new weapons we haven't seen before.

True but it’s a safe bet that Sororitas infantry won’t be giving up the Holy Trinity. If we end up with Lascannon/Plasma Sisters I’ll eat my words but I’m pretty confident.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

There are many arguments that cultists shouldn't have heretic astartes or be able to use VotLW. I agree overall, but not for the usual reason. Denying cultists VotLW because they aren't veterans is just taking the fluff name of the strat literally. If the strat was renamed to, say, Fury of Chaos, then should cultists be able to use it?

While we are on the subject VotLW should switch names with DttFE. Then names would make sense.

 Ysclyth wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

There are many arguments that cultists shouldn't have heretic astartes or be able to use VotLW. I agree overall, but not for the usual reason. Denying cultists VotLW because they aren't veterans is just taking the fluff name of the strat literally. If the strat was renamed to, say, Fury of Chaos, then should cultists be able to use it?

While we are on the subject VotLW should switch names with DttFE. Then names would make sense.

In Killteam, VOTLW only works on keyword Imperium targets, which also makes more sense thematically.

I was very surprised that they didn't switch it over during the 2nd Big FAQ.

Not that I'm complaining...

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

 Ysclyth wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

There are many arguments that cultists shouldn't have heretic astartes or be able to use VotLW. I agree overall, but not for the usual reason. Denying cultists VotLW because they aren't veterans is just taking the fluff name of the strat literally. If the strat was renamed to, say, Fury of Chaos, then should cultists be able to use it?

While we are on the subject VotLW should switch names with DttFE. Then names would make sense.

In Killteam, VOTLW only works on keyword Imperium targets, which also makes more sense thematically.

I was very surprised that they didn't switch it over during the 2nd Big FAQ.

Not that I'm complaining...

I agree with the name change.
To be fair, Chaos needs VotLW to be viable at the moment. If it only worked against imperium, they'd be in a lot of trouble in other matchups.

I like the blessed bolt stratagem. Might be worth taking a 5 storm bolters dominion squad.
I hope we get the same stratagem for flamers too!

Sisters don’t get x/y/z?

That’s a bad argument for both balance, and in general; they’re Imperial - they get access to the best of EVERYTHING.
Want Lascannons? Take a detachment of Guardsman/heavy weapons teams.

Never mind that my Ork walkers are now outclassed by a Penitence engine. Fight twice, free 5++, re-rolling to hits?

Cmon now.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

 Ysclyth wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

There are many arguments that cultists shouldn't have heretic astartes or be able to use VotLW. I agree overall, but not for the usual reason. Denying cultists VotLW because they aren't veterans is just taking the fluff name of the strat literally. If the strat was renamed to, say, Fury of Chaos, then should cultists be able to use it?

While we are on the subject VotLW should switch names with DttFE. Then names would make sense.

In Killteam, VOTLW only works on keyword Imperium targets, which also makes more sense thematically.

I was very surprised that they didn't switch it over during the 2nd Big FAQ.

Not that I'm complaining...

I agree with the name change.
To be fair, Chaos needs VotLW to be viable at the moment. If it only worked against imperium, they'd be in a lot of trouble in other matchups.

Chaos isn’t viable anyway. It’s Codex: Cultists and Demon Princes. Every other unit is basically trash because GW doesn’t understand that durability in 8th doesn’t matter, only chaff + CP batteries to abuse stratagems.

 Kirasu wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

 Ysclyth wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

There are many arguments that cultists shouldn't have heretic astartes or be able to use VotLW. I agree overall, but not for the usual reason. Denying cultists VotLW because they aren't veterans is just taking the fluff name of the strat literally. If the strat was renamed to, say, Fury of Chaos, then should cultists be able to use it?

While we are on the subject VotLW should switch names with DttFE. Then names would make sense.

In Killteam, VOTLW only works on keyword Imperium targets, which also makes more sense thematically.

I was very surprised that they didn't switch it over during the 2nd Big FAQ.

Not that I'm complaining...

I agree with the name change.
To be fair, Chaos needs VotLW to be viable at the moment. If it only worked against imperium, they'd be in a lot of trouble in other matchups.

Chaos isn’t viable anyway. It’s Codex: Cultists and Demon Princes. Every other unit is basically trash because GW doesn’t understand that durability in 8th doesn’t matter, only chaff + CP batteries to abuse stratagems.

If we got some other Chaos Codex that was viable in other ways, then I'd be fine with it. But I wouldn't want it changed right now.

Although, overall, I'm not big on these stratagems or rules that only effect specific matchups unless the opponent has something corresponding. It messes up balance. For example, Cadia has anti chaos strats, but chaos doesn't have anything specific vs Guard. It just breaks that one matchup for no reason. And all chaos has Anti Loyalist stuff, but loyalist anti chaos options are more limited if my memory serves.

 DanielFM wrote:
Mmm I see, so Primaris get to turn their overpriced, one shot Stalker bolt rifles into (not) super useful sniper weapons for 1 CP (+1 point for Indomitus Crusade detachment) while Sisters get Rapid fire 2 D2 Stalkers for 1 CP?
Thanks god it's a beta codex. Please don't get it (it's OPness) fly under the radar.

So we're just totally ignoring every piece of context surrounding a rule in favor whining about rule that seems strong on paper, regardless of what units can use ot, the limitations on those units or any of the myriad of other things that make this a game?

Here let me try 'Whaaaaa, primaris get AP -4 2 damage guns! That's so OP, the need the nerfs!!!!'.

'So wait, EVERY Grey Knight can cause mortal wounds AND they can deepstrike!?!?? THEY NEED THE NERFS!!!'

Am I doing it right?