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The book is curious to me. I guess I can't figure out why you'd
try to make a full skirmish wargame when the book makes the
actions so much more like it would be interesting as a warband
or squad level game. Perhaps the closest to the MI experience
was playing Tribes with the three suits of armor and whatnot.

I just can't imagine how you go from that book to the Mongoose game.

Can someone who's played explain?

I think it goes more like:

Book --> Movie (which is then disavowed by all, despite being a great commentary on American military industrial society) --> Cartoon --> Andy Chambers needs a job -->SST game.

You missed a step in your reasoning. I'll list them and let you figure out where you errored.

Step 1. Book.
Step 2. Movie that made lots and lots of money.
Step 3. Game.

The game is based more on the Roughnecks cartoon series, which was based on the movie, which resembles the book hardly at all.

Ah, I see.

So that's the thing then. A Starship Troopers game would be more
characterful, and therefore, less profitable.

There was, I believe, a board game from Avalon Hill in the '70s based on the novel itself, that was more in keeping with Heinlein's presentation. That game's been out of print for some time, though.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/670

People may criticise some of the Mongoose SST minis, but I'm pretty glad they don't look like the fatties on the cover of that game.

I think the Mongoose SST game was very playable and had good mechanics. And once they added in the Cougar & Grizzly battlesuits, it had much more of a Heinlein flavor.

I'm waiting to see how it changes when they release SST:Evo before I decide if I'm going to keep playing.

I've got the Avalon Hill boxed game. Very good game, played it a hell of a lot...

The novel is actually a political treaty on facism. As noted the game is based on the movie. In the novel the soldiers wear uber suits of power armor and are spread out about a mile apart from each other when attacking in formation. The soldiers have super jump packs that can cover far distances very quickly. Each soldier is fitted with nuclear missiles and very nasty flamers that can take out the occupants of an entire city block. I would love to see someone come up with a game that could closely follow along the lines of the novel. It would not be anything like Starship Troopers the game or even WH40k.

- Greenie

Posted By Green Bloater on 04/19/2007 3:47 PM
The novel is actually a political treaty on facism. As noted the game is based on the movie. In the novel the soldiers wear uber suits of power armor and are spread out about a mile apart from each other when attacking in formation. The soldiers have super jump packs that can cover far distances very quickly. Each soldier is fitted with nuclear missiles and very nasty flamers that can take out the occupants of an entire city block. I would love to see someone come up with a game that could closely follow along the lines of the novel. It would not be anything like Starship Troopers the game or even WH40k.

- Greenie

... Mechwarrior?

not really.

It could be Mechwarrior if you were restricted to Elemental size mechs. And had the overheating rule thrown out. And if it had been a thinly veiled treatise on fascism, instead of a nearly straight ripoff of Dune and Risk.

You're thinking too much about it, Felix. Roll the dice and say your mantra. Furniture polish...Furniture polish...

I had the Avalon Hill game but unfortunately lost it by leaving it in my student halls of residence.

There's a really old game called "Star Soldier" by SPI, out of print since early 1980s probably, in which you move around super-powered troops with flight packs, various weapons such as neutron bombs, ECM and so on. A very interesting game that uses simultaneous movement.

Another interesting super soldier game I've got buried somewhere gives you one man but he has weapons that can actually alter the landscape. For example, you can use the heat beam to create a pool of lava and plunge the enemy in. He can use an ice ray to cool the lava back to solid ground. That was a pretty cool game but I can't remember the name of it.

Another one worth a look is the Steve Jackson infantry game based on the Ogre/GEV series. It had powered armour, jump packs and so on, and forces where about a squad to a small platoon per side, with single man counters. It was a map and counter type game like all these others.

Any map and counter game could have its rules adapted to use with miniatures.

Posted By Green Bloater on 04/19/2007 3:47 PM
The novel is actually a political treaty on facism.

This old chestnut?

 

It’s still horseapples.  Heinlein never espoused Fascism.  He glorified the military a bit, and speculated on the idea of military service for full citizenship (inspired primarily by the Swiss).  Kind of how traditional sci-fi always took an idea or speculation about a possible future and built upon it.  Paul Verhoeven, who made the movie, and who publically admitted to having never finished the book, made a movie which distorted the book's concepts into a more Fascist form.

For a thorough debunking of this myth, and some nice rips on Verhoeven for his dumping on Heinlein's grave, go to:

http://www.kentaurus.com/troopers.htm

--------------

On the gaming subject, I have the Avalon Hill boxed game, though I’ve only played the first scenario or two.  It’s pretty darn cool.

 

I played a demo game of SST and quite liked the mechanics.  The units in the game are more based on the movie and cartoon than the book, though I understand the later addition of bigger suits gave more of the book’s feel.

There is absolutely nothing Fascist about the book Starship Troopers. Belief in that is either a misunderstanding of what Fascism is, a result of never having actually read the book, or the result of having a particular political viewpoint before having read the book.

Heinlein often wrote that his stories were based upon how he percieved the world might be in the future if the sociopolitical climate of the times continued unchecked without change. Troopers was published in 1957 during the middle of the Eisenhour (sp?) glory years of the cold war and America is great and the military is the best! Compare what he wrote in Troopers to what is written in Stranger in a Strange Land (published in the early 70's). You wouldn't believe the same person wrote the book if you just went by the theme.

Now, the idea in Troopers that many construe as "Fascist" is the idea that military service is required in order to have the right to vote. By that basis, both Israel and Switzerland are Fascist countries, since military service is mandatory in both countries. However, where this falls down is the fact that in Heinlein's fictitious future, the military service was voluntary, and the only "penalty" for not serving was lack of the right to vote. The idea behind this policy was simply this: you don't get to even partially dictate the course of the country's policies if you do not prove that the well being of the country is more important that your own self interest.

I actually wrote a fairly extensive paper on this novel in my 20th Century American Novel class when I was getting my literature degree, which was kinda fun considering some of the left leaning political views of most literature professors in major universities. I was actually surprised I got an A on it

Sal.

Your dates are a little off; he was writing Stranger first, and paused in the middle to write Troopers (1959); Stranger was finished (and published) in 1961.

The most interesting thing about Heinlein is trying to figure out what (if anything!) he actually believed in. Some of his autobiographical stuff is helpful in this regard, but mostly in a negative proof sort of way: "No, I didn't believe in this. No, I wasn't espousing that. No, I don't think you should start a religion based on Stranger in a Strange Land." (Contrast with, oh, say Hubbard.)

Thanks for clearing this stuff up for me, guys.

Way off topic but I always thought the more 'politco' book that Heinlen wrote was The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. Been awhile since I read it but the book drips with political and economic comentary (much more so the SST).

And yeah, people throw around facism without knowing the full definition of the word. It's why the term islamo-facism always cracks me up.

As far as the topic, I refused to play SST the game because it favored the movie and cartoon over the book. Although it sounds like a decent game system, I just couldn't bring myself to purchase the the thing.

Funny how people get all bent when you say that Heinlein wrote a novel eschewing a fascist regime in the near future. Israel and Switzerland really have nothing to do with the novel, but then again many people consider Isreal to be a fascist country. Do I think his novel was a political treaty - most certainly. After the first couple of chapters the main character spends the rest of the time explaining how their system works in great detail. The movie is really nothing like the book to be honest, so again you are comparing apples to oranges if you use this argument to support your case.

- Greenie

Simply stated, a fascist government has one class of citizens that is considered more valuable to another based upon service. It is possible to be both a republic and a fascist state. One class lives in a republic while the other class lives in a fascist state. Does this sound familar to what was espoused in the novel?

- Greenie

Umm...no. At best, that's a gross oversimplification; at worst, a blatant mischaracterization.

Setting aside, for the moment, the forests of trees which have died so people could argue what defines "fascism" (see, e.g., here), I'll follow you so far as to agree that Fascist governments tend to be anti-individualistic.


See, here's where you wander off into the same trap as the essay Ragnar linked earlier exposed - Starship Troopers is about ultimate PERSONAL responsibility.

Pls give examples to support your case. Thanks!

- Greenie

The point of the political concept expressed in the book is that the only people who can be trusted with authority to make decisions for the country as a whole(the vote) are those who have demonstrated through action that they are willing to put the good of the country as a whole above their personal self-interest.

If you want to be able to vote, you volunteer. They find a duty for you, which may be military or may not, though the non-military options are deliberately also made difficult and potentially dangerous. You sign up for two years or "as much longer as may be required", and you're not allowed to vote until you're out. Everyone 18+ who is mentally competent to understand the service oath is guaranteed the right to sign up and serve their term. Everyone who doesn't want to serve gets all the same rights and protections as those who do, except the right to vote. The book puts the voting population at about 3% on Earth, and 80% on Iskander.

It's not Fascism. Facism, according to Encarta, is a dictatorial movement: any movement, ideology, or attitude that favors dictatorial government, centralized control of private enterprise, repression of all opposition, and extreme nationalism

The government in ST is not described as dictatorial, there is no indication of centralized control of private enterprise (the only indication is to the opposite- Johnny's dad is not a voter and owns a very successful business), all opposition in the book is either ignored or responded to with carefully-reasoned explanations and arguments, and nationalism seems to be virtually nil.

If it were a Fascist government they'd limit who could serve, they'd suppress opposition to the government, and no doubt the military would actually be allowed to vote so they could actually wield direct political power.

Check out that site I linked earlier. It's a great analysis.

I'm not saying I agree with the book's idea, but then neither did Heinlein. At worst he might have leaned that way when he wrote it, when we were in the middle of the cold war and Congress had just voted to stop nuclear testing, which he saw as potential suicide for our country and for the long term hopes of Democracy over dictatorial Communism.

Mann, dunno how you missed it but...it's a trap! Green likes to be commended on his trolling I suppose. Grats Green.

Remember that only 1% of those that volunteer for military service actually pass the boot camp. It makes a difference.

- Greenie

Go read the article I linked Bloatie. He's already answered this one too.

1% of Mobile Infantry recruits pass their boot camp.

Do you judge the whole US Military (and every other form of civil service) by the standards of the SEALs?

It's also shown in the book that guys who physically can't hack it but refuse to quit are given alternate jobs.  One guy shown winds up a cook on a troop transport.

Even the cook fought in the wars.

- Greenie

Not the Navy cooks- unless you count being on a warship in combat as fighting. In the MI, everybody fights, from the chaplain to the cook to the Old Man's catamite.

How long has it been since you read Starship Troopers, Greenie?

The novel stressed being responsible for your own actions. The reason voting was limited to those who had performed some sort of government service is that these people would value their vote and therefore treat it more responsibly. That is why the "service" inevitably was hard and dangerous. He was attempting to show the flaws in direct democracy by comparison. He avidly hated socialism, where the state owns and runs everything, and communism, where the state controls everything. Needless to say those views don't sit well with most Hollywood writers and directors.