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Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 Kirasu wrote:
durability in 8th doesn’t matter

Knight

Feminism is good. Racism is bad.
Sabbat-pattern helmets best helmets.
MER IL ET FOU!!! 
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor




fe40k wrote:
Sisters don’t get x/y/z?

That’s a bad argument for both balance, and in general; they’re Imperial - they get access to the best of EVERYTHING.
Want Lascannons? Take a detachment of Guardsman/heavy weapons teams.

Never mind that my Ork walkers are now outclassed by a Penitence engine. Fight twice, free 5++, re-rolling to hits?

Cmon now.


That's ridiculous. Think about what you're actually saying for ONE SECOND. 'Oh, that army can take everything, all they have to do is not play that army!' Hey, did you know Orkz are fine because they can just play Guard instead?

You're salty over nothing because an army you have NO IDEA about that has taken MASSIVE nerfs you wouldn't even understand got a unit that is MAYBE slightly better than a subpar unit in a totally unrelated codex and 1 solid but limited stratagem that looks amazing on paper if you don't know anything about the army.

And so what if they're better? If they're pointed correctly, who cares? There's not even a fluff reason penitent engines couldn't be better 1v1 than Ork walkers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Kirasu wrote:
durability in 8th doesn’t matter

Knight


Word.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/07 03:35:07


2500pts
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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Steelcity

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Kirasu wrote:
durability in 8th doesn’t matter

Knight


Knight armies are a joke without the alpha strike of CP batteries + stratagems. One unit of new Ork tankbustas deletes a knight fairly easily every turn, as do dark reapers. The only reason they're viable is because of guard detachments. If they don't do an absurd amount of damage in turn 1 then it's often game over for a Castellan.

The base unit durability of a knight is not great for it's cost, but CPs help a lot. Also they're the extreme end of the unit spectrum so bravo for picking a possible exception (as they do not make the rule). We were talking about power armor.

Keeper of the DomBox
Warhammer Armies - Click to see galleries of fully painted armies
32,000, 19,000, Renegades - 10,000 , 7,500,  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




ERJAK wrote:
 DanielFM wrote:
Mmm I see, so Primaris get to turn their overpriced, one shot Stalker bolt rifles into (not) super useful sniper weapons for 1 CP (+1 point for Indomitus Crusade detachment) while Sisters get Rapid fire 2 D2 Stalkers for 1 CP?
Thanks god it's a beta codex. Please don't get it (it's OPness) fly under the radar.


So we're just totally ignoring every piece of context surrounding a rule in favor whining about rule that seems strong on paper, regardless of what units can use ot, the limitations on those units or any of the myriad of other things that make this a game?

Here let me try 'Whaaaaa, primaris get AP -4 2 damage guns! That's so OP, the need the nerfs!!!!'.

'So wait, EVERY Grey Knight can cause mortal wounds AND they can deepstrike!?!?? THEY NEED THE NERFS!!!'

Am I doing it right?

You want context? Okay.

3CP and 100 points for five S4 AP-2 D1 shots with a mortal wound on a 6 to wound...
OR
1CP and 60 points for 10-20 S4 AP-2 D2 shots...

How's that context for ya?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kirasu wrote:
 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Kirasu wrote:
durability in 8th doesn’t matter

Knight


Knight armies are a joke without the alpha strike of CP batteries + stratagems. One unit of new Ork tankbustas deletes a knight fairly easily every turn, as do dark reapers. The only reason they're viable is because of guard detachments. If they don't do an absurd amount of damage in turn 1 then it's often game over for a Castellan.

The base unit durability of a knight is not great for it's cost, but CPs help a lot. Also they're the extreme end of the unit spectrum so bravo for picking a possible exception (as they do not make the rule). We were talking about power armor.

Exactly. The CP Farm nerf made it so you basically have to choose between your Knights or your Slamguinus missiles.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/07 04:34:06


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Denison, Iowa

I wouldn't necessarily say that toughness doesn't matter. There are certain stats that break that a little. The difference between toughness 2 and 3 hardly matters at all. 3 to 4 is somewhat better. Going from toughness 4 to 5 is a huge jump though. Most power fists don't wound you on a 2+, and the most numerous troop and weapon in the game drops to a 5+ to wound you.
   
Made in gb
Numberless Necron Warrior




 cuda1179 wrote:
I wouldn't necessarily say that toughness doesn't matter. There are certain stats that break that a little. The difference between toughness 2 and 3 hardly matters at all. 3 to 4 is somewhat better. Going from toughness 4 to 5 is a huge jump though. Most power fists don't wound you on a 2+, and the most numerous troop and weapon in the game drops to a 5+ to wound you.


Yeah, it's mainly the mid to high toughnesses that suffered. T5 to T6 usually means bugger all and T7 ain't much better.

Toughness isn't the thing hurting elites though, it's the AP system.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You want context? Okay.

3CP and 100 points for five S4 AP-2 D1 shots with a mortal wound on a 6 to wound...
OR
1CP and 60 points for 10-20 S4 AP-2 D2 shots...

How's that context for ya?


Feel like I’m about to stick my head above the parapet entering into this particular pissing contest, but here goes...

You’re not looking at context, you’re taking two units in separate vacuums and comparing them. Context would involve something like looking at what tools their respective factions have available and what role each unit fills...




...at which point you might have to concede that a specialist kill-unit in an army with no access to plasma or any equivalent, equally effective ranged anti-elite firepower that forgoes its critical role of providing anti-tank for the army to gain temporary access to a Plasma Gun analogue, probably should have more firepower than the basic objective-holding troop unit of an army with the most prolific access to Plasma and a wide and varied arsenal of ranged heavy weaponry?

No, that’s crazy talk...
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran




 Kirasu wrote:
GW doesn’t understand that durability in 8th doesn’t matter,.


Which is why nobody in their right mind would ever pick the Prophets of Flesh or Alaitoc traits over others. Why waste your army trait on improving something that doesn't matter, right?
   
Made in lt
Mysterious Techpriest






kombatwombat wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You want context? Okay.

3CP and 100 points for five S4 AP-2 D1 shots with a mortal wound on a 6 to wound...
OR
1CP and 60 points for 10-20 S4 AP-2 D2 shots...

How's that context for ya?


Feel like I’m about to stick my head above the parapet entering into this particular pissing contest, but here goes...

You’re not looking at context, you’re taking two units in separate vacuums and comparing them. Context would involve something like looking at what tools their respective factions have available and what role each unit fills...




...at which point you might have to concede that a specialist kill-unit in an army with no access to plasma or any equivalent, equally effective ranged anti-elite firepower that forgoes its critical role of providing anti-tank for the army to gain temporary access to a Plasma Gun analogue, probably should have more firepower than the basic objective-holding troop unit of an army with the most prolific access to Plasma and a wide and varied arsenal of ranged heavy weaponry?

No, that’s crazy talk...


They're both the same faction: Imperium

Mathammer(primarily Chaos Daemons, Adeptus Mechanicus, Necrons and Orks) https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mhwa-d77ztppXP9ZUQxur9HewqDTFZ6k
12k pts Daemons
5k pts Orks
5k pts AdMech
3k pts Necrons  
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




 rvd1ofakind wrote:

They're both the same faction: Imperium


I’m gonna call that a non-answer. Faction identity is a thing.

‘I play Custodes. Long range firepower is a challenge.’
‘You should replace your Dreadnought with some Guard artillery, that’ll fix it.’
‘Great. I’m struggling with board control, though.’
‘You should replace some of your Guardians with Infantry Squads, that’ll fix it.’
‘Ok cool. I’m finding it hard to kill big stuff now.’
‘You should replace your Terminators with a Knight Castellan.’
‘Fair enough. Wait, now I’m struggling to spot the Custodes in my army. I didn’t want to play Knights and Gurd, I wanted to play Custodes.’
‘You can take Jetbike Captains.’
‘This isn’t the game I signed up for...’
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




kombatwombat wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You want context? Okay.

3CP and 100 points for five S4 AP-2 D1 shots with a mortal wound on a 6 to wound...
OR
1CP and 60 points for 10-20 S4 AP-2 D2 shots...

How's that context for ya?


Feel like I’m about to stick my head above the parapet entering into this particular pissing contest, but here goes...

You’re not looking at context, you’re taking two units in separate vacuums and comparing them. Context would involve something like looking at what tools their respective factions have available and what role each unit fills...




...at which point you might have to concede that a specialist kill-unit in an army with no access to plasma or any equivalent, equally effective ranged anti-elite firepower that forgoes its critical role of providing anti-tank for the army to gain temporary access to a Plasma Gun analogue, probably should have more firepower than the basic objective-holding troop unit of an army with the most prolific access to Plasma and a wide and varied arsenal of ranged heavy weaponry?

No, that’s crazy talk...

You already know the tools those armies have, and they're basically the same tools.

Also the army with the most prolific access to Plasma is Imperial Guard. I love you implied Marines though. It was so funny when you showed you haven't an idea what you're talking about!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
kombatwombat wrote:
 rvd1ofakind wrote:

They're both the same faction: Imperium


I’m gonna call that a non-answer. Faction identity is a thing.

‘I play Custodes. Long range firepower is a challenge.’
‘You should replace your Dreadnought with some Guard artillery, that’ll fix it.’
‘Great. I’m struggling with board control, though.’
‘You should replace some of your Guardians with Infantry Squads, that’ll fix it.’
‘Ok cool. I’m finding it hard to kill big stuff now.’
‘You should replace your Terminators with a Knight Castellan.’
‘Fair enough. Wait, now I’m struggling to spot the Custodes in my army. I didn’t want to play Knights and Gurd, I wanted to play Custodes.’
‘You can take Jetbike Captains.’
‘This isn’t the game I signed up for...’

Custodes, like Knights, were designed for allies in mind. It sucks, but tough.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/07 07:57:31


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Denison, Iowa

I think at this point everything Imperial is designed to have allies in mind.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You already know the tools those armies have, and they're basically the same tools.

Also the army with the most prolific access to Plasma is Imperial Guard. I love you implied Marines though. It was so funny when you showed you haven't an idea what you're talking about!


Spoken like someone who has no idea about Sisters of Battle. But yeah thanks for that, I’ll go pack my Celestians into a Land Raider, and my Repentia into a Stormraven, then I’ll use Lascannons for anti-tank, plasma for general duties, Grav for anti-elites, Terminators for shock assault duties and bikes to tie up the flanks. Cos y’know, we have basically the same tools as Marines.

Also, a quick canter through the Guard Codex shows me 18 datasheets that can take plasma. An equally brief run through the Marine Codex shows me 31 datasheets that can take plasma.

If you’re going to be an ass, at least have the dignity to be right.

Custodes, like Knights, were designed for allies in mind. It sucks, but tough.


Kinda missed the point of what I was saying, but anyway - mono Custodes work just fine up to and including a mildly competitive meta. When the Talons IA book drops they’ll be a fully fledged faction.
   
Made in us
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




The Void

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Custodes, like Knights, were designed for allies in mind. It sucks, but tough.


Apparently "designed for allies in mind" means "most of their units suck and we won't bother trying to fix it because they can just ally Guard in"?

Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
   
Made in lt
Mysterious Techpriest






 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Custodes, like Knights, were designed for allies in mind. It sucks, but tough.


Apparently "designed for allies in mind" means "most of their units suck and we won't bother trying to fix it because they can just ally Guard in"?


Yes. Isn't that great?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
kombatwombat wrote:
 rvd1ofakind wrote:

They're both the same faction: Imperium


I’m gonna call that a non-answer. Faction identity is a thing.

‘I play Custodes. Long range firepower is a challenge.’
‘You should replace your Dreadnought with some Guard artillery, that’ll fix it.’
‘Great. I’m struggling with board control, though.’
‘You should replace some of your Guardians with Infantry Squads, that’ll fix it.’
‘Ok cool. I’m finding it hard to kill big stuff now.’
‘You should replace your Terminators with a Knight Castellan.’
‘Fair enough. Wait, now I’m struggling to spot the Custodes in my army. I didn’t want to play Knights and Gurd, I wanted to play Custodes.’
‘You can take Jetbike Captains.’
‘This isn’t the game I signed up for...’


No it's not a thing for imperium factions. You look at what the best units are from all 11 factions and cherry pick them to fill the roles you need most efficiently. That is the game right now. There is no penalty for doing so - so not doing so is just suboptimal.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/07 08:44:46


Mathammer(primarily Chaos Daemons, Adeptus Mechanicus, Necrons and Orks) https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mhwa-d77ztppXP9ZUQxur9HewqDTFZ6k
12k pts Daemons
5k pts Orks
5k pts AdMech
3k pts Necrons  
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




‘Not being a thing’ is not synonymous with ‘not being ideal for an optimised tournament list’. The game exists outside of the top tables at LVO.

But I fervently believe there should be a downside to Soup. Not enough to make it unviable, but enough for it to be an option rather than an auto-take.
   
Made in lt
Mysterious Techpriest






Hey, I'm probably the biggest hater of allies in the world

See all those "ok" units that fill gaps needed in your army? Pfft, just take other "amazing" units instead because there's no penalty for doing so

Mathammer(primarily Chaos Daemons, Adeptus Mechanicus, Necrons and Orks) https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mhwa-d77ztppXP9ZUQxur9HewqDTFZ6k
12k pts Daemons
5k pts Orks
5k pts AdMech
3k pts Necrons  
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




I think you and I are very much on the same page. By ‘faction identity is a thing’ I meant that it’s a part of the game’s design, and one that a huge chunk of the community like.
   
Made in lt
Mysterious Techpriest






kombatwombat wrote:
I think you and I are very much on the same page. By ‘faction identity is a thing’ I meant that it’s a part of the game’s design, and one that a huge chunk of the community like.


Allies are the main reason I don't play AdMech anymore despite them being my first army.
I do not like ANY of the other Imperium factions and I HATE power armor and guard.

But if I play pure AdMech, I have 0 hope against the Ork Codex or the Drukhari Codex, etc.
The other faction I have with a similar problem is Daemons however it's not even close. I could make a Daemon miniatures only army (nurgle + TS DPs) and it would be a very competitive list.

Mathammer(primarily Chaos Daemons, Adeptus Mechanicus, Necrons and Orks) https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mhwa-d77ztppXP9ZUQxur9HewqDTFZ6k
12k pts Daemons
5k pts Orks
5k pts AdMech
3k pts Necrons  
   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Allies are the main reason I don't play AdMech anymore despite them being my first army.
I do not like ANY of the other Imperium factions and I HATE power armor and guard.

But if I play pure AdMech, I have 0 hope against the Ork Codex or the Drukhari Codex, etc.
The other faction I have with a similar problem is Daemons however it's not even close. I could make a Daemon miniatures only army (nurgle + TS DPs) and it would be a very competitive list.

And if allies wouldn't exist your Ad Mech wouldn't be any better against Drukhari or Orks. Your problem is not the allies, your problem is that Ad Mech sucks.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in lt
Mysterious Techpriest






 Crimson wrote:
 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Allies are the main reason I don't play AdMech anymore despite them being my first army.
I do not like ANY of the other Imperium factions and I HATE power armor and guard.

But if I play pure AdMech, I have 0 hope against the Ork Codex or the Drukhari Codex, etc.
The other faction I have with a similar problem is Daemons however it's not even close. I could make a Daemon miniatures only army (nurgle + TS DPs) and it would be a very competitive list.

And if allies wouldn't exist your Ad Mech wouldn't be any better against Drukhari or Orks. Your problem is not the allies, your problem is that Ad Mech sucks.


I know AdMech sucks. They're only above Grey Knights kinda by default. But "your army sucks" is a much different feeling than "go buy splodges of 5 more armies to compete". AdMech with allies can compete. But since I'll never buy any other models from other factions - they're unplayble in competitive games to me. No matter how much they get buffed(within reason), if I face an allied imperium army with my pure admech army - I will be at an objective disadvantage until either soup is reigned or pure armies are given something for staying pure.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/07 09:31:19


Mathammer(primarily Chaos Daemons, Adeptus Mechanicus, Necrons and Orks) https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mhwa-d77ztppXP9ZUQxur9HewqDTFZ6k
12k pts Daemons
5k pts Orks
5k pts AdMech
3k pts Necrons  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Kirasu wrote:
 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Kirasu wrote:
durability in 8th doesn’t matter

Knight


Knight armies are a joke without the alpha strike of CP batteries + stratagems. One unit of new Ork tankbustas deletes a knight fairly easily every turn, as do dark reapers. The only reason they're viable is because of guard detachments. If they don't do an absurd amount of damage in turn 1 then it's often game over for a Castellan.

The base unit durability of a knight is not great for it's cost, but CPs help a lot. Also they're the extreme end of the unit spectrum so bravo for picking a possible exception (as they do not make the rule). We were talking about power armor.

People say knight's are durable, they really arn't without having strategums, relics, traits all stacked up.
Which needs Guard CP to keep that up for more than a turn and can only be done to 1 knight at a time.
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




 rvd1ofakind wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Allies are the main reason I don't play AdMech anymore despite them being my first army.
I do not like ANY of the other Imperium factions and I HATE power armor and guard.

But if I play pure AdMech, I have 0 hope against the Ork Codex or the Drukhari Codex, etc.
The other faction I have with a similar problem is Daemons however it's not even close. I could make a Daemon miniatures only army (nurgle + TS DPs) and it would be a very competitive list.

And if allies wouldn't exist your Ad Mech wouldn't be any better against Drukhari or Orks. Your problem is not the allies, your problem is that Ad Mech sucks.


I know AdMech sucks. They're only above Grey Knights kinda by default. But "your army sucks" is a much different feeling than "go buy splodges of 5 more armies to compete". AdMech with allies can compete. But since I'll never buy any other models from other factions - they're unplayble in competitive games to me. No matter how much they get buffed(within reason), if I face an allied imperium army with my pure admech army - I will be at an objective disadvantage until either soup is reigned or pure armies are given something for staying pure.


At least Admech can use Knights and this wouldnt count as Soup...try using Necrons without spamming And still auto lose to some matchups.

PS: Dont want to mock you...I just feel your pain...
   
Made in lt
Mysterious Techpriest






ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:


At least Admech can use Knights and this wouldnt count as Soup...try using Necrons without spamming And still auto lose to some matchups.

PS: Dont want to mock you...I just feel your pain...


Wanna look at my signature there, friend?
I sure picked some winners for 8th ed (especially until the ork codex)

Though I still feel a lot better about Necrons than AdMech. Maybe it's just me but "this army sucks" is so much better than "just buy other armies that you like less so this army doesn't suck"

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/07 09:49:39


Mathammer(primarily Chaos Daemons, Adeptus Mechanicus, Necrons and Orks) https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mhwa-d77ztppXP9ZUQxur9HewqDTFZ6k
12k pts Daemons
5k pts Orks
5k pts AdMech
3k pts Necrons  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Custodes, like Knights, were designed for allies in mind. It sucks, but tough.


Apparently "designed for allies in mind" means "most of their units suck and we won't bother trying to fix it because they can just ally Guard in"?
More like just replace 90% of your army with Guard who'll do the same damage for less while having more chaff and CP. "Downsides this is the Astra Militarum in 8th edition you don't get downsides."
   
Made in lt
Mysterious Techpriest






Ice_can wrote:
 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Custodes, like Knights, were designed for allies in mind. It sucks, but tough.


Apparently "designed for allies in mind" means "most of their units suck and we won't bother trying to fix it because they can just ally Guard in"?
More like just replace 90% of your army with Guard who'll do the same damage for less while having more chaff and CP. "Downsides this is the Astra Militarum in 8th edition you don't get downsides."

The downside of Astra Militarum is that a 4+ shooting army autoloses to -1/-2/-3 to hit eldar

Mathammer(primarily Chaos Daemons, Adeptus Mechanicus, Necrons and Orks) https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mhwa-d77ztppXP9ZUQxur9HewqDTFZ6k
12k pts Daemons
5k pts Orks
5k pts AdMech
3k pts Necrons  
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




 rvd1ofakind wrote:
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:


At least Admech can use Knights and this wouldnt count as Soup...try using Necrons without spamming And still auto lose to some matchups.

PS: Dont want to mock you...I just feel your pain...


Wanna look at my signature there, friend?
I sure picked some winners for 8th ed (especially until the ork codex)

Though I still feel a lot better about Necrons than AdMech. Maybe it's just me but "this army sucks" is so much better than "just buy other armies that you like less so this army doesn't suck"


Yee, with Necrons people cant tell you that because we have no allies we just suck on our own hahaha
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Regarding allies, and people feeling they’re not playing the same army: it’s called modeling, and painting - there’s no reason your Guardsman allies couldn’t be painted and modeled to be in theme and army with whoever you’re playing as.

Also, Penintent Engines better be t3 - there a human stuck on a piece of metal, not a super human. They also better have 6+ save, since their entirely unarmored.
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

fe40k wrote:
Regarding allies, and people feeling they’re not playing the same army: it’s called modeling, and painting - there’s no reason your Guardsman allies couldn’t be painted and modeled to be in theme and army with whoever you’re playing as.

Also, Penintent Engines better be t3 - there a human stuck on a piece of metal, not a super human. They also better have 6+ save, since their entirely unarmored.


Not all shots hit the driver...

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




 JohnnyHell wrote:
fe40k wrote:
Regarding allies, and people feeling they’re not playing the same army: it’s called modeling, and painting - there’s no reason your Guardsman allies couldn’t be painted and modeled to be in theme and army with whoever you’re playing as.

Also, Penintent Engines better be t3 - there a human stuck on a piece of metal, not a super human. They also better have 6+ save, since their entirely unarmored.


Not all shots hit the driver...


Yeah by that logic Leman Russes should be T4 6+, since they have fuel barrels and tracks.
   
 
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