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Yeah. I know a lot of folks use their Lootaz to take out high T targets and forget they can take down screens too, though.

If you don't want to invest that many CPs you could always use the Deathskull version.

If my math is correct you'd get 3 hits twice (with the shoot twice strat) which would equate for two times 2 wounded with S7 with one rerollable dmg.

so something around 14+ wounds (don't know how to do the math on those rerollable Dd6) for 2 CPs


*Edit: got the math wrong

CaptainO wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
I haven't really looked at your math but I assume it's right, I can't really be bothered to check right now. Say you do get those 11 hits on a knight. That translates to 5-6 wounds most likely, say 6 for arguments sake, that needs to pass a 3++ invuln. 2 get through and even if he doesn't reroll 1 of them you've averaged 7 damage, out of 28 wounds. He spends 1cp to operate at maximum efficiency next turn even if you manage to bring down 14 wounds or more on him. Even if he doesn't spend 3CP on rotate ion shields you still get 3 wounds though averaging 10.5 wounds, not enough for a bracket. Obviously the weapon is insanely swingy but still.

No, that big mek is not good against IK, it is however pretty decent against supersonic flyer spam.

Oh ya he's the definition of swingy. By shooting 3 separate times mathematically the swing does decrease. As I said the Big Killa boss means you've actually got a 42% chance of wounding on 3+ which ups it. This is on top of the possibility of getting S11/S12 and therefore D3 mortal wounds per hit. While only an 8% chance each time this also benefits from firing three times (also if you're super spendy you can use a CP reroll on the strength .

I'm pretty sure he is the best ork shooting units against IK (could be wrong). Even a mobbed up squad of 25 lootas (which costs waaaaay more) wouldn't do that more damage to a Knight. This highlights our limited options for taking down knights more than anything else.

It would take a lot more maths but I think he could definitely take a knight down in two turns. As I said he benefits from being a character so can't really be targeted. A prime target for assassins if ever I saw one.

Also against multiple knights he can switch fire using showing off to one that isn't using ion shields (lootas can do the same).

Shooting IK in general is just a bad idea. Only a few things will bring them down in shooting and almost all of those options are eldar soup. Doom+Jinx & haywire spam. The math gets real wonky with da souped up shokka but I'd wager that statistically speaking you can do that 6CP shooting turn two turns in a row and it still wouldn't die. It could kill it with no CP spent at all of course, the potential is there, but honestly I'd just shoot anything other than the knight itself. The good thing about the SAG is the high AP, that's completely negated by a knight. Use him to kill the hydras/chimeras/hellhounds/supersonic flyers/jetbikes instead.

Just bring enough anti-chaff and whoop it in CC. Against a castellan you can also tie it up with bikes since they only hit on 4's in CC undegraded, then wounding on 3's and need to roll 3+ on the wound rolls to kill them. It's risky but might be worth the reward.

That overwatch though.


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Bikes to eat the overwatch and warboss/psychic buffed wartrike to do the damage.

I think next game I'm just gonna mob up like 20 MANZ with all double killsaws then cast warpath and da jump them somewhere so they can obliterate something worth 1/4 of their points. It's gonna be great.

CaptainO wrote:

xlDuke wrote:
I don't think you can use Kustom Ammo and Showin' Off on the same unit, each stratagem allows you to 'shoot twice' rather than 'shoot again'/'an additional time' etc.

I've not seen anywhere you can't use both strats together. By all means this could be changed but it won't be until the big FAQ if it does.

Don't have codeX(and dont't have vigilus book period) so can't verify but if wording is indeed "shoot second time" rather than "shoot again" then indeed RAW no 3rd time shooting. Third time is not same as second time.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I have a lot of time for Nick and Steve but ultimately they finished 16th and 17th. I know I'm not as good a player as either so I need more of a power handicap.

There's going to be more flyer spam lists given their strength at LVO. We should expect to see them. My Eldar bud is going to run 3 Hemlocks in his competitive list from now on.

We need to adapt and to overcome. The top lists seem less reliant on stratagems, for me the Loota bomb is far too reliant on them. Perhaps Traktor cannons are the way forward? But I've seen a few smasha cannon lists and even they didn't do the work.

Honestly I think we should hope for points drops and a strong detachment in the next Vigilus book. Almost all or our units are far too expensive for their durability. Even the top performers. Personally I want to see a 30-50 pt drop on the buggies and bikes should come down to 17/18 ppm. Nob bikes at maybe 25 pts.

I think your comment on "adapt and overcome" is not fair. These two ork lists lost to the same person who made it to the finals in the tournament, not exactly a reasonable data point to consider a list as "not good enough". Steve and Nick went on to win 10 of 10 in their other games, Nick scored a perfect game round 1 as well.
16th and 17th in 800+ man tourney is good. Their list clearly functions, is a major component in the meta, and will likely give you a leg up in any event you go to. These lists have the capacity to win any tournament.

Your minimum requirements:
Warboss, probably on bike
Weirdboy, 3 of them
Big Mek w/ KFF
at least 90 Boyz
at least 60 Grots
at least 22 Lootas

you have about 300-500 points to spare here. Kommandos and MANZ are fitting in pretty well.

If you leave home without that you'll still be competitive sure, but you better have the reps in with this list to know exactly why you're making the changes. I'm personally playing 15 loota 15 tankbusta, for example, and the rest of my list follows tradition. Much like pre-codex, we are looking to have one good list, the good news is that it's extremely strong and is absolutely a top contender. Just because Orks did not top8 this tournament does not mean the sky is falling, the Loota star is real, buy them and start winning games.

What is the opinion on Boyz with gunz instead of Choppa /pistol loadout?

 hollow one wrote:

If you leave home without that you'll still be competitive sure, but you better have the reps in with this list to know exactly why you're making the changes. I'm personally playing 15 loota 15 tankbusta, for example, and the rest of my list follows tradition. Much like pre-codex, we are looking to have one good list, the good news is that it's extremely strong and is absolutely a top contender. Just because Orks did not top8 this tournament does not mean the sky is falling, the Loota star is real, buy them and start winning games.

Problems here being a) eldar soup will be good gate keeper to ensure you don't get top absolute top spots b) this is getting countered faster and faster. Codex comes out, it got then hit nerfbat in FAQ right away. Then comes CA2018 and again everybody else is getting boosts. Vigilant again helps other armies more than orks and imperium will be getting more likely new detachments than orks(imperium is likely in every book). Oh and with GSC even more "loota star removal" buttons out there. Now not only eldar soup but also tyranid soup can automatically remove it. Tyranids do it even better!


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Not Online!!! wrote:
What is the opinion on Boyz with gunz instead of Choppa /pistol loadout?

I like unit of 30 guns for T1 chaff clearing for T2 deep strikes. Shoot somewhere, try to charge another with your 58% odds. Gives you something to do even if you fail and chaff you don't need choppas anyway. And next turn you'll be dead anyway.

For others I like 10 shootas. Again give something to shoot with when deep strike, it's hard to fit everything into 12" range AND you don't neccessarily even want to shoot the target you are charging least you kill the models in range...Getting 30 into combat isn't quaranteed anyway when opponent uses screens properly and they can be used as first casualties. Great flexbility, very little drop in close combat efficiency(and 2 S4 shots hitting on 5+ can be about equal to 1 S4 attack hitting on 3+. Yes the pistol you might say but again what did I say about shootin at the target you want to charge? I don't usually dare to use the pistols as even 2 casualties could easily mean failing charge and 1 casualty could mean more than 1 ork not getting into combat!

So my fantasy of a Shoota Waaaggh is actually possibly working, well for fun anyways?

I imagine that people would go with Freebotaz then right?

I honestly thought that the green tide ork lists would be a good matchup against the ynnari flyer spam, since the Orks had so many models. I wonder what tactic they used because going for a tabling wouldn't be impossible if they could move up the field quickly enough. Brandon Grant won by virtue of still having guardsmen that weren't deleted fast enough, something like that should've been doable for the Orks as well.

Overall I would've liked to see Orks do better 16&17 spots are good, but those lists are piloted by some of the best 40k players out there right now. Meaning someone like me (or most likely, all of us) wouldn't make them work as well as they did. It's also the fact that the GSC codex probably heralds a new soup into contention, 'nid soup and the new beta bolter rule is not good for us. Orks did well, but it seems like it's getting tougher moving forward, not easier.

On a personal level I still feel that lootas are a trap, I'm sure 15 of them are performing well but anything over that is just too steep of an investment IMO. That doesn't mean that it's easy to see what "should" replace them. Their potential is off the rails good, hence why they became so popular. Do we have any idea of how the MANZ performed at LVO? A medium-big blob of those buffed up by warpath and maybe a waaagh banner nob + potentially "get stuck in ladz" could deliver real results. But that requires a lot of chaff clearing to have happened T1.

Not Online!!! wrote:
What is the opinion on Boyz with gunz instead of Choppa /pistol loadout?

Shoota boyz are pretty good to put 10 of in your 30 boyz blobs since you're unlikely to get all of them in CC anyways. Thus you're getting the added benefit of green tide/morale but also some shots to put downfield, just remove those guys first as casualties. Big blobs of shoota boyz as bad moons aren't bad either but at that point you might wanna start looking at warbikers because of their high output of S5 rather than S4 shots.

Not Online!!! wrote:
So my fantasy of a Shoota Waaaggh is actually possibly working, well for fun anyways?

I imagine that people would go with Freebotaz then right?

Wouldn't be going all shootas but they aren't totally worthless junk not worth taking at all.

Though do require tons of rolling. Especially with bad moons that I have been running them as. All those rerolls!

Well, I'm certainly hoping that whenever we do get point drops the Big Shoota goes down 2 points per weapon. Heavy stubbers wielded by admech costs 2 points, those weapons aren't as good but also fired at BS3+.

If that happens I'm chucking big shootas on EVERYTHING

PiñaColada wrote:
I honestly thought that the green tide ork lists would be a good matchup against the ynnari flyer spam, since the Orks had so many models. I wonder what tactic they used because going for a tabling wouldn't be impossible if they could move up the field quickly enough. Brandon Grant won by virtue of still having guardsmen that weren't deleted fast enough, something like that should've been doable for the Orks as well.

One issue greentide would face vs 7 flyers is though simple movement and also deep strikes would be pretty much screwed. I have played vs eldar with 3 flyers and basically he easily shut down whole board for me to deep strike and even moving past those pie plates of "can't charge me nahnahnah" was annoying. If he has dark eldar of "lootas die" getting rid of those fliers is pretty hard. And reaching all the softer targets is hard due to flyers blocking way and deep strike behind impossible.

tneva82 wrote:

CaptainO wrote:

xlDuke wrote:
I don't think you can use Kustom Ammo and Showin' Off on the same unit, each stratagem allows you to 'shoot twice' rather than 'shoot again'/'an additional time' etc.

I've not seen anywhere you can't use both strats together. By all means this could be changed but it won't be until the big FAQ if it does.

Don't have codeX(and dont't have vigilus book period) so can't verify but if wording is indeed "shoot second time" rather than "shoot again" then indeed RAW no 3rd time shooting. Third time is not same as second time.

Kustom ammo is worded "shoot twice"
Showing off is worded "shoot a second time"

You could argue that you could shoot twice a second time. To paraphase barny two times two IS four....

As with all RAW and RAI arguments, in any tournament setting its up to the TO on the ground so my advice would be to contact them before making any assumptions. Last TO was happy that I could fire again. I didn't even bother asking about shooting four times but I guarantee someone will.


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Does anyone have any links for LVO 2019 battle reps. I can't find them on Twitch and none of the youtube channels seem to have many. Ideally ork ones but I'd settle for some of the lesser races.

Frontline tv did some good ones last year.

tneva82 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
So my fantasy of a Shoota Waaaggh is actually possibly working, well for fun anyways?

I imagine that people would go with Freebotaz then right?

Wouldn't be going all shootas but they aren't totally worthless junk not worth taking at all.

Though do require tons of rolling. Especially with bad moons that I have been running them as. All those rerolls!

But, but but dakka!

Jokes aside it would be a fun side project not some serious army.

Warhammer TV streamed the LVO 40k championships this year, don't know if any ork lists ever made it onto the stream


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
I honestly thought that the green tide ork lists would be a good matchup against the ynnari flyer spam, since the Orks had so many models. I wonder what tactic they used because going for a tabling wouldn't be impossible if they could move up the field quickly enough. Brandon Grant won by virtue of still having guardsmen that weren't deleted fast enough, something like that should've been doable for the Orks as well.

One issue greentide would face vs 7 flyers is though simple movement and also deep strikes would be pretty much screwed. I have played vs eldar with 3 flyers and basically he easily shut down whole board for me to deep strike and even moving past those pie plates of "can't charge me nahnahnah" was annoying. If he has dark eldar of "lootas die" getting rid of those fliers is pretty hard. And reaching all the softer targets is hard due to flyers blocking way and deep strike behind impossible.

Yeah, that's true. You can really deny a lot of plays like that. No real easy solution to fix it either since you can't have scenarios of models ending up on top of other models' bases.

I don't think there's a reasonable RAW Vs RAI argument here as the RAW is clear. If you've shot twice you've already shot a second time and cannot do so again without breaking the rules. If one of the stratagems let you 'shoot double the amount of shots' and the other was worded 'shoot twice' it would work. I would guess that your TO just wasn't familiar with the two rules.

 hollow one wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I have a lot of time for Nick and Steve but ultimately they finished 16th and 17th. I know I'm not as good a player as either so I need more of a power handicap.

There's going to be more flyer spam lists given their strength at LVO. We should expect to see them. My Eldar bud is going to run 3 Hemlocks in his competitive list from now on.

We need to adapt and to overcome. The top lists seem less reliant on stratagems, for me the Loota bomb is far too reliant on them. Perhaps Traktor cannons are the way forward? But I've seen a few smasha cannon lists and even they didn't do the work.

Honestly I think we should hope for points drops and a strong detachment in the next Vigilus book. Almost all or our units are far too expensive for their durability. Even the top performers. Personally I want to see a 30-50 pt drop on the buggies and bikes should come down to 17/18 ppm. Nob bikes at maybe 25 pts.

I think your comment on "adapt and overcome" is not fair. These two ork lists lost to the same person who made it to the finals in the tournament, not exactly a reasonable data point to consider a list as "not good enough". Steve and Nick went on to win 10 of 10 in their other games, Nick scored a perfect game round 1 as well.
16th and 17th in 800+ man tourney is good. Their list clearly functions, is a major component in the meta, and will likely give you a leg up in any event you go to. These lists have the capacity to win any tournament.

Your minimum requirements:
Warboss, probably on bike
Weirdboy, 3 of them
Big Mek w/ KFF
at least 90 Boyz
at least 60 Grots
at least 22 Lootas

you have about 300-500 points to spare here. Kommandos and MANZ are fitting in pretty well.

If you leave home without that you'll still be competitive sure, but you better have the reps in with this list to know exactly why you're making the changes. I'm personally playing 15 loota 15 tankbusta, for example, and the rest of my list follows tradition. Much like pre-codex, we are looking to have one good list, the good news is that it's extremely strong and is absolutely a top contender. Just because Orks did not top8 this tournament does not mean the sky is falling, the Loota star is real, buy them and start winning games.

I agree with you that we're in a pretty good spot and have at least one good build. Being realistic we've had the codex for 3 months max so we definitely have a couple of builds that haven't been explored yet.

It'll be interesting to see what happens in terms of Index units. Some tournaments have already stopped using them. As you said Bike boss and non Mega armoured Mek with KFF are featured in 90% of builds. I've switched to Morkanauts and Wartrikes in an effort to future proof but the removal of index units will effect us more than most other armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

xlDuke wrote:

Spoiler:

CaptainO wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

CaptainO wrote:

xlDuke wrote:
I don't think you can use Kustom Ammo and Showin' Off on the same unit, each stratagem allows you to 'shoot twice' rather than 'shoot again'/'an additional time' etc.

I've not seen anywhere you can't use both strats together. By all means this could be changed but it won't be until the big FAQ if it does.

Don't have codeX(and dont't have vigilus book period) so can't verify but if wording is indeed "shoot second time" rather than "shoot again" then indeed RAW no 3rd time shooting. Third time is not same as second time.

Kustom ammo is worded "shoot twice"
Showing off is worded "shoot a second time"

You could argue that you could shoot twice a second time. To paraphase barny two times two IS four....

As with all RAW and RAI arguments, in any tournament setting its up to the TO on the ground so my advice would be to contact them before making any assumptions. Last TO was happy that I could fire again. I didn't even bother asking about shooting four times but I guarantee someone will.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does anyone have any links for LVO 2019 battle reps. I can't find them on Twitch and none of the youtube channels seem to have many. Ideally ork ones but I'd settle for some of the lesser races.

Frontline tv did some good ones last year.

I don't think there's a reasonable RAW Vs RAI argument here as the RAW is clear. If you've shot twice you've already shot a second time and cannot do so again without breaking the rules. If one of the stratagems let you 'shoot double the amount of shots' and the other was worded 'shoot twice' it would work. I would guess that your TO just wasn't familiar with the two rules.

As I said mate its always down to the TO. He was as familiar with the rules as anyone else in that he read the two rulebooks and made a call. We could argue over this till blue in the face (deathskulls) but its down to the TO so before anyone relies on this just contact them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PiñaColada wrote:
Warhammer TV streamed the LVO 40k championships this year, don't know if any ork lists ever made it onto the stream.

Thanks dude. Just looking at Warhammer TV on twitch and no ork LVO games appear to be archieved which is a pity. It would have been good to see what went wrong on the only games the tops guys lost.

bad moonz shoota boyz are pretty good for me.
They tend to delete units i didnt feel like i should have deleted in shooting.

I played at LVO long war doubles. Ended up with 3 out of 3 losses but had some good games.

My experience was that the time was very limiting. They did not use the bcp app but instead printed lists. The printer had malfunctions, wich led to most games being around 2-2.5 hours long

Our list was half bad moons (20 lootas, morkanaught, gretchins) and blood axes (ard boyz, deff dredds, meganobz). Most units performed well at least 2 games. Meganobz saw close combat all games, but it was sad that 9 meganoz fighting twice could only manage like 10 wounds against the shiled/lance knight with it's 3+ iv save. The double tapping morkanaught was probably not worth it as it is a joke against any knight variants.

Next time we will try to make a list that is optimized for speed play. Game 2 vs guard we only managed 2/5 rounds. (We clocked our round one at 25 min, the only game we got first turn initiative)

Gitdakka wrote:
I played at LVO long war doubles. Ended up with 3 out of 3 losses but had some good games.

My experience was that the time was very limiting. They did not use the bcp app but instead printed lists. The printer had malfunctions, wich led to most games being around 2-2.5 hours long

Our list was half bad moons (20 lootas, morkanaught, gretchins) and blood axes (ard boyz, deff dredds, meganobz). Most units performed well at least 2 games. Meganobz saw close combat all games, but it was sad that 9 meganoz fighting twice could only manage like 10 wounds against the shiled/lance knight with it's 3+ iv save. The double tapping morkanaught was probably not worth it as it is a joke against any knight variants.

Next time we will try to make a list that is optimized for speed play. Game 2 vs guard we only managed 2/5 rounds. (We clocked our round one at 25 min, the only game we got first turn initiative)

I bet you had a blast. Fairly fluffy army too. Playing orks with a chess clock solo is tough (but doable with practice). Playing doubles would definitely take some practice games.

By shield/lance knight are you talking about an eldar titan? The Castellans 3++ only counts against ranged so the Mega nobs should have gone through his armour saves.

Sounds like a fun experience.

And no, he's talking about the FW lancer knight I reckon CaptainO

Yeah we had a great time. And yes it was the imperial forge world titan. Rotate strat gave 4+iv against shooting and and 3+iv in cc, 28 wounds, t8 if I recall correctly

Gitdakka wrote:
Yeah we had a great time. And yes it was the imperial forge world titan. Rotate strat gave 4+iv against shooting and and 3+iv in cc, 28 wounds, t8 if I recall correctly

Ouch they are crazy stats especially against orks. How many points is that guy?

420. Shooting wise 18" 6 shots at 6/-1/d3. Nasty in h2h, shooting fairly wimp. Also think he need 3 superheavies to get lance character for warlord trait etc. Strategems for warlord traits and relics don't work on cerastus so no solo lance with those

CaptainO wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:
Yeah we had a great time. And yes it was the imperial forge world titan. Rotate strat gave 4+iv against shooting and and 3+iv in cc, 28 wounds, t8 if I recall correctly

Ouch they are crazy stats especially against orks. How many points is that guy?

He's 420 points if I remember correctly. Forgeworld is a lawless wasteland when it comes to rules and should have those privileges redacted if it were up to me. I'm not sure if it's as good as a Gallant but the Lancer has removed really the only big weakness soup IK has, vulnerability to melee

He#s nothing compared to castellan. There#s reasonfw doesn't appear at top lists but gw's do. Gw stuff is the broken one

go figure the only FW stuff thats actually strong is imperial...

I don't really think the Lancer is overpowered but it's a chore to face. IK are super durable in the shooting phase so going in CC to bring the pain is always a decent bet. The Lancer brings the anti-fun element of IK shooting durability into CC.