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Rant: These postings are quite humorous...afterall, many of the OPs berate or attack individuals who attempt assist them with list builds and tactical advice. My question is, "if you don't want feedback, then why post?" Moreover, "friendly is subjective and if you're all about a friendly list, then why ask for advice?" Okay...just had to spew forth and waste bandwith. Sorry.

Because people are idiots.

Take the budding artist, who posts some crappy manga drawing on a site, and screams at anyone who says a word of criticism.

i always find that qualifier funny as well.

 

a friendly list? i thought you were putting an army on the table with the intent to kill the other guys army. how is that "friendly"

My "friendly" army list is a plate of freshly-baked chocolate chip cookies.  We use milk instead of templates.

Iorek: along that line, my Vegas GT list is friendly as well...here's a shot for every trooper/unit/vehicle I destroy on my turn. Let's see, end of turn 1, here's x+y+z drinks of your choice and guess what - your turn.

In some 'friendly' games we have a house rule that if you down a shot, you can change one die to a '6'.

It works well in making you trade future decision-making for a temporary advantage.

Ask Warseer. They're all about friendly lists and cheese.



Hahaha yeah. But the opposite is worse: people screaming at you for daring to criticize the crappy "art" and promoting a circlejerk of telling the guy he's awesome so he posts even more crap. The weird thing is that if you're good enough, that's when you'll start to get criticism from others so you can improve your form. But not when you're a beginner. I don't get it either.

I sometimes question the authoritarian manner some posters reply to those threads in, but really, I reckon most of the time people don't put enough information in the initial post for anyone to really help them.

I always assumed that when people post them, they're really saying "Here's a basic template for what I want to play. Is there anyway you can make it not suck?"

As many people find, no, there usually isn't.

though I've chuckled a few times at that myself. Maybe they want to tweak the list for maximum friendlieness? You know, what units are statistically most likely to make an opponent smile?

As for the amateur artists, well, it's tough to post your work for crticism. There's a reason that for every novel submitted to a publisher, there's one that stays on a hard drive. I mean, if an artist is obviously unskilled, I try to say something positive but it's hard sometimes to not tell somebody, "you seem to have little talent and less training."

I'm not sure of the intent but anyone can see that what my list lacks in effectiveness it makes up for with enthusiasim.
Shooty Dark Eldar rool!

Yeah. I did a webcomic a year ago and my art was terrible. the volume of critisism spurred me to go work harder on my artwork, but now I'm too busy working on it or daydreaming about how to improve it to get any comics done.

I think what pisses me of more is people who don't have a clue what they're talking about yet still give out advice.

Real Example: (from some other site)

"I'm going to an RTT for the first time and bringing my guard, what advice can you give me?" (he goes on to give a list to rate)

"As a guard veteran, let me tell you what you will need, [...] "grenade launchers are versitle and powerful, and at 8 points, you can't afford not to take them!"[...]"make sure every squad has a vox caster to take advantage of your commanders LD!"[...] "Carapace armor can be a decent choice if your having trouble beating bolters"

It litterally went on like that for a full page.

Posted By IntoTheRain on 04/30/2007 6:40 PM
I think what pisses me of more is people who don't have a clue what they're talking about yet still give out advice.

Real Example: (from some other site)

"I'm going to an RTT for the first time and bringing my guard, what advice can you give me?" (he goes on to give a list to rate)

"As a guard veteran, let me tell you what you will need, [...] "grenade launchers are versitle and powerful, and at 8 points, you can't afford not to take them!"[...]"make sure every squad has a vox caster to take advantage of your commanders LD!"[...] "Carapace armor can be a decent choice if your having trouble beating bolters"

It litterally went on like that for a full page.

Ouch.  Those are some harsh vibes.  It's hard to know how to reply to stuff like that. 

I ignore [friendly] as I do "pro painted" qualifiers for auctions on ebay. Both are just as misleading to me.

When people go to such pains to gain my attention, they dont get it.

Though I can see some merit in trying to make a "friendly" army list. I actually rather respect that.

But really, how do you judge what is friendly and what is cheese? What frame of reference do you judge this by? I know it is all rather subjective, and ultimatly it is an attempt to find common acceptance of the idea of how friendly your list is ("its not cheese! the people on dakka said it was rather freindly" ) but really, I find it kind of even more pointless than most posts on internet forums.

Posted By Hellfury on 04/30/2007 6:54 PM

But really, how do you judge what is friendly and what is cheese?

Friendly is served with a smile, cheese is served with a smirk or grin.

Posted By Asmodai on 04/30/2007 7:15 PM

Posted By Hellfury on 04/30/2007 6:54 PM

But really, how do you judge what is friendly and what is cheese?

Friendly is served with a smile, cheese is served with a smirk or grin.

usually when I serve cheese, it is with an undeniable look of guilt.

Must be my catholic upbringing.

I never know what to say what someone asks for advice for a "friendly" list. I never post in such threads (they seem to crop up regularly on the B&C). Is "friendly" a euphemism for "hobbled?"

I cant make army list as mine all suck. But if by friendly they meen not overpowered etc I could as MY lists suck so nobody would have a problem with it, Well apart from the guy I made the list for cos he would get slaughtered.

uh sorry but i have fought some tough battle against IG with the vox. this is actually good advice if you want your IG squads to tie up units or stay on the table. LD 9 never modified,  unless the HQ unit itself has a modification.....in a guard army no less is wonderful thing from the IG perspective. .

 

some people may not like to pay the points for it or it doesn't fit thier style, but that hardly effects it usefullness.

Posted By IntoTheRain on 04/30/2007 6:40 PM
"As a guard veteran, let me tell you what you will need, [...] "grenade launchers are versitle and powerful, and at 8 points, you can't afford not to take them!"[...]"make sure every squad has a vox caster to take advantage of your commanders LD!"[...] "Carapace armor can be a decent choice if your having trouble beating bolters"

I'm sure someone posted a 'tactica' (and I use that word with much hesitation) on how good Mortars were. Mortars for Emperor's sake!

Where do these people come from...

BYE

Posted By mughi3 on 05/01/2007 2:36 AM

LD 9 never modified,  unless the HQ unit itself has a modification.....in a guard army no less is wonderful thing from the IG perspective. .

Good thing you can get the same thing for free by using your command bubbles, that every officer you have gives out, again, for free.

Who needs Voxes when the special rules for the Officers do the same, if not better, for no points cost whatsoever. Voxes do nothing a Guard army can't already do without having to pay points for it.

BYE

I think people use the term "friendly or fluffy List" so they have an excuse when they lose. Then they come on the net and complain about the lack of game balance. I'd submit that it is GWs response to these folks that brings us nerf after nerf and a steady decrease in flavor and flexibility.

I'm all for friendly games... for blood...

Now that I've had time to think about it, I think that a friendly army list is one that doesn't hold any surprises, power-level-wise, for your opponent.  Not trying to trick him/her, not being shady.

Well, other army-specific forums (advancedtautactica.com) also have players who regularly propose different tactics and ways about dealing with things. Since the likes of Torgoch/spooky (for you UK players who might recognize them) and other players competent with math can back up new ideas exist in that forum, it tends to go well. I might be supporting it too much, but the site came up with the "proper" Mecha Tau lists early in 4th and someone cleverly came up with the "Fish of Fury" name. So sites that push the boundaries of what is a good list are certainly valuable.

Then you have users posting solely based on anecdotal evidence.

I actually prefer to post in 'friendly' Army List threads, I see the value in what the player is doing, even if some others do not.

In a nutshell: a friendly list generally wants to be effective enough yet not filled with the same old-same old that other lists have.

Let us take nids for example. If someone posted 'help with 1500pts of nids' most repliers would come back with 'nidzilla', maybe some would add 'carapace stealers'. Many people here cannot see past this, and in their narrow minds cannot see how anyone would want anything different.
Enough already, you dont need to be a tactical genius the likes of Rommel and Alexander to pick the best choices from an army list. Those who post friendly lists usually know all the tricks already. What they want is to build an army out of something else.

The trouble is so many here have parroted good lists and loadouts without imagination, and make themselves feel slightly more intelligent when they point out non-minimaxed lists as the suxx0r.

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 05/01/2007 4:53 AM

Posted By mughi3 on 05/01/2007 2:36 AM

LD 9 never modified,  unless the HQ unit itself has a modification.....in a guard army no less is wonderful thing from the IG perspective. .

Good thing you can get the same thing for free by using your command bubbles, that every officer you have gives out, again, for free.

Who needs Voxes when the special rules for the Officers do the same, if not better, for no points cost whatsoever. Voxes do nothing a Guard army can't already do without having to pay points for it.

BYE

that sounds good until

.you need to spread your IG forces out of the 12" bubble to

1take advantage of terrain,

2create LOS for your weapons,

3take a mission objective,

4.play in a tournament

5.use different doctrines other tha just castling up

6.stall a unit in CC for half the game

 

i have fought against it, it does work and it is worth the points. however it may not fit your personal playing style

Meh. I'm good at rolling under 7, and I don't really care about losing troops.

For the cost of a Comms network, I could either take Veteran Sergeants (removing the reliance on vulnerable HQ units entirely) or field enough extra squads that losing a couple wouldn't hurt.

It's modelled into my minis, but I'd never take a comm system with the current rules.

Posted By mughi3 on 05/01/2007 1:11 PM

you need to spread your IG forces out of the 12" bubble to

1take advantage of terrain,

2create LOS for your weapons,

3take a mission objective,

4.play in a tournament

5.use different doctrines other tha just castling up

6.stall a unit in CC for half the game

1. Most Guard players worth their salt take 2+ Officers, meaning you can cover your entire DZ with Ld8 or Ld9 Iron Discipline goodness. Ain't hard to spread out with that around.
2. How does 'taking advantage of terrain' preclude you from using the Leadership rule mughi? If you're going to make an argument against the free Leadership rules, try to make it a good one.
3. LOS? I've never had any problem getting LOS and remaining inside my Leadership bubbles.
4. Officers can support squads taking an objective. Fearless vehicles can take objectives. Taking objectives does not preclude you from using the Leadership rule.
5. Play in a tournament? WTF? I go back to my original statement - you need to have a good argument... no, you need to have an extremely good argument to claim that Voxes, that cost points, and are restricted to one squad per turn, unless you buy a 25 point Master Vox is somehow better than the free Leadership rule, that only requires one model from a squad to remain partially within a 24" diametre circle of an officer. Not exactly difficult... and FREE to boot!
6. I spose if you're playing a Guard HTH army... oh... wait... there's no such thing. Guard sit and shoot. And if you have squads moving forward, you buy them a Vet Sergeant and give them Close Order drill. That's Ld9 right there.
7. Which is really easy to do with a massive 24" diametre Leadership Radius.

Why would you need Voxes for something your army does for free already?

BYE

...and so it takes less than two pages for a thread topic to collapse from the general to the specific, with concomitant rancor & sarcasm.  Wheee!  Go get him, H.B.!