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Yeah, D2 and a bunch of attacks is an odd statline, they’ve not got the strength and AP to deal with most units where multiple damage is useful. Mobile tanking seems to be their thing. Might get better if a Herald can ride with them. I can see S5 D2 being okay in Primaris-rich environments.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Yeah, D2 and a bunch of attacks is an odd statline, they’ve not got the strength and AP to deal with most units where multiple damage is useful. Mobile tanking seems to be their thing. Might get better if a Herald can ride with them. I can see S5 D2 being okay in Primaris-rich environments.

Herald doesn't really help them since he boosts the strength characteristic of the model and thats only for the rider attacks, the drone attacks use a melee weapon stat line which is 4 instead of "user".

Good points, maybe they will get better next month, have to wait and see. Either way 3 for 15 seemed like a good deal. :p

I ended up playing a small game earlier against the new Tyrnaid codex, just 1000pts but it turned into an amazing game. Few things I learned from it.

1. A small detachment or just making the list chaos soup and losing legion tactics was well worth it. Ended up taking a forgefiend with hades auto cannons and a sorcerer of tzeench, sorcerer casting prescience on it all game and man did the +1 to hit rolls help. Made an effective fire base for my deamons to feed off of.

2. Took a soul grinder for the first time, was not impressed with it but it wasn't the units fault. First and second turns it got shot at by every big gun on the other side of the field (2 stranglehorns and a venom cannon, plus some devourers that got in range) I rolled for crap on the armor saves so it was dropped to 1 wound by my second turn, but even then I still killed a genestealer that charged it from overwatch and the phlegm cannon. That alone was funny to think of.

3. Skull taker and Bloodletters rock! Deamonettes not so much. Had a squad of 10 demonettes charge a pack of 20 genestealers that were next to a broodlord and which had catalyst on it. I know, not smart, but it was either charge them or get charged. So the deamonettes kill 1 genestealer and then get wiped. Next the stealers end up charging my soul grinder and a squad of rubrics that were near it acting as protection. Both got hammered by the stealers, causing the grinder to finally die and all but the aspiring sorcerer to die. But then I charged the 19 stealers and broodlord with 20 Bloodletters and skulltaker. And they just killed the genestealers dead. Heck, even skull taker got lucky and killed the broodlord before it got a chance to fight back. These guys were my mvp's, ended up killing a wounded carnifex, 7 termagaunts, 19 genestealers, and a broodlord before getting wiped out.

All in all I had a blast. Now I need to buy more Bloodletters, would love a squad of 30 to have some real fun.

Oh dude, trust me. Soul Grinder is baaaaaad. Defensivelly it's ok. Offensivelly, they do NOTHING. AT ALL. EVER.
And yeah, Bloodletters gak on Daemonettes. There is absolutelly zero reason to take them.

I really hope the codex improves soul grinders... I’ve got two unpainted and no reason to paint them currently!

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:
I really hope the codex improves soul grinders... I’ve got two unpainted and no reason to paint them currently!

Literally my spot now.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:
I really hope the codex improves soul grinders... I’ve got two unpainted and no reason to paint them currently!

Literally my spot now.

When I can get Mortarion for the same price, there must be something wrong...

Don't forget that the Bloodthirsty doesn't suffer from battle shock, Which can almost double the amount of models killed depending on the situation. So ignoring Brimstones (which are broken and have almost zero offensive capabilities) bolters are considerably better at stopping the hordes with even relatively low battle shock casualties.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Here’s a fun fact. If you take a Bloodthirster, it takes 216 bolter shots to kill him.
Bolters are anti-horde weapons because they lack AP. Str 4 makes it great for killing Tough 3 tiny units with low armor save. Obviously it shuold be more efficient against tough 3 troops, right? Well let’s see
If you take an equivalent number of brimstones (113), it takes 510 bolter shots to kill them. That’s disregarding the fact that they have access to a -1 to be hit aura…
But let’s say brimstones are OP, broken, etc…
Pink Horrors. They’re pretty bad. Let’s check those out(48 of them in this case). It takes 218 shots.
So again:
Bloodthirster: 216 shots
Brimstones:510 shots
Pink Horrors: 218 shots
Why does an anti-horde weapon, like a bolter work better against a huge monster than small tiny troops?
What about an anti tank weapon(Las cannon). By this broken logic, it should work better against troops? :p
Bloodthirster: 15.42857143 shots
Brimstones: 408 shots
Pink horrors: 174 shots
Yeah……. This is why I don’t think any math was done when making up the point costs.
For BT to start to be more resilient to bolter shots than Brimstones, he should cost 140 points. Wow. That’s -200 points. Obviously, we have to take offensive capabilities into account… But we can clearly see that anti-horde weapons are more efficient at killing big guys than actual hordes. And that’s…. quite sad.

Except pretty much every horde in the game has easy access to morale immunity. Orks for example have it by default.

Horrors don't have it, guardsmen only have it if they're Valhallan (locking those squads out of Cadian goodies), cultists only have it if they're Iron Warriors (locking those squads out of Alpha Legion goodies)... leaves orks and tyranids as the hordes that you can reasonably expect to have morale immunity on competitive tables. So a little less than half of the hordes. Significant boon to the hordes that do have it, though saying "pretty much every" one has "easy access" is definitely a stretch.

Well everyone has easy access through CP, can if you have enough bodies CP becomes less of an issue.
But not factoring in battleshock is still a bad idea in most instances.

Brimstones are so good, they hardly care about moreale. They're more than 2x resistant to the ANTIHORDE weapon.
Orks and tyranids pretty much completelly ignore it (and are as resistant to ANTIHORDE weapons as a bloodthirster).
Cultists and Infantry have access to it as well with worlds. Finally, as was mentioned, you can pay 2CP.
If you don't think <=6 pts hordes are broken now, I don't know what to tell you guys. When's the last time you've seen a successful imperium army without hordes of 4pts units, chaos without hordes of 3-5 pts units and orks without 60-120 boyz? The only exceptions pretty much are when the all superheavy list gets lucky. Hordes crap all over elite armies and armies with only a few big guys.

At LD7 Brimstones absolutely care about morale. It's the easiest way to kill them. Large units of horrors are a deathknell against enemies that can remove a few models from multiple squads, as well as against any enemy that can manipulate their leadership.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
At LD7 Brimstones absolutely care about morale. It's the easiest way to kill them. Large units of horrors are a deathknell against enemies that can remove a few models from multiple squads, as well as against any enemy that can manipulate their leadership.

Yes but in relation to the Bloodthirster, the antihorde weapon is still superior against the big monster rather than an actual horde. And again, the main this is that anti-tank weapons will NEVER be better against hordes than tanks. Not even close. It's like the antihorde weapon is about 20-40% superior against hordes, when compared to not an overpriced piece of trash like the Bloodthirster. And the anti-tank weapon is about 500% superior.
Damage from weapons should spread like mortal wounds. It'd remove all the hassle with multiwound units and 1 wound models can stay cheap.
Obviously it's too big of a change(probably) and they'll never do it, as you'd have to re-evaluate 1 wound 3+ (or better) armour save units.

Any recommendations for a Khorne/Slaanesh list right now?

Is it better to go with 20 or 30 units of Bloodletters/Daemonettes?

Cataphract wrote:
Any recommendations for a Khorne/Slaanesh list right now?

Is it better to go with 20 or 30 units of Bloodletters/Daemonettes?

Best to go 0. Go in with heralds, surrounded by brimstones, and summon bloodletters(who are a straight up upgrade to daemonettes and cost the.... same.... huh....)

http://natfka.blogspot.gr/2017/12/new-beasts-of-nurgle-shown-in-this.html?m=1



Ohhh yeahhhh new beast of nurgle!!!!

Finally painting my soul grinder in anticipation of them not sucking in the codex!

 avedominusnox wrote:
http://natfka.blogspot.gr/2017/12/new-beasts-of-nurgle-shown-in-this.html?m=1



Ohhh yeahhhh new beast of nurgle!!!!

Cool! Reminds me of the Call of Cthulhu Moon Beasts Let's hope this means we'll see a nice buff making them viable in play too

It's about ten times as big as my late 90s pewter ones :-o

Azuza001 wrote:
Anyone have any experience with the plauge drones? The ones that look like giant flies. I got my hands on 3 NOS for 15$ and have not put them together yet, not sure what their roll is really in a deamon army. Are they just flying close combat monsters?

They were excellent in 7th when the leader could take an ap2 mastercrafted weapon and they auto glanced vehicles on 6s. Now? As others said, and like many other daemon units, they are in a weird spot that doesn't really work. I guess they are good at killing other daemons lol.

Thanks for the fly input lol. Guess it's another one of those "wait and see how it works after codex release" .

How do Burning Chariots do? I've never played them and thinking about getting some

I think Burning Chariots do best when you bring a large number of them or multiple other threats to overwhelm your opponent.

The last tournament I went to I brought 9 Burning Chariots of Tzeentch in a 1600 point game. The rest of my list consisted of 2 DP, Changeling, Blue Scribes, and as many brims as I could take. While it wasn't a super competitive event, I easily claimed first place. We used Eternal War missions from the book and used the total VP gained over the 3 rounds to determine the winner - I was ahead of 2nd place by 10 VP.

The strength of the chariots is being able to move wherever you need them. Either claiming objectives or shooting, then charging in (they are no slouch in close combat with their 9 attacks!)
If you find them in combat when it's your next turn you can shoot with your pistol mode to do d6 s5 ap -1 auto-hits into your opponent or you can just fly away and kill something else. Add in that if someone charges you there is a good chance that you will be able to auto hit with your flamer.
They are just so versatile against a wide range of targets.

You may find that people will advocate for the Exalted Flamer as being a superior choice, and while in many ways it is (being a character and all with same weapon load out), I find that your speed and threat radius is limited by the chaff unit that is protecting it which in turn reduces your effectiveness in controlling objectives.

What about Chaos Land Raider? It costs 350pts and has who lascanons. Is he good for delivering Rubric flamers?

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
What about Chaos Land Raider? It costs 350pts and has who lascanons. Is he good for delivering Rubric flamers?

Actually, I quite like this.

I’ve struggled to find a use for my Land Raider. Everything I’ve put in it seems quite suboptimal.

With DS not having mishaps, anchoring Terminators to a LR seems like a waste.

Berzerkers want delivery, but at their price it’s better to send two Rhinos. Or send a full squad in KAC or Spartan.

PMs and NMs arent shock troops that want a tough transport to take them into a bloodbath.

Chosen probably want a Dreadclaw to reach their idea target.
.
I’ve planned to add a Rhino full of Rubric Fire, as a counter to deep strikers. But it seemed like an expensive scarecrow/fire engine.

Putting them in the Raider, deleting the Termagant brood that keeps reinforcing itself, and daring the Genestealers to declare a charge? Popping a CP to give the Sorcerer a useful power? I’m sold.

Perhaps not tournament material, but it looks like an entirely viable option in my meta.

Edit: I going to repost this in the general Chaos Tactica thread, this ain’t the place for a CSM digression

thanks!

JakeSiren wrote:
I think Burning Chariots do best when you bring a large number of them or multiple other threats to overwhelm your opponent.

The last tournament I went to I brought 9 Burning Chariots of Tzeentch in a 1600 point game. The rest of my list consisted of 2 DP, Changeling, Blue Scribes, and as many brims as I could take. While it wasn't a super competitive event, I easily claimed first place. We used Eternal War missions from the book and used the total VP gained over the 3 rounds to determine the winner - I was ahead of 2nd place by 10 VP.

The strength of the chariots is being able to move wherever you need them. Either claiming objectives or shooting, then charging in (they are no slouch in close combat with their 9 attacks!)
If you find them in combat when it's your next turn you can shoot with your pistol mode to do d6 s5 ap -1 auto-hits into your opponent or you can just fly away and kill something else. Add in that if someone charges you there is a good chance that you will be able to auto hit with your flamer.
They are just so versatile against a wide range of targets.

You may find that people will advocate for the Exalted Flamer as being a superior choice, and while in many ways it is (being a character and all with same weapon load out), I find that your speed and threat radius is limited by the chaff unit that is protecting it which in turn reduces your effectiveness in controlling objectives.

Thanks for sharing! I had ruled them out of my list myself because of all the praise exalted are getting. BC's are a bit more interesting mechanics-wise so hearing they're viable is nice.

I saw Blue scribes being mentioned recently, a unit I had disregarded completely myself.

Is the biggest issue getting it inside the 12inch range of the Aura or the fact that since it can't smite a herald is just a better option?

I figure the -1 could be quite useful against a target like the Eldar, potentially losing their Doom spell on a bad roll.

Secondly I'm a bit confused by the wording on it's second ability:
When manifesting a random Tzeentch spell, does this count against the max 1 casting of every spell per turn limit?

 knas wrote:
I saw Blue scribes being mentioned recently, a unit I had disregarded completely myself.

Is the biggest issue getting it inside the 12inch range of the Aura or the fact that since it can't smite a herald is just a better option?

I figure the -1 could be quite useful against a target like the Eldar, potentially losing their Doom spell on a bad roll.

Secondly I'm a bit confused by the wording on it's second ability:
When manifesting a random Tzeentch spell, does this count against the max 1 casting of every spell per turn limit?

Hmm. Potentially viable gimmick. Not worth building a list around in their present form. Could be worth packing for Summoning. Give it a month and we’ll see where things stand, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BACK THE WARP UP. They’re a CHARACTER so can hide, and their psyker trolling & mobility have bang-on synergy with Fiends. Who can also heavily tarpit Psykers.

Depending on your meta, this could be a very nasty cat amongst the pigeons.