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I liked First Contact as a film but I felt the whole concept of a Borg Queen undermined the Borg as a threat. Nothing up to that point had indicated there was a centralised intelligence directing them. I much preferred the idea of them as a pure collective consciousness.

There kind of was a bit of precedent for the Queen with Locutus.

pgmason wrote:
I liked First Contact as a film but I felt the whole concept of a Borg Queen undermined the Borg as a threat. Nothing up to that point had indicated there was a centralised intelligence directing them. I much preferred the idea of them as a pure collective consciousness.

This is how I felt.

In my head canon the “Borg Queen” is just an aberration caused by Hugh or some other species’ attempt to sabotage the collective. The longer the Borg Queen exists, the ...how shall I put this? ...the less dangerous the Borg become. By the end of Voyager, they were basically Pakleds with a higher starting tech base.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

pgmason wrote:
I liked First Contact as a film but I felt the whole concept of a Borg Queen undermined the Borg as a threat. Nothing up to that point had indicated there was a centralised intelligence directing them. I much preferred the idea of them as a pure collective consciousness.

This is how I felt.

In my head canon the “Borg Queen” is just an aberration caused by Hugh or some other species’ attempt to sabotage the collective. The longer the Borg Queen exists, the ...how shall I put this? ...the less dangerous the Borg become. By the end of Voyager, they were basically Pakleds with a higher starting tech base.

"The Queen is smart. The Queen will make us go."

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

pgmason wrote:
I liked First Contact as a film but I felt the whole concept of a Borg Queen undermined the Borg as a threat. Nothing up to that point had indicated there was a centralised intelligence directing them. I much preferred the idea of them as a pure collective consciousness.

This is how I felt.

In my head canon the “Borg Queen” is just an aberration caused by Hugh or some other species’ attempt to sabotage the collective. The longer the Borg Queen exists, the ...how shall I put this? ...the less dangerous the Borg become. By the end of Voyager, they were basically Pakleds with a higher starting tech base.

Kinda see where people are coming from, but for me it’s a pleasant call back to the original concept where the Borgs were insectile, and summoned by those critters that Picard took care of on Earth.

And a Hive does suit a Queen. Though they should’ve left her ded, rather than butcher the Borg fully in Voyager.

I think the introduction of a Borg Queen did damage the collectivist background of the Borg somewhat, it made them more familiar and knowable and therefore less interesting.

However from a TV standpoint, I can understand why they wanted a villain for the heroes to interact with, to explain the Borgs motivations etc.

The problem with the other NTG films as I can see is that they got hooked on the whole Data and Picard relationship. The result is the rest of the cast starts stepping back in importance; they step forward; but for fans of the series we don't actually see anything new. If anything Data is actually quite bland in his quest for humanity compared to events we see in the TV series. Even first season was far more bold with his relationship with Tasha.

In the end I also think they just didn't know how to make an epic story for the cinema so we got extended TV series style episodes that retold mostly old ground. They didn't try and push somewhere new or bold and the events are mostly quite modest. Even the Romulan war story ark basically boils down to two ships fighting it out; no fleets, no governments; no real political or military pressure or build up. Just one flagship against another. They even broke immersion a little by making the Romulan ship an actual warship to the extreme It had more weapons than a Borg Cube; flights of fighters and a world destroyer weapon. It was a super doom ship - and they had one.


In the end these personal struggle stories wound up being very small scale in impact; focusing far too much on Picards demons; relationships with Data and almost excluding the rest of the crew. You got the sense that the rest of the crew was thinking and moving on to other ships and adventures and that we were left with the two who were going to remain on the Enterprise.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:


I also like how when our Wise Patriarch Father Figure dude starts acting irrationally (OK that might explain the holodeck) other characters call him out on it. And, when confronted, he stops, reflects and corrects himself. Awesome stuff, one of the best character moments in Trek.

ONly issue I had with that scene was IMO that should have been Bev. Crusher having that talk/saying that to him.

Disco S3 E5.

More and more Trek. Really feeling it’s found it’s feet with this season.

Yes, Burnham is ever present (she is the lead), but she’s not the multi-tool she was in S1 and S2.

 Kroem wrote:
I think the introduction of a Borg Queen did damage the collectivist background of the Borg somewhat, it made them more familiar and knowable and therefore less interesting.

However from a TV standpoint, I can understand why they wanted a villain for the heroes to interact with, to explain the Borgs motivations etc.

My Theory is that the Borg Queen was a result of the Borgs constant adapting. That as they continued to fight and get thier ass kicked by the federation, they adapted by creating an individual that can have creative solutions to problems.
However it came with the problem of they now have an infalliable all powerful leader....that can make disaterous mistakes(Compared the collective, which was much more relentless and methodical)
That was why the Borg where so much less of a problem in voyager, they where suffering from that adaptation horribly, but they cannot fall back from an adaptation.

Also i made it to S2 of discovery. Does the show ever get past this obsession with Micheal? IT really truly feels like she is the only main character, and other stories are just there to distract. It doesnt feel like other Treks where its an ensemble, but with the captain as a big focus. This feels like only the Science Officer is the focus. Kinda lame when Micheal isnt the great of a chracter and feeels like a fan fic insert who is the never talked about sister of Spock is kinda lame.
Now also, im not one to fuss over prequels having technology that looks different from the original. It comes with the territory of designs changing and what we want to see. I can deal with discovery haveing uniforms that are different, I can deal with the Holodeck even though it is said in TNG it is new technology(My theory is that the one Ash and Lorca used where nothing more than a very advanced video game with rudimentary AI compared to the ones in TNG)
But the stupid reason they gave that the enterprise doesnt have Hologram communication? Really?

Michael is forever the center of the universe. All things revolve around her.

Not in this episode?

She’s present, sure. But the solution isn’t her doing?

 Overread wrote:
The problem with the other NTG films as I can see is that they got hooked on the whole Data and Picard relationship. The result is the rest of the cast starts stepping back in importance; they step forward; but for fans of the series we don't actually see anything new. If anything Data is actually quite bland in his quest for humanity compared to events we see in the TV series. Even first season was far more bold with his relationship with Tasha.

In the end I also think they just didn't know how to make an epic story for the cinema so we got extended TV series style episodes that retold mostly old ground. They didn't try and push somewhere new or bold and the events are mostly quite modest. Even the Romulan war story ark basically boils down to two ships fighting it out; no fleets, no governments; no real political or military pressure or build up. Just one flagship against another. They even broke immersion a little by making the Romulan ship an actual warship to the extreme It had more weapons than a Borg Cube; flights of fighters and a world destroyer weapon. It was a super doom ship - and they had one.


In the end these personal struggle stories wound up being very small scale in impact; focusing far too much on Picards demons; relationships with Data and almost excluding the rest of the crew. You got the sense that the rest of the crew was thinking and moving on to other ships and adventures and that we were left with the two who were going to remain on the Enterprise.

The problem with the Picard/Data relationship in the movies was that they didn't have that relationship in the show. Geordi and Data were buddies, not Picard and Data. One of the biggest problems with TNG is that the crew stayed the same across all 7 seasons. In a military organization there would be promotions and reassignments. That would make it difficult to keep the same people on the same ship for 7 years, let alone a few years worth of movies too. Riker turned down how many promotions to stay on the Enterprise?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Not in this episode?

She’s present, sure. But the solution isn’t her doing?

The doctor literally turns to her and tells her only she can talk this guy down.

Yet it’s a group effort.

Can someone PLEASe explain the ending of s2 to me?
Why did they just not go back in time and yknow, stop Control from being made?
Why, when they confirmed that control was gone a nuetralized, did they have to still go forward in time?
Why do they not ever have to talk about it(Beyond the lamest reason for spock to never mention he has a sister)
And finally, DID NO ONE WRITE DOWN THE SCHEMATICS TO THE SPORE DRIVE
Atleast with Enterprise, it was a prequel so far before, it didnt intefere much with continuity.
Does S3 get better and does Micheal finally start taking back seat? Like seroisly, I hate to use this phrase, but she really in a Mary Sue. The entire Universe revolves around her. When we saw the crew say their good buys.....it didnt mean anything because we didnt get to know anyone beyond Tilly. And Tillies goodbye only meant something if you watched the Shorts. When Airam died it didnt matter because she was a drone until that episode. Only Saru mattered, for 1 episode.
Does it get better?

More of the same, only somewhat less so.

It's not fixed, by any means, but at least it's not at the same ludicrous levels as S2.

Burnham is the superstar, but it's not like she is the Second Coming all of the time. Characters that you don't know anything about and don't care about still can get written out with an overly emotional farewell.

Yeah, you're not going to see me arguing about the whole S2 time travel business - what a stupidly convoluted mess that was. How they didn't paradox everyone out of existence is a mystery.

It's an alternate timeline. Once I decided that I felt much, much better.

In the real timeline the Discovery exploded the first time they tried that spore drive thing and no one ever mentioned it again.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Can someone PLEASe explain the ending of s2 to me?
Why did they just not go back in time and yknow, stop Control from being made?
Why, when they confirmed that control was gone a nuetralized, did they have to still go forward in time?
Why do they not ever have to talk about it(Beyond the lamest reason for spock to never mention he has a sister)
And finally, DID NO ONE WRITE DOWN THE SCHEMATICS TO THE SPORE DRIVE
Atleast with Enterprise, it was a prequel so far before, it didnt intefere much with continuity.
Does S3 get better and does Micheal finally start taking back seat? Like seroisly, I hate to use this phrase, but she really in a Mary Sue. The entire Universe revolves around her. When we saw the crew say their good buys.....it didnt mean anything because we didnt get to know anyone beyond Tilly. And Tillies goodbye only meant something if you watched the Shorts. When Airam died it didnt matter because she was a drone until that episode. Only Saru mattered, for 1 episode.
Does it get better?

Season 3 seems to be a little better so far. Not perfect by any means, but they seem to be making more of an effort to include more of the crew and less of Burnham. If they keep going in that direction I think the show is looking really good.

The time travel/Control thing doesn't really make a lot of sense. I think the idea seemed to be that once the Sphere data is discovered the creation of Control (or a similar entity) is inevitable as long as the data exists. The data will not allow itself to be destroyed so they decide to remove it from the timeline by jumping forward. Most of this makes no sense. If the data itself is sentient to the point of being self-preserving and powerful enough to prevent its own destruction while also being benevolent how would it allow itself to fall into the wrong hands and lead to the destruction of all life? Why are they so confident it's only the sphere data that could lead to this inevitable future? How does shifting it forward in time help prevent this apocalyptic future rather than just shifting it forward in time?

The whole time travel plot was just a way for them to write themselves out of the corner they put themselves in by setting Discovery in the same timeframe as TOS while also needlessly intertwining the Enterprise and Discovery stories. They could have just had the confidence in their own idea that it didn't need to be so closely linked to any existing Trek, then all they needed to do was write an interesting story about why the spore drive failed and everything would have fit seamlessly together without having all this convoluted mess of a story to explain everything away.

I wonder if down the road Control and the Sphere will ties into the AIs in Picard.

Kind of doubt it.

Anybody else think this was significant, or just fan service:

StraightSilver wrote:
Anybody else think this was significant, or just fan service:

Spoiler:

Voyager-J being in the fleet - considering Janeway's cavalier attitude to the Temporal Prime Directive and fan theories of Voyager itself starting the Temporal Cold War,and the references in Discovery to Temporal Wars and ban on time travel, do we think it's significant that it's still there in the fleet? Or was it just a nice nod to the other series nd purely there because it's cool?

Probably just fan service. They needed some recognisable ship in the fleet but probably wanted to (wisely) steer clear of Enterprise. They did mention the Constitution though, which presumably would be a 30th century version of the Constitution class.

 bbb wrote:

 Overread wrote:
The problem with the other NTG films as I can see is that they got hooked on the whole Data and Picard relationship. The result is the rest of the cast starts stepping back in importance; they step forward; but for fans of the series we don't actually see anything new. If anything Data is actually quite bland in his quest for humanity compared to events we see in the TV series. Even first season was far more bold with his relationship with Tasha.

In the end I also think they just didn't know how to make an epic story for the cinema so we got extended TV series style episodes that retold mostly old ground. They didn't try and push somewhere new or bold and the events are mostly quite modest. Even the Romulan war story ark basically boils down to two ships fighting it out; no fleets, no governments; no real political or military pressure or build up. Just one flagship against another. They even broke immersion a little by making the Romulan ship an actual warship to the extreme It had more weapons than a Borg Cube; flights of fighters and a world destroyer weapon. It was a super doom ship - and they had one.


In the end these personal struggle stories wound up being very small scale in impact; focusing far too much on Picards demons; relationships with Data and almost excluding the rest of the crew. You got the sense that the rest of the crew was thinking and moving on to other ships and adventures and that we were left with the two who were going to remain on the Enterprise.

The problem with the Picard/Data relationship in the movies was that they didn't have that relationship in the show. Geordi and Data were buddies, not Picard and Data. One of the biggest problems with TNG is that the crew stayed the same across all 7 seasons. In a military organization there would be promotions and reassignments. That would make it difficult to keep the same people on the same ship for 7 years, let alone a few years worth of movies too. Riker turned down how many promotions to stay on the Enterprise?

I can see Picard having a somewhat more fatherly style relationship with Data due to Data both being a skilled crew member, but also a, at times, almost childlike learning android. I think the real issue isn't that they pushed a closer relationship through the films, but rather that it rose to dominate the films more and more. As a result the other crew were more and more pushed to the side of the story.


As for promotions I don't see that as an issue in the series to the films. First up we do see several lower members moving up. I believe Worf and Data both change ranks through the series and we did see Wesley move up until he went on his Galactic Student Gap "year". Otherwise the rest of the crew we regularly deal with are basically working in upper ranks in key positions on the flagship of the Federation. They basically are at the top of their game. So there isn't really all that much room for them to move around. 7 years isn't a huge amount of time when you reach the top; even Ricker holds his position for perhaps as long as, say, a deputy head at a school might hold until he moves to another school to replace a head there.

Character job mobility can be an issue in many series that get very long, I think Enterprise did it well in terms of the fact that it was the top position for most so moving on wasn't expected. Meanwhile DS9 achieved a more "Real" feeling by introducing two long term child characters who we see mature and rise up through different life roles. They mask the fact that the rest of the staff were basically set in their roles, even though they weren't near the top for any of them (heck first season half the top don't even want their positions - Sisko and Kira certainly didn't really want to be there at the start). We also get Worf and O'Brian both move in.

That said DS9 had a very different approach and was more bold in allowing its focus to branch out away from the captains chair to the point where not seeing Sisko for an episode doesn't feel wrong.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
It's an alternate timeline. Once I decided that I felt much, much better.

In the real timeline the Discovery exploded the first time they tried that spore drive thing and no one ever mentioned it again.

Except the issues are still there.
Spock still has a sister that was never mentioned, there was still a klingon conflict 10 years before TOS.
The problem is, discovery is fanfiction, pure and simple.
And the spore drive was not a bad idea, even for a prequel, but it needed a good reason why it was never used going forward. Most likely being, they could never find another Tardigrade, and starfleet is Iffy on the idea of making genetically engineered Navigator races to power their ships.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

Spock still has a sister that was never mentioned,

that in itself isn't a big deal. Spock has ALWAYS been tight lipped about his family. case in point, it wasn't until Surek and Amanda beamed onto the Enterprise that Spock mentioned "ohh yeah these are my parents"
Also, as much as I'm loath to even mention trek V, sybok was his half brother that likewise was never mentioned "until he came up" so Burnham not being mentioned ever by Spock is something I can accept.

So i made it to now and im kinda feeling it.
Micheal is still prominant, but i dont think she is the dirving force of the story like that last two seasons.
I wasnt feeling the "Post Apocalyptic" vibe of the season, where it seemed everyone was out for themselves, it kinda went against Star Trek and its hope for the future ideals.
But then we saw the federation, and they where working to help refugees, even in the Federations weakened state. That, no matter how bad things got, the hope and outreach was still there. Makes me very happy.

Definitely agree they’ve eased off on relying on Burnham.

Given someone referred to her as a “responsibility hoarder” in one episode, I do suspect that’s a move made in response to criticism that she was overshadowing everyone else somewhat.

Well I don't know. Even in the last episode the security officer went on the away mission because she was the same species as the race on the vault ship. Like literally the main reason she's there is for her cultural sensitivity to the people they are meeting. Then when her big moment comes up to use this said cultural knowledge...it doesn't work and then for some reason it must be Burnham again. Only Burnham can get through.

The for some reason that officer has to "give up her career" at the end. Like why wouldn't that just be considered a long term assignment? They said it would be about 5 months. Surely, not that long in the post dilithium era. Anyways, whateves at least Burnham saved the day again.

Last episode was OK. Would have liked a lot more focus on the Discovery itself, though as the storyline on the junkyard planet seemed to drag itself out a bit too much. Anyone else getting a Tyler vibe from Georgiou's weird...whatever the hell it is that's happening to her? Hopefully it's something distinct from season 1's plot.

Also, seems like Burnham got off way too lightly for what was essentially gross insubordination and dereliction of duty. Not that I expected otherwise.

Yeah. I did watch it, but it seems to be sinking into mid-season flaccidity.

Given the uptick in the rest of season 3, I’m hoping this is just a blip.