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MaxT wrote:

 lessthanjeff wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I must still be missing something then. You can get more wolf scouts and attached captains with more wargear than you can get space marine models.

Space Marines Scouts can only go up to 10 models for 10 power level.

Wolf Scouts get 10 models as well with seemingly the same upgrade options for 8 power level. As a bonus, you can add an 11th model who gets even more options to take the unit to power level 10.

You are not missing it.
My guess for the lower cost is you can not max out the Pack and put it in a Transport other than a Stormwolf. They do get 'Behind Enemy Lines' But not 'Combat Squads' or 'Concealed Position'.
Scouts can take any Space Marine Transport at full Strength including Razorbacks and Land Speeder Storms if they Combat Squad'.

But that is just a theory.

Ah, I did miss the concealed position difference. Thanks. The unit size and transport option stuff seem like they would be weird things to adjust costs based on, but maybe. Something just seems off to me about space marine scouts costing more than regular tacticals, other scout variants, or even specialist units like assault squads, but maybe that's all it is.

Concealed Positions is a very, very powerful ability in 8th with the way the various deep strike rules work nowadays. Scouts are well worth their cost IMO.

And the ability to choose sniper rifles might be the othere reason they cost more than tacs

MaxT wrote:

 lessthanjeff wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I must still be missing something then. You can get more wolf scouts and attached captains with more wargear than you can get space marine models.

Space Marines Scouts can only go up to 10 models for 10 power level.

Wolf Scouts get 10 models as well with seemingly the same upgrade options for 8 power level. As a bonus, you can add an 11th model who gets even more options to take the unit to power level 10.

You are not missing it.
My guess for the lower cost is you can not max out the Pack and put it in a Transport other than a Stormwolf. They do get 'Behind Enemy Lines' But not 'Combat Squads' or 'Concealed Position'.
Scouts can take any Space Marine Transport at full Strength including Razorbacks and Land Speeder Storms if they Combat Squad'.

But that is just a theory.

Ah, I did miss the concealed position difference. Thanks. The unit size and transport option stuff seem like they would be weird things to adjust costs based on, but maybe. Something just seems off to me about space marine scouts costing more than regular tacticals, other scout variants, or even specialist units like assault squads, but maybe that's all it is.

Concealed Positions is a very, very powerful ability in 8th with the way the various deep strike rules work nowadays. Scouts are well worth their cost IMO.

It is very powerful, but that should be factored into the cost of the model then and wolf scouts and space marine scouts have the same point cost. They also have a lower point cost than tacticals, so I'm not seeing how that would make the power cost more but it seems to make sense to you guys.

I think it comes down to Scouts can deploy closer to the enemy and pull off a 2+ Save real easy. Also rather than increase the cost of the Sniper Rifle they just increased the price of the scout.
On the firepower side of things, scouts can put out the same Power as a Tactical Squad, get into a better position to Assault and Pick of character. That gives them a lot of flexibility, something that points might be accounting for.

From Warhammer Community:



The 24-hour long stream will be broadcast live to Warhammer TV’s Facebook page, meaning that it will be free to watch, and will run from 00:00:01 on Saturday morning to 23:59:59 on Saturday night, local UK time (BST).

Hosted by Warhammer Live’s Rob and Eddie (kept functioning with an appropriate and continuous supply of caffeinated beverages) and featuring guest players from the Games Workshop studio and the community, this will be a show to remember.

We’ll be kicking things off in the early hours of Saturday with an appearance from Pete Foley, manager of the Warhammer Studio Team and avid Warhammer 40,000 fan. Join us for an insight into the principles behind the new edition.

Then it’s straight into gaming, and we’re very thankful to have special guest players from the newly-founded Triumvirate podcast, who will be battling through the night and bringing you some great games of Warhammer 40,000 into the early hours.

As the world starts to wake up to the new Warhammer 40,000, we’ll be bringing you live reports from Warhammer and Games Workshop stores across the world, letting you celebrate the launch as it occurs in each time zone – from Australia through Asia, Europe, Canada and the US – this is going to be a truly global event!

Throughout the day, the studio team who worked on the new Warhammer 40,000 will be joining us to chat about their part in project, and what they’re excited about with the new game, background and miniatures.

Of course, there will be plenty of games too – LOADS of games. More games than is reasonable to play in a day.

We’re delighted to be joined by guest players from across the Warhammer 40,000 community, including Paul from the Forge the Narrative podcast, and the team from the Tabletop Tactics youtube channel.

So, join us this Saturday, on the Warhammer TV Facebook page, to tune in to the biggest Warhammer 40,000 live release event ever!*

*Partly because we haven’t done one before, but regardless, it’s going to be awesome.

 Anpu42 wrote:
[spoiler]
I think it comes down to Scouts can deploy closer to the enemy and pull off a 2+ Save real easy. Also rather than increase the cost of the Sniper Rifle they just increased the price of the scout.
On the firepower side of things, scouts can put out the same Power as a Tactical Squad, get into a better position to Assault and Pick of character. That gives them a lot of flexibility, something that points might be accounting for.

Let me just make sure I'm explaining my concern correctly because I think there might be a misunderstanding here.

If you're comparing a space marine scout to a tactical squad, it costs less points but more power. That should mean by themselves that they are worse (and they do have a worse save) but can be kitted out to be better (giving them cloaks and sniper rifles for example, but they can both take a heavy weapon like a missile launcher). So everything seems good so far, but now lets look at the wolf scouts.

Compare a wolf scout unit to a tactical squad (or grey hunters or whatever), they cost less points and less power. The wolf scouts get the same upgrade options to go for camo cloaks, sniper rifles, and instead of just getting one heavy/special weapon option you actually get 2 so they have more upgrade options to be better though. That should make their power level go up at least as much as the scouts do but they don't. They get more upgrades than the space marine scouts and that doesn't seem reflected in their power level the same way it is for the space marine scouts.

Special rules and transport options can't be the justification for the difference because then that would be reflected in the point cost as well but space marine scouts and wolf scouts both cost 11 points so they've been determined to be equal to each other. The only difference has to be coming from the wargear options but it's working backwards from how it's described. Taking more upgrades and special options is costing less power level.

 lessthanjeff wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
[spoiler]
I think it comes down to Scouts can deploy closer to the enemy and pull off a 2+ Save real easy. Also rather than increase the cost of the Sniper Rifle they just increased the price of the scout.
On the firepower side of things, scouts can put out the same Power as a Tactical Squad, get into a better position to Assault and Pick of character. That gives them a lot of flexibility, something that points might be accounting for.

Let me just make sure I'm explaining my concern correctly because I think there might be a misunderstanding here.

If you're comparing a space marine scout to a tactical squad, it costs less points but more power. That should mean by themselves that they are worse (and they do have a worse save) but can be kitted out to be better (giving them cloaks and sniper rifles for example, but they can both take a heavy weapon like a missile launcher). So everything seems good so far, but now lets look at the wolf scouts.

Compare a wolf scout unit to a tactical squad (or grey hunters or whatever), they cost less points and less power. The wolf scouts get the same upgrade options to go for camo cloaks, sniper rifles, and instead of just getting one heavy/special weapon option you actually get 2 so they have more upgrade options to be better though. That should make their power level go up at least as much as the scouts do but they don't. They get more upgrades than the space marine scouts and that doesn't seem reflected in their power level the same way it is for the space marine scouts.

Special rules and transport options can't be the justification for the difference because then that would be reflected in the point cost as well but space marine scouts and wolf scouts both cost 11 points so they've been determined to be equal to each other. The only difference has to be coming from the wargear options but it's working backwards from how it's described. Taking more upgrades and special options is costing less power level.

Please take this talk on scouts to the non rumors and news section. Doesent belong here. Tactics would be better.

As for the stream, kinda a fail. You have your game released on Saturday. They will be out playing it, or at a game store etc. I cant see many people sitting and watching others play when they have the game themselves.

str00dles1 wrote:



Please take this talk on scouts to the non rumors and news section. Doesent belong here. Tactics would be better.

As for the stream, kinda a fail. You have your game released on Saturday. They will be out playing it, or at a game store etc. I cant see many people sitting and watching others play when they have the game themselves.

If that's the better place for it I'd be happy to comply but I don't feel like it's a tactics discussion. That seems more reserved for how to use the units in a game. I brought it here because it seems more like news about how costing of units works and if it is priced incorrectly I'm curious how that would be handled. Point costs can be adjusted as far as we know, but I don't know how they can adjust power levels if those are going to be printed on the data sheets themselves. They only described changing the pages of point levels in the back.

No, spamming two pages of tangential drama about one unit is not news.

Regarding the stream, I think it's fine. You're supposed to be home building your new Primaris marines that day.

 lessthanjeff wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:



Please take this talk on scouts to the non rumors and news section. Doesent belong here. Tactics would be better.

As for the stream, kinda a fail. You have your game released on Saturday. They will be out playing it, or at a game store etc. I cant see many people sitting and watching others play when they have the game themselves.

If that's the better place for it I'd be happy to comply but I don't feel like it's a tactics discussion. That seems more reserved for how to use the units in a game. I brought it here because it seems more like news about how costing of units works and if it is priced incorrectly I'm curious how that would be handled. Point costs can be adjusted as far as we know, but I don't know how they can adjust power levels if those are going to be printed on the data sheets themselves. They only described changing the pages of point levels in the back.

Discussing the merits of a system, or the individual units effectiveness under the system in a prolonged fashion, is undoubtedly not a topic for news and rumours

Right?

So, if we could just move on, and stop posting about how its off topic, leading to even more off topic, etc. etc.?

Thanks!

Snowflake Marines focus article.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/06/14/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-non-codex-space-marines/

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I'm not trying to discuss a tactical comparison or the strengths of two specific units and when/where to use them. I'm trying to figure out how the power levels and points costs of all units work in the new game using a specific example of two units that should be near identical.

If you have a better place for me to ask that then please direct me but the suggestion of tactics seems like a worse place. To me, how a new costing system like power level works for a game that hasn't come out yet sounds more like news/rumors than tactics.

The rules are out in the wild already. Take it to 40k General Discussion.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I'm not trying to discuss a tactical comparison or the strengths of two specific units and when/where to use them. I'm trying to figure out how the power levels and points costs of all units work in the new game using a specific example of two units that should be near identical.

If you have a better place for me to ask that then please direct me but the suggestion of tactics seems like a worse place. To me, how a new costing system like power level works for a game that hasn't come out yet sounds more like news/rumors than tactics.

Actually, it sounds more like a 40K General Discussion topic than News or Rumor.

 JohnU wrote:
Snowflake Marines focus article.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/06/14/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-non-codex-space-marines/

Great, now I have to make a bunch of Marines is pale blue/White armor with a Snow flake on the shoulder pads...

 Anpu42 wrote:

 JohnU wrote:
Snowflake Marines focus article.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/06/14/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-non-codex-space-marines/

Great, now I have to make a bunch of Marines is pale blue/White armor with a Snow flake on the shoulder pads...

Dammit that sounds absolutely hilarious. Now I need to get a starter set...

They were just reading entries from the Forgeworld indexes on the stream and the bit I caught was the Mastodon carries 40 peeps and the Hellforged Mastodon has the Machina Malifica rule that the Leviathan Dreadnought does as well as when a unit disembarks, on a 1, it eats one of the models in the unit and triggers Machina Malifica.

Well that's me ebaying my dreadclaws. I thought they would get rid of that stupid eats someone rule this time round.

skarsol wrote:
They were just reading entries from the Forgeworld indexes on the stream and the bit I caught was the Mastodon carries 40 peeps and the Hellforged Mastodon has the Machina Malifica rule that the Leviathan Dreadnought does as well as when a unit disembarks, on a 1, it eats one of the models in the unit and triggers Machina Malifica.

Anything on crons and orks?

 Anpu42 wrote:

 JohnU wrote:
Snowflake Marines focus article.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/06/14/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-non-codex-space-marines/

Great, now I have to make a bunch of Marines is pale blue/White armor with a Snow flake on the shoulder pads...

Ha! That was my first DIY Chapter the "Snow Angels"! White armor was a bad choice.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 JohnU wrote:
Snowflake Marines focus article.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/06/14/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-non-codex-space-marines/

Great, now I have to make a bunch of Marines is pale blue/White armor with a Snow flake on the shoulder pads...

Ha! That was my first DIY Chapter the "Snow Angels"! White armor was a bad choice.

And think painting the snow flakes by hand won't mater as much as each snow flake is supposed to be different.

I have to say that I am surprised by some of the units they did and did not include in the Forgeworld index books. The Necron have rules for their Pylon, but not the smaller pylon things that came out a few years ago.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I have to say that I am surprised by some of the units they did and did not include in the Forgeworld index books. The Necron have rules for their Pylon, but not the smaller pylon things that came out a few years ago.

Fear not for they do, it's called the Sentry Pylon, it's right under the Night Shroud

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

skarsol wrote:
They were just reading entries from the Forgeworld indexes on the stream and the bit I caught was the Mastodon carries 40 peeps and the Hellforged Mastodon has the Machina Malifica rule that the Leviathan Dreadnought does as well as when a unit disembarks, on a 1, it eats one of the models in the unit and triggers Machina Malifica.

Anything on crons and orks?

No, they only had the Imperium and Chaos books.

skarsol wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

skarsol wrote:
They were just reading entries from the Forgeworld indexes on the stream and the bit I caught was the Mastodon carries 40 peeps and the Hellforged Mastodon has the Machina Malifica rule that the Leviathan Dreadnought does as well as when a unit disembarks, on a 1, it eats one of the models in the unit and triggers Machina Malifica.

Anything on crons and orks?

No, they only had the Imperium and Chaos books.

I'd've thought so. Anything on Titans?

 cuda1179 wrote:
I have to say that I am surprised by some of the units they did and did not include in the Forgeworld index books. The Necron have rules for their Pylon, but not the smaller pylon things that came out a few years ago.

Unless I'm mistaken, the Sentry Pylons are the smaller pylons you're talking about and they are in the index (two of the three, anyway).

1 day, 17 hours, and 7 minutes until I am in store picking up my half of Dark Imperium!!

i know its like a few days to go but i'm suprised no one has got their hands on any of the FW index books yet?!

skarsol wrote:
They were just reading entries from the Forgeworld indexes on the stream and the bit I caught was the Mastodon carries 40 peeps and the Hellforged Mastodon has the Machina Malifica rule that the Leviathan Dreadnought does as well as when a unit disembarks, on a 1, it eats one of the models in the unit and triggers Machina Malifica.

If that's true, filling this thing with cultists and having them pop in and out every turn to have them die and heal it will be very powerful.

 Ghaz wrote:

Thanks for posting. Fantastic