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... and he's got the new Blood Angels codex and an army to match. Assuming you have Nidzilla, or Mech Eldar, or IW or any of the other power builds at the moment, are you concerned? In case you haven't seen the new codex, think 45-50 jump packers backed up with either land speeders or Baal Predators. 6-8 hidden fists, half dozen meltas, and a few flamers and plasma thrown in for good measure?

A couple of requests:

1) If you do believe they are a contender, specify why they counter the other lists mentioned.
2) If you don't believe they are contenders, specify why army X beats the snot out of it.
3) Are they as much a contender as the old Blood Angels?

No. I think both Nidzilla and Mech Eldar will be able to compensate. Nidzilla just needs to overshoot the hidden fists. Nids usually have just enough small bugs or Raveners to intercept threats until they can focus fire. Escalation poses real problems for BA builds based around Jump packers and tanks. Mech eldar just need to take out the Baals and they will do just fine also. Once those twin Cannons are destroyed the probability of glances go way down. Fists just are not a reliable way to bring down skimmers but what is.  Just some prelimanary thoughts at first glance.

@Sgt_Scruffy, Has anyone actually seen this new codex? The White Dwarf comes out here at the end of May, right? So, what do we really know for sure About the BA's?

Darrian

The list got leaked. Someone scanned an advance copy of white dwarf (as in the format, font, artwork and everything look like white dwarf) and posted it online... it has since been taken down. I managed to download it before the lock as did a few other people (Da Boss for one). It looks very genuine unless someone simply has WAY too much time on their hands.

This all came up in the Blood Angels discussion over in News and Rumors. So, yes, people have seen it.

I'll send it to you if you pm me with an email address...

As the good SGT put out, there is a copy of the WD BA List floating around. I too was able to get a copy before the link went dead.

It's either the real deal or an elaborate prank. I'm leaning towards the real... Since it hasn't offically been released though, I don't think anyone needs to worry about facing it just yet.

I doubt you will see more than 30 jump packs in competitive lists and that is counting the death company.

You should see a lot of meltas though and about the same number of assault cannons you normally see in BA armies.

45-50?  I wish.  With the points increase we'll be hard pressed to field more than 35, including DC.  Less if you want all the (effective) toys.

225 - Mephiston
125 - Chaplain Lamartes

220 - Vet assault squad - 6 man, pfist, 2xmelta
220 - Vet assault squad - 6 man, pfist, 2xmelta
40 - 8 man Death Company with Jump packs

180 - 5 man assault squad, w/ p fist and plasma pistol
180 - 5 man assault squad, w/ p fist and plasma pistol
165 - 5 man assault squad, w/ p fist
165 - 5 man assault squad, w/ p fist
165 - 5 man assault squad, w/ p fist
165 - 5 man assault squad, w/ p fist

1850 list. 51 jump packers and Mephiston (who flies with his psychic power) coming at ya. Although I think a stronger build will include a couple drop pods or rhinos to provide cover for your assault troops.

In answer to the original question, I think Lemartes is largely correct. Eldar have a pretty easy time of knocking out the anti-tank, and then can float around playing point denial / objective grabber. Nidzilla may be a little tighter, just because there are so many assault squads, but I'd want to playtest it to find out.

How can you take a Veteran Sergeant with a Fist in both halves of the combat squad Ebon?

He can't.

Fortunately he took 6 squads of 5 and gave a PF to each of the SGTs which is legal.

Posted By Asmodai on 05/09/2007 11:46 AM
How can you take a Veteran Sergeant with a Fist in both halves of the combat squad Ebon?

Judging by the points spread, it doesnt appear that he is using combat squads. (140 pts for the assault squad and 25 pts for the fist)

Indeed there is a Blood angel codex that got leaked. Judging by the quality (and the similarity to the other GW codex PDF's) I am inlcined to beleive that it is a true leaked copy.

Gah. Already dead.

I managed to fit 41 jump packers and 3 Baal Predators in a quick 1750 Point list. You could probably squeeze another 10-12 jump packers in if you drop the 375 points for the Baal Predators so 40-55 jump packers isn't unheard of.

As a note, due to the large number of requests, please be patient for those who have PM'd me.

Others pointed out I didn't use the combat squad rule for my assault squads. I think it is particularly poorly suited for them. If you look at the tactical squad, it makes sense to buy the 5 extra marines to get access to the heavy weapon in some cases. But the assault squad gets no additional options for going to ten guys. You pay full price for them, and you can't even get an additional Power fist, which is bullocks.

Heck, if you take the jump packs off, you still get screwed. 5 guys gets you a rhino or drop pod, 10 guys gets you a rhino or drop pod. For a moment I considered doing a bunch of drop pod assault squads, thinking I was getting them at a discount. And yes compared to tactical BA squads, the assault squad can get them a lot cheaper. But it ain't cheaper than a codex marine squad given the ccw/bp trait. And those guys get to take two special weapons w/ cleanse instead of just expensive plasma pistols.

BA have a lot of cool stuff going for them, but they aren't as nasty as they used to be.

The only reason to drop the packs for the pod is on the Vet Assault Squad IMO.

That sounds like a lot of fun, an entire jumppacking space marine army.  I would prefer to face that than a droppod army any day.  Plus, GW actually made models for jumppacks, so people won't glue pvc piping to their models and I can actually pretend I'm playing a game that doesn't look slowed.

- Oaka

Oh, and don't forget the 7-11 Big Gulps.  I love rolling dice to see if I can damage a fountain beverage with a Crimson Fists symbol on it.

For the record I wouldn't use Iron Warriors, Siren Prince, etc.

But on the question of would they fear the new BA?

Pretty bluntly no, they will welcome it.

Old BA where broken essentially (just like them), every marine had 3pts of free Furious Charge. The Death Company drained roughly 15pts per model from the rest of the army for a unit easily worth 40pts per model- for a net 25pts of free stuff per model.

This roughly translated at a 1500pts tournament to you facing a 1700pts army at least. Hence the BA player had a significant head start.

Now they have been hit with the DA stick, though not as badly. No more 6xman las/plas, more expensive Tornados, more expensive extra armour of Predators. No more Fury Librarian. No more turning a naked Scout Sgt of 26pts into a close combat monster worth 55pts (DC with fist). The Death Company are seriously restricted by only 1 per unit bought, with a cost of 30pts per DC, still cheaper than they are worth though.

If someone turned up with an army with say 2 Predators, 2 Tornados, a Chaplain- he could cram in 20 Assault Marines at best. So he's brought a load of very expensive Marines with no firepower that die just as easily to Obliterator/ Skimmer/ Daemon Prince/ Plasma/ etc. Good luck to him.

Actually, You can take 3 Baal Predators and a chaplain and still get 42 assault marines (mostly vets and death company) @ 1750.

That's great but you'd be 250pts over in most tournaments near me. 1500pts.

Besides for your extra 250pts of Assault Marines I would take 250pts of cheaper Tornados, more Oblits, more Leman Russ, more bling on a Siren Prince, etc

The new BA will be a mere shadow of their former beardy glory. BA players will look longingly at the top tables from afar, remembering the old days when they had a broken Codex.

Spamming Assault Marines just doesn't sound in any way scary or power gamery. They are dedicated close combat in a tournament setting where firepower and mobility (Skimmer Tanks mostly) are all powerful. They are overpriced Marines in a tournament setting where everyone tailors to wipe out Marines as efficiently as possible.

I was posting a summary of the new BA rules on the local players forum and I came to the conclusion that at 1500 Points, the Blood Angels are pretty well Balanced. If you go for the Jump Pack spam (and why wouldn't you?) you're going to be left without support. There is no more Las/Plas, you go AM heavy. You're either taking Devastators for good support, or you're taking 3 Baal Predators which are nice, but are still AV13 Tanks.

Mephiston is like the epitome of this problem for BA players. He's so good it's insane, and he'd almost be the default HQ choice if it weren't for the Death Company. For that you're taking Lemartes (because he's 5 points more than the cheaper chaplain and a whole lot better); so the problem is you really have to be playing a higher point game with Blood Angels to cram the two characters in there, at 1500 if you go for Mephiston you lose out on a lot of the rest of the army's options.

It's that way for everything. You can't cut costs by cutting down on the # of Marines, and PF and Plasma Pistols are so expensive, that each squad costs quite a bit even for 5 guys (should you try to spam multiple small units).

Amazingly, I really think that the BA worked out pretty balanced at 1500 Points. I'm not sure you can make a list that outright screams "broken" at that points level.

Which is probably a good thing really.

Someone will scream 'broken' regardless though.

Yeah, the guy with Static Tau.

I'm really pleased with the BA codex... reminds me of the old "angels of death" codex. They got nerfed, but not that nerfed. I think that they are now a second tier army- not bad- but probably not top of the heap. I think Iron Warriors are now the ones who need the nerf bat the most (which apparently they will)

Not really worried about all those 5 man lists. Overkill the unit and always make the vet take a test. He'll be down a few fists in no time.

I actually didn't go the 5 man list route - 3x8 Veteran Assault Marine squads, 10 man Death Company, 2x5 Assault Marine squads, and either 3 Baal Preds, a couple of Dev squads, or Another 10 Man Assault Squad. If you shoot at the 5 man squads you are leaving the best stuff alone.

Since BA seem to be following the trend set by DA, if the two of them faced off at 1500 pts, would one side be horribly overpowered?

I haven't read the BA WD-Codex, but it looks like they would probably be somewhat balanced (with the scale tipped more on the BA side). If all codexes from here on out follow suit, I think the game as a whole is about to get a lot better. I'm curious now to see C:CSM and see how it lines up w/ BA and DA.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

If opponent walks up with Mephiston and Corbulo, you've got to face a flying character with I7, 6-8 attacks with a WS6 S6 force weapon. And you can't shoot at him. That could cause a few problems for some armies, especially Nidzilla.

Hmmm...
8 attacks, 4.666 hits, 2.3333 wound, no saves.

Fex hits back, 2 attacks, 1 hit, .83333 hit, no saves

Next turn, stealers trounce Mephiston.

And Corbulo is also in range of the dakkafexes.....

force weapon... fex is facing a nasty amount of pain when that physic test is rolled and he it dies before it gets to return its own attacks...

Posted By 01777 on 05/18/2007 5:49 AM
force weapon... fex is facing a nasty amount of pain when that physic test is rolled and he it dies before it gets to return its own attacks...

Can't remeber the specific wording for force waepons - is it not just instant death, to which the carnie will be fine against if synapse is around.