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I’m entering into a tournament in two weeks time, and there’s a good chance there will be one player using Kroak. Yay.

Went to a small tournament yesterday with my iizards. It was billed as a lighter event so I took just a slann and a astrolith for summoning (no engine, no cogs) ), a sunclaw battalion with 90 saurus, 4 razordons, and a carno scar vet.

Summoning didn't do much but it normally added a stegadon or replaced my lost scar vet. But since I deliberately nerfed it I didn't expect it to do to much. The true ugly is the the still available conga lines. Saurus buffed up can eat most things in the game with 20-25 of their models. Leaving a lot of available models to daisy chain.

Overall after playing it with just light summoning amd never being 8n danger of losing a game I'd say seraphon are going to be one of, if not the, best armies until the next ghb or until they make adjustments. They're so good I won't take them to local events that aren't 2 day events.

They are pretty dominant here. Competitive minded players maxing their lists are starting to gravitate toward kroak lists. We have three of them now where before it was just the one and so far they haven't lost a game yet.

I'm a bit surprised that kroak lists are working. I mean, with the Lens being available I wouldn't think anyone but daemon armies would have issues with Kroak.

Not that Seraphon aren't over the top I just didn't think Kroak would be the issue because of the lens. And I haven't seen the summoning go crazy but maybe that's it.

People around here are already seeing a drop off in mortal wound overdose armies (magic or mundane) because of the lens unless they have a way of killing a character at range which is actually pretty limited.

Because at least on a local level not everyone is taking the lense. And if they do, the kroak army just turns into a massive summoning battery and they win based off creating a 3000 vs 2000 point game.

The only real viable counters to this list so far include mandatory lense and having an army that can spam summon as well. Other than other lizardmen, that is a death army or a tzeentch army (right now from what I can tell)

auticus wrote:
Because at least on a local level not everyone is taking the lense. And if they do, the kroak army just turns into a massive summoning battery and they win based off creating a 3000 vs 2000 point game.

The only real viable counters to this list so far include mandatory lense and having an army that can spam summon as well. Other than other lizardmen, that is a death army or a tzeentch army (right now from what I can tell)

I think a fast hard hitting army with the lens could carry it thru. Nighthaunt, Stormcast, and Daughters are all examples depending on what comes with Kroak. With Kroak summoning with cogs and an astrolith you get 16+d3 so a decent chance at summoning 180pts per turn. That's solid but I think a lot of lists could smash thru the protection or drop Kroak. Add in that if he's the general you also aren't getting great rememberer which is huge I think nowawadays. Honestly I'd be gravitating toward this if i wanted to go nuts on summoning and have a solid hitting core to summon around. Second item to be determined.;

Slaan General w/Great Remember
Starpriest
Starpriest
Astrolith
Engine of the Gods w/Lens
Sunblood
40 Saurus w/Spears
40 Saurus w/Spears
10 Saurus w/Spears
Sunclaw Host
Cogs & Balewind

To me this is the no friends list. It'll summon well over 1k in a 5 turn game. Hits like a truck against most armies. It doesn't have kroaks spell which is nasty again non-lens armies but it's probably better at top tables where the lens is likely to show up. Essentially where I would personally start and something that will never see a table in a 3 round event.

 Glane wrote:

auticus wrote:
I think because the seraphon now have the stain of being a power gamer army he doesn't want people to say he is only winning because he's playing a broken army.

I think to get around the Kroak issue without hammering the rest of the game the easiest event modification would simply be "Kroak follows the rules of one for his abilities like everyone else".

I play a full Saurus list with no summoning. If someone wants to call that power gaming, then they're welcome to try.

If someone is claiming they won't play a faction because they're easy mode due to one particular strategy, then they can always just not use that strategy.

People playing non-busted Tzeentch lists got the same treatment last edition. If they played a match and lost it was 'good on you for bringing non-cheese Tzeentch' but if they played a match and won it was 'oh you just brought Tzeentch' even if they brought a completely toned-back one. The powergamer army will get that treatment even if it is deliberately toned back. That the player in question doesn't want to deal with it is a perfectly valid preference, pretending that not using the cheese methods protects from that stigma is silly.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Glane wrote:

auticus wrote:
I think because the seraphon now have the stain of being a power gamer army he doesn't want people to say he is only winning because he's playing a broken army.

I think to get around the Kroak issue without hammering the rest of the game the easiest event modification would simply be "Kroak follows the rules of one for his abilities like everyone else".

I play a full Saurus list with no summoning. If someone wants to call that power gaming, then they're welcome to try.

If someone is claiming they won't play a faction because they're easy mode due to one particular strategy, then they can always just not use that strategy.

People playing non-busted Tzeentch lists got the same treatment last edition. If they played a match and lost it was 'good on you for bringing non-cheese Tzeentch' but if they played a match and won it was 'oh you just brought Tzeentch' even if they brought a completely toned-back one. The powergamer army will get that treatment even if it is deliberately toned back. That the player in question doesn't want to deal with it is a perfectly valid preference, pretending that not using the cheese methods protects from that stigma is silly.

I had to hear the same thing playing Cryx for a long time. It’s gotten to where the vast majority of games I play I gravitate towards the underdog factions and models just so I’m not constantly having my victories be dismissed. I’m still sticking with Sylvaneth though because the models are just too stupid cool.

 AduroT wrote:

I had to hear the same thing playing Cryx for a long time. It’s gotten to where the vast majority of games I play I gravitate towards the underdog factions and models just so I’m not constantly having my victories be dismissed. I’m still sticking with Sylvaneth though because the models are just too stupid cool.

I had someone do that to me on my third game with my Idoneth. Not someone I care to play usually, but didn't really get a choice as it was a Path to Glory event and matches were getting handed out, not chosen. The whole game was just nonstop "Of course they have a special rule..." kind of complaining.

I literally handed him my warscroll cards so that he could see what things do at the outset of the game. Told him to keep them over on his side so he had a point of reference. Yet he still managed to be surprised by the King dealing 3 damage a hit with his polearm on the turn he charged, that the Soulrender brings back Namarti, etc.

I do definitely get that reaction to the Wyldwoods too. Cast a spell near them and they might kill you. Run thru them and they might kill you. Ancient has a spell that will make them kill you. Dryads get harder to hit for being near them. A Wraith will spawn more Dryads in them. They teleport from one to another. Wych’s get bonuses to hit you if she’s near them. Some of my healing effects are stronger if I’m near them. I do like the idea of them but they probably tied way too many special rules to them.

 AduroT wrote:
I do definitely get that reaction to the Wyldwoods too. Cast a spell near them and they might kill you. Run thru them and they might kill you. Ancient has a spell that will make them kill you. Dryads get harder to hit for being near them. A Wraith will spawn more Dryads in them. They teleport from one to another. Wych’s get bonuses to hit you if she’s near them. Some of my healing effects are stronger if I’m near them. I do like the idea of them but they probably tied way too many special rules to them.

Having that many rules is pretty wyld.

Thats definitely a resounding complaint with many people about AOS. There are too many rules.

Remember when the amount of rules that were there was considered by most to be next to none?

If there's any army who's gameplay probably should be massively centered around a terrain piece, I'd think its the living tree people.

 AduroT wrote:
I do definitely get that reaction to the Wyldwoods too. Cast a spell near them and they might kill you. Run thru them and they might kill you. Ancient has a spell that will make them kill you. Dryads get harder to hit for being near them. A Wraith will spawn more Dryads in them. They teleport from one to another. Wych’s get bonuses to hit you if she’s near them. Some of my healing effects are stronger if I’m near them. I do like the idea of them but they probably tied way too many special rules to them.

I mean, without the forests you have no trait. Sylvaneth have everything tied to the forests currently

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
I do definitely get that reaction to the Wyldwoods too. Cast a spell near them and they might kill you. Run thru them and they might kill you. Ancient has a spell that will make them kill you. Dryads get harder to hit for being near them. A Wraith will spawn more Dryads in them. They teleport from one to another. Wych’s get bonuses to hit you if she’s near them. Some of my healing effects are stronger if I’m near them. I do like the idea of them but they probably tied way too many special rules to them.

I mean, without the forests you have no trait. Sylvaneth have everything tied to the forests currently

IMO, that's how it should be.

Oh, I agree. It's just when people complain about the trees, they don't realize that that's really all they have going.

Well, that and some pretty potent datasheets.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Remember when the amount of rules that were there was considered by most to be next to none?

People are referring to the warscrolls; there are a large number of special rules that hit the point of being complex without actually adding to the gameplay. Take Sequitors for example; is the unit really more fun as a result of that many special things? From my perspective the warscroll would be better designed (sidenote: and balanced) with just the channeling and dumping all the extra equipment or just the equipment and removing the channeling. Castigators or the ballista are a good example of 'butter zone' complexity where they have one special thing (because they are specialist units) and that's it. GW seems to have forgotten that a unit doesn't need a unique gimmick to be cool and that an army is more fun/engaging when some stuff doesn't have anything fancy; when every single unit has it's own special ability then it dilutes the significance & fun for all of them while making the game more tedious to play. I also feel that special abilities shared across multiple units in a faction is a much smoother way of doing things than every one being different. Many factions, for example, have their music/standards/shields do the same thing across the faction and I believe AoS would be improved if special rules went more in that direction. Like multiple Sacrosanct units having a channeling ability with the same functionality even if the exact effect is customized for the unit. Compare to Liberators get +1 to hit big stuff, Judicators get re-rolls against Chaos, Protectors do bonus damage to monsters on wounds of 6, Decimators nerf enemy bravery, etc... Wouldn't it be nice if they just had a "favored opponent" rule that, say, gave re-roll hits of 1 against a certain type of target with the specific target being different for each unit? The effect is the same and easy to remember, each unit still gets it's own flavor, and the game flows much better for everyone involved.

To give GW credit there are plenty of places where rules have been designed as such and from my experience these factions/units are just more fun to have on the table as a result.

 Fafnir wrote:
Well, that and some pretty potent datasheets.

There's alarielle after the summoning and command ability changes and bow hunters? Tree Revenants? Treelords?

Dryads are too fragile without reliable cover and the -1, spite revenants are complete garbage anyways, melee hunters are too slow, durthu is too slow, ancient has half its warscroll dedicated to wood interaction and loses out on offensive stats as a price, wraith needs woods, wych needs to get into position first.

That is a pessimistic view on Sylvaneth warscrolls that ignores numerous strengths.

Their strengths are mostly tied to the woods, I'm saying that they don't have a whole lot if the woods are removed, since a lot of people complain the woods add too much.

The annoying part is when it comes to setting up terrain. Trying to find the right balance when the Sylvaneth player needs open spaces to put their Woods down.

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
Well, that and some pretty potent datasheets.

There's alarielle after the summoning and command ability changes and bow hunters? Tree Revenants? Treelords?

Dryads are too fragile without reliable cover and the -1, spite revenants are complete garbage anyways, melee hunters are too slow, durthu is too slow, ancient has half its warscroll dedicated to wood interaction and loses out on offensive stats as a price, wraith needs woods, wych needs to get into position first.

You obviously havent played dreadwood where its one drop, dirthu re-sets up 6" away from your unit with the ghyrestrike (+1h/+1W), with a 3+ rerolling 1s...so yeah lol ok.

Back to the topic of countering Kroak, what about the Malevolent Maelstrom? Gives you a second chance to unbind, and you plop in right next to Kroak and you now have a deterrent in that every spell he casts and every unit he destroys near the Maelstom gets it that much closer to going boom. You still have to overcome what is likely a really high casting value from Kroak, and it's only d3 MW when it pops, but at least it's something.

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
Well, that and some pretty potent datasheets.

There's alarielle after the summoning and command ability changes and bow hunters? Tree Revenants? Treelords?

Dryads are too fragile without reliable cover and the -1, spite revenants are complete garbage anyways, melee hunters are too slow, durthu is too slow, ancient has half its warscroll dedicated to wood interaction and loses out on offensive stats as a price, wraith needs woods, wych needs to get into position first.

You obviously havent played dreadwood where its one drop, dirthu re-sets up 6" away from your unit with the ghyrestrike (+1h/+1W), with a 3+ rerolling 1s...so yeah lol ok.

So your opponent can use chaf to screen his units and then just blast him with spells? People very much screen characters and good stuff if they deploy normally.

Also taking ghyrstike lol. Take lens instead and have it be useful

One thing I just happened to notice that's really good is that GH2018 changed Woods to actually block LOS at long last! I had not noticed this before today.

Models are not visible to each other if an imaginary straight line 1mm wide drawn between the closest points of the two models crosses over more than 1" of the base of a Citadel Wood. This scenery rule does not apply if either model can fly.

The FAQ today also stated that Sylvaneth Wyldwoods have that same ability. So wood terrain finally does more than just be decoration.

Wayniac wrote:
One thing I just happened to notice that's really good is that GH2018 changed Woods to actually block LOS at long last! I had not noticed this before today.

Models are not visible to each other if an imaginary straight line 1mm wide drawn between the closest points of the two models crosses over more than 1" of the base of a Citadel Wood. This scenery rule does not apply if either model can fly.

The FAQ today also stated that Sylvaneth Wyldwoods have that same ability. So wood terrain finally does more than just be decoration.

The terrain rules alone put AoS light years ahead of 40k.

Yeah. Fortunately for me I've been using that house rule about forests blocking line of sight for years and years

auticus wrote:
Yeah. Fortunately for me I've been using that house rule about forests blocking line of sight for years and years

But now you can show it's "official" and not some lame house rules that will teach people to play wrong