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tneva82 wrote:

 hollow one wrote:

If you leave home without that you'll still be competitive sure, but you better have the reps in with this list to know exactly why you're making the changes. I'm personally playing 15 loota 15 tankbusta, for example, and the rest of my list follows tradition. Much like pre-codex, we are looking to have one good list, the good news is that it's extremely strong and is absolutely a top contender. Just because Orks did not top8 this tournament does not mean the sky is falling, the Loota star is real, buy them and start winning games.

Problems here being a) eldar soup will be good gate keeper to ensure you don't get top absolute top spots b) this is getting countered faster and faster. Codex comes out, it got then hit nerfbat in FAQ right away. Then comes CA2018 and again everybody else is getting boosts. Vigilant again helps other armies more than orks and imperium will be getting more likely new detachments than orks(imperium is likely in every book). Oh and with GSC even more "loota star removal" buttons out there. Now not only eldar soup but also tyranid soup can automatically remove it. Tyranids do it even better!

You can't beat everyone with one list, and orks beat literally everything else. We are the literal counter to castellan/guard, grotesque/talos heavy eldar, and other horde based armies like plaguebearer spam. An all eldar flyer list comes along and we have some slight trouble... that's okay, i'd still take that list.

 flaming tadpole wrote:
To be fair, Nick's only loss was by one measly point to the 2nd place eldar flyer spam guy who then proceeded to completely steamroll his first two opponents in the top 8 before losing a close game to Grant. Apart from Grant, Nick and Steve's orks were actually the only people who gave him any sort of trouble and either one of them could have easily made the top 8. I'm not saying orks are top tier because frankly no mono faction has a shot with the craziness of soup right now. As far as mono factions go though I would put them somewhere in the top(ish) tier or at the very least we have the capability to compete with the top tier mono factions

This is also super relevant. For those who dont know, Nick (orks) and Alex (eldar flyer) tied, and they both said they'll play a 60 second turn to define a winner, since a draw is as good as a loss for the LVO. That's how they ended up 25 to 26. TBH that is really not a data point you want to lean a whole list change on. Might be better to focus on the fact that the loota list basically tables most other armies, and has the potential to max points in ITC vs the rest of the field.

If you want to win tournament you DO need to be beat everybody. That's why you see imperial soup's and aeldar soups dominate. Thanks to being soup they have tools against everything. Knights? No problem. Horde? No problem. Orks? Eat 'em. Necrons? Boom.

Loota star has never dominated tournaments and ever since codex dropped it and orks have been steadily been weakened compared to others and now tyranid soups have also access to "remove loota star" buton. Loota stars days are pretty much over. Not that they were dominating tournaments to begin with. Such a one-click wonders don't generally dominate. Too easy to counter.

tneva82 wrote:
and now tyranid soups have also access to "remove loota star" buton.

as a ork and tyranid player i would like to know what "loota star remove button" you are talking about? a couple of dakkafexes?

 wallygator wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
and now tyranid soups have also access to "remove loota star" buton.

as a ork and tyranid player i would like to know what "loota star remove button" you are talking about? a couple of dakkafexes?

Souping Tyranids with GSC to gain access to their "a plan generations in the making" strat (ie Vect) to just deny grot shields and shoot them off the board

ah thanks. I have not looked in the GSC codex yet.

PiñaColada wrote:

 wallygator wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
and now tyranid soups have also access to "remove loota star" buton.

as a ork and tyranid player i would like to know what "loota star remove button" you are talking about? a couple of dakkafexes?

Souping Tyranids with GSC to gain access to their "a plan generations in the making" strat (ie Vect) to just deny grot shields and shoot them off the board

If the ork player hides the 2 loota mobs, to the extent of deploying them inside battlwagons/bonebreakas, what would get Vect-ed ? Mob up strat ? the lootas could still shoot though (but they won't be very threatening, especially if shooting on a -1 to hit target, or if BWs need to move) .

addnid wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:

 wallygator wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
and now tyranid soups have also access to "remove loota star" buton.

as a ork and tyranid player i would like to know what "loota star remove button" you are talking about? a couple of dakkafexes?

Souping Tyranids with GSC to gain access to their "a plan generations in the making" strat (ie Vect) to just deny grot shields and shoot them off the board

If the ork player hides the 2 loota mobs, to the extent of deploying them inside battlwagons/bonebreakas, what would get Vect-ed ? Mob up strat ? the lootas could still shoot though (but they won't be very threatening, especially if shooting on a -1 to hit target, or if BWs need to move) .

Well if you start them in transports then you're investing even more points in them but sure, you get to shoot once with them most likely. Hitting on 6's though, since the "More dakka" strat would be vected. So now you're investing 425 points for the lootas + 120 for a battlewagon + 63 for a trukk to hit on 6's, are you going to spend 2 CPs to shoot again then? Or the person could just Vect the amount of shots if you roll a 1 and want to reroll.

It's just a lot of points (and potentially CP) for something you might get off once. The damage potential is still there but I don't think it'll be the way forward for Orks

Edit: And just hiding them out of LoS is probabaly not going to work great since everyone tries to bring some weapons that don't require LoS to LVO. GSC can just take Wyverns through brood brothers, no? So they'll fire at the hidden lootas and you try to grot shield and get Vected.

I think we need to accept the reality that Orks just aren't that competitive. Its OK. We have been here before, in many previous editions.

The two lists that finished 16th and 17th are held as some paragons of competitive play. A mono Tau list finished higher. Much higher. As did a mono SM list of all things. The Ork lists that finished 16th and 17th were also piloted by some of the best players of the game bar none.

At the LVO this year our weaknesses were exposed and they are (currently) as follows;
1. An over reliance on stratagems to be effective.
2. No cost effective way to deal with heavy armour.
3. Too fragile without strats.
4. Obvious, simple tactics.
5. Most of our units are too expensive to be competitive therefore our unit choices are obvious and limited. Making counter play easy.

I think its pretty obvious given our results post codex that we are not a competitive army to be feared. Yes good players can take a variation of the same build and perform adequately. But if Nick and Steve can't break top 8, I don't see what else can be done without sweeping points reductions.

2 Ork players in top 50 of LVO.
5 Ork players in top 100 of LVO.

We made up over 10% of the meta.

These numbers don't lie. We need something. Hopefully GW decide to reprice our units in the big FAQ or something. Otherwise we sit as a gatekeeper army at best, a poor army at worst.

still significantly better off than we were at least.
6/7th orks were so bad they were borderline unplayable for a long time and completely unplayable for the latter part of 7th. Even in a casual setting where nobody used the "meta" and just did janky stuff while i tried my hardest to bring the best list possible i usually got my face stomped by turn3, wiped off the board not losing.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
still significantly better off than we were at least.
6/7th orks were so bad they were borderline unplayable for a long time and completely unplayable for the latter part of 7th. Even in a casual setting where nobody used the "meta" and just did janky stuff while i tried my hardest to bring the best list possible i usually got my face stomped by turn3, wiped off the board not losing.

Towards the end of 7th we faired a lot better though because we had a 500pt fw stompa that we could throw 15 meks into to repair every turn lol. I still remember that everyone felt so bad for ork players that the ITC voted to allow us to take them even though everyone knew they were ridiculously undercosted. That thing was fun to play with haha.

Yeah and the ridiculous part was that stompa was still "good" at that price, not absurdly op or anything.

Hi all, sorry if this has been asked or covered previously but if a unit is in combat can it be Da Jumped out and shoot as normal as technically it hasn’t falllen back? I’m thinking specifically if a loota star gets tagged via a consolidation. Thanks

Hogiebear wrote:
Hi all, sorry if this has been asked or covered previously but if a unit is in combat can it be Da Jumped out and shoot as normal as technically it hasn’t falllen back? I’m thinking specifically if a loota star gets tagged via a consolidation. Thanks

Q: If a unit starts its Movement phase within 1" of an enemy unit but elects to remain stationary, but subsequently uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the Gate of Infinity psychic power, is it considered to have Fallen Back this turn?
A: No.

brb faq

Maybe we ain't competitive, but you know what we got that the other Factions ain't? Fun. I ain't never seen an Ork player finish a match and look bored. Everything from our models to our playstyle is designed to bring us enjoyment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just remember, guys.

Orkses is never defeated in battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fighting so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!

 flandarz wrote:
Maybe we ain't competitive, but you know what we got that the other Factions ain't? Fun. I ain't never seen an Ork player finish a match and look bored. Everything from our models to our playstyle is designed to bring us enjoyment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just remember, guys.

Orkses is never defeated in battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fighting so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!

This!

I'd rather have a fun, memorable, and close game than be a faction known for the snorefest that is the loyal 32 + Castellan wombo-combo.

That's cool for you guys but I actually derive enjoyment from winning the game as well as playing.

Nor do I find our competitive list particularly fun to play. 80 boys + a ton of grots + loota star? Not particularly riveting stuff there.

It would be nice if there were a variety of viable lists. If I wasn't actively stamping on my own gonads taking the new buggies I painstakingly painted.

Not only is our most competitive list pretty lackluster, our less competitive lists are even worse. My lists fall to the latter of the spectrum. I see players of other factions taking a relatively fluffy list and performing well.

Of course we enjoy winning. And, going by LVO, we're doing alright on that front. I know you said 2 in the top 50, but it was actually 2 in the top 20. 16th and 17th place. If we made up over 10% of the meta, then we're on par with those placements.

Now, if what you're saying is: "I want to win every time, easily, no matter what Ork list I decide to bring" then, yeah, you'll be disappointed. YMMV, but I tend to win at least half of my matches with my pals, and I don't bring a competitive list to the game.

Compared to Codex and a lot of other Factions, we have a few different list compositions that can be "competitive", though maybe not on a tournament level. As a mono Faction, I think we're in a pretty good place.

That doesn't mean I don't recognize our weaknesses. Particularly that our two greatest weaknesses (super heavy and fliers) are top lists right now. And that soup lists are dominating tournaments, while we don't have anything to soup with. But I ain't gonna get my knickers in a twist over it. I'm not gonna just throw my hands up and give up. I'm not gonna pout in the corner and lament my lot in life. I'm gonna keep pushing on, working on my list and strategy, and have fun with a game whose entire point is to have fun with your friends with.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
So many peeps at the LVO thought orks were gonna win it, but tbf I always had my doubts.


Dark Eldar and Castellan Soup is just too good againgst orks atm for them to win it all.


I took nidz which was dumb because orks just do everything nids do and better, but I had a blast an it was a great weekend.

A lot of people overestimated orkz simply because we improved more than any other army, we went from probably the WORST army in 7th to a middle tier army in 8th when our codex finally dropped. A lot of dedicated players who only play orkz were actually really good at the game but were hamstrung by having the worst codex in the game, so now that they have legitimate tools to work with our win/loss rate drastically went up, which is why power gamers, WAAC Players like Nick all jumped onto the Ork bandwagon, they thought they could take a codex that looked super powerful and run counter meta (Knight/loyal 32, space elf soup) and win. At the end of the day we had 2 of the worlds best powergamers playing Orkz at LVO and they couldn't crack the top 8, keep in mind Nick WON LVO last year, he won numerous tournaments last year (with Eeldari Soup I believe). And even this guy couldn't crack the top 8 with orkz, now the immediate counter argument I keep hearing is that it came down to 1 game against Aeldari flyer list and he could have won....well guess what? He didn't beat him and there in lies the problem. The guy who won LVO last year couldn't take orkz into the top 8. Had Nick or the other guy taken Aeldari soup or Imperial Soup or even stand alone Dark Eldar they might have won the entire thing again, instead they went with a counter meta army in the hopes of surprising a lot of players....it didn't work, those top lists killed the loota bomb and codex deep strike.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
So many peeps at the LVO thought orks were gonna win it, but tbf I always had my doubts.


Dark Eldar and Castellan Soup is just too good againgst orks atm for them to win it all.


I took nidz which was dumb because orks just do everything nids do and better, but I had a blast an it was a great weekend.

A lot of people overestimated orkz simply because we improved more than any other army, we went from probably the WORST army in 7th to a middle tier army in 8th when our codex finally dropped. A lot of dedicated players who only play orkz were actually really good at the game but were hamstrung by having the worst codex in the game, so now that they have legitimate tools to work with our win/loss rate drastically went up, which is why power gamers, WAAC Players like Nick all jumped onto the Ork bandwagon, they thought they could take a codex that looked super powerful and run counter meta (Knight/loyal 32, space elf soup) and win. At the end of the day we had 2 of the worlds best powergamers playing Orkz at LVO and they couldn't crack the top 8, keep in mind Nick WON LVO last year, he won numerous tournaments last year (with Eeldari Soup I believe). And even this guy couldn't crack the top 8 with orkz, now the immediate counter argument I keep hearing is that it came down to 1 game against Aeldari flyer list and he could have won....well guess what? He didn't beat him and there in lies the problem. The guy who won LVO last year couldn't take orkz into the top 8. Had Nick or the other guy taken Aeldari soup or Imperial Soup or even stand alone Dark Eldar they might have won the entire thing again, instead they went with a counter meta army in the hopes of surprising a lot of players....it didn't work, those top lists killed the loota bomb and codex deep strike.

I agree with the idea that the potential has been overestimated, practically no one will play my orks now as even running my old non-optimised lists I'm producing consistent wins. But then I would win half my games when we were still index. Not to blow my trumpet, my second army is admech, and I am no where near as good with them, as I just don't play with them as much, and all my tactics are very much ork based. I've just practised with orks more, know how to handle them, and now they're better tools, my win ratio went up.

Similarly, just beacuse Nick might be a great player with other armies, doesn't mean he's automatically a great ork player. Obviously still an excellent player to do as well as he did though. Just a thought.

So... what's the verdict on KillaKans?

I've got 9 of those suckers back in my 5th ed "Kan wall" days.

Also, Scorcha Grot Tanks seems pretty decent for the price...no?

Killakanz are in this weird spot. I use them in a semi-casual meta and they do fine but i can tell they arent the best option.

Killakanz would probably bump up to one of our best mechanized units if they'd either A) give them kultures or B) drop them by like 15pts. Lack of kulture is seriously painful since so many of our actually good units are ONLY good because of the kulture.

 whembly wrote:
So... what's the verdict on KillaKans?

I've got 9 of those suckers back in my 5th ed "Kan wall" days.

Also, Scorcha Grot Tanks seems pretty decent for the price...no?

In a snakebite klan, with a fearless Warboss trait they are more interesting, it's just that there are better and cheaper alternatives. If you spam them then you'll still have fun, as will your opponent, but they're not in a good spot.

Ranged weapons load outs are a poor selection of choices, combat potential is weak, and lack of ability to benefit from kultures basically hamstrings a fun unit.

Strictly for fun, mek walker spam games. I take them in games where my opponent usually struggles so they have stuff to pop, and add some flavour.

 flandarz wrote:
Of course we enjoy winning. And, going by LVO, we're doing alright on that front. I know you said 2 in the top 50, but it was actually 2 in the top 20. 16th and 17th place. If we made up over 10% of the meta, then we're on par with those placements.

Yes, if you take that very limited data sample you are correct. But when you see no other Ork players in the top 50, you note that 2/50 is a pretty poor showing. When you see only 5 Ork players in the top 100, again, not a very good showing. A greater data sample means more accurate results

We aren't doing alright at all. The best 40k player dropped from 1st to 16th, not even close to top 8 when he decided to run Orks and he has said on record 'I don't think I could have beaten the [Ynarri flyer] list at all'.

Now, if what you're saying is: "I want to win every time, easily, no matter what Ork list I decide to bring" then, yeah, you'll be disappointed. YMMV, but I tend to win at least half of my matches with my pals, and I don't bring a competitive list to the game.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I think its very obvious what I'm saying because I'm saying it very clearly. Orks are not a top tier army. We never have been this edition and unless there are drastic changes we never will be. Again, you might be happy playing an army that's hamstrung, but I've been doing that for enough years I'm sick of it now. For the record, 90 Evil Sunz boys on foot getting teleported upfield is not fluffy.

Compared to Codex and a lot of other Factions, we have a few different list compositions that can be "competitive", though maybe not on a tournament level. As a mono Faction, I think we're in a pretty good place.

This is a contradiction in terms. We either have a multitude of tournament level competitive lists, or we don't. I'm not interested in your beer and pretzel games, you can run whatever you like there and you may find odd lists that are competitive in your local meta.

In terms of actual competitive play we have one build and it is now proven to be ineffective. The only other interesting and slightly competitive build I have seen is Ben Jurek's Freeboota list.

That doesn't mean I don't recognize our weaknesses. Particularly that our two greatest weaknesses (super heavy and fliers) are top lists right now. And that soup lists are dominating tournaments, while we don't have anything to soup with. But I ain't gonna get my knickers in a twist over it. I'm not gonna just throw my hands up and give up. I'm not gonna pout in the corner and lament my lot in life. I'm gonna keep pushing on, working on my list and strategy, and have fun with a game whose entire point is to have fun with your friends with.

If you think me talking about our weaknesses and petitioning for corrections is 'getting knickers in a twist', 'giving up' or 'pouting in the corner' I don't really know what to say. GW have made it clear they want and apparently listen to feedback. If you continue playing your poorly performing army without raising issues with GW you have no right to complain when things don't get fixed.

My suggestion to this group is to think seriously about the changes we want to see to Orks to make them viable and put them to GW in the community survey. If we don't speak up nothing will change.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Killakanz are in this weird spot. I use them in a semi-casual meta and they do fine but i can tell they arent the best option.

Killakanz would probably bump up to one of our best mechanized units if they'd either A) give them kultures or B) drop them by like 15pts. Lack of kulture is seriously painful since so many of our actually good units are ONLY good because of the kulture.

I would like them more if they could skip the melee weapon and use double ranged weapons. Kans with dual rokkits or kmb would be interesting

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Killakanz are in this weird spot. I use them in a semi-casual meta and they do fine but i can tell they arent the best option.

Killakanz would probably bump up to one of our best mechanized units if they'd either A) give them kultures or B) drop them by like 15pts. Lack of kulture is seriously painful since so many of our actually good units are ONLY good because of the kulture.

Killakanz are on the shelf, not in a weird spot....they suck, flat out, they suck. Killakanz as a unit personify what is wrong with MOST of the ork codex, overpriced, under performing, low durability.

Kanz have decent durability if you go by T and Save, but you have to factor leadership into this equation as well and their leadership is abysmal, what is worse is that this issue is amplified by the fact that the only way to make them decent in CC is to take them in large units to benefit from the +1 attack, but when you do that you open yourself up to losing several models to a leadership check when you have 1 or 2 die. You have to have a warboss and a banner nob babysit them in order to make them useful which just adds to their cost, especially when both warboss and banner nob could be better used somewhere else....or not at all. And the straw that broke the Grotz back......they suck at dakka. The best weapon they can use is a Rokkit which is itself about 50% over priced, its short ranged and the Kan only gets 1 shot. If it was 3 shots they would be worth taking with BS4+ but with 1 shot per kan at 24in range? yeah no, they are useless.

So a couple of tactics points from a game i played recently.

I took a morkanaut as

1)i liked its fire power,
2) i was taking dreed waagh spec detachment and liked tge option to shoot twice.
3) I needed a kff
4) its still pretty punchy in cc in the event my opponent came at me.

Id recommend taking a kff mek, battlewagon and a quad kustom mega blasta dread instead. The kff is awesome but the morkanaut can and will be targeted in order to disable the kff while the mek (normally) cant be. The morkanaut was taken down in one round by a castellan and with it my armies 5++.

I say the mek cant normally be targeted as the knights have that strat that all them to fire on characters. In this case the knight took out my super SAG mek. Lesson to take away from this is to always have some grots around your clutch characters if fighting knights. His strat cost 3cp. Grot shield would have only cost my 1.

One cool thing i found was "orks is never defeated"strat is pretty good on the super SAG mek allowing him to fire off one last time. The wording from showing off actually allows him to fire again after death. Id recommend aiming tge first batch at the knight so you can force him to do that " direct ion shield " for 3cp but you can use the showing off at a different enemy unit as per the faq.

The knight strat to target characters can be avoided by grot shield but honestly, just take a grot oiler and let him take the hit. Watch the IK player lose 12 points and 3CP for a 4point grot, he's never doing that again.

PiñaColada wrote:
The knight strat to target characters can be avoided by grot shield but honestly, just take a grot oiler and let him take the hit. Watch the IK player lose 12 points and 3CP for a 4point grot, he's never doing that again.

Does this work? The grot oiler doesn't actually have a stat line and its model is purely for decorative purposes, codex is pretty clear about this as I remember. I don't think you can use it to activate grot shield but I may be wrong.

ManTube wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
The knight strat to target characters can be avoided by grot shield but honestly, just take a grot oiler and let him take the hit. Watch the IK player lose 12 points and 3CP for a 4point grot, he's never doing that again.

Does this work? The grot oiler doesn't actually have a stat line and its model is purely for decorative purposes, codex is pretty clear about this as I remember. I don't think you can use it to activate grot shield but I may be wrong.

the grot oilers serve as an ablative wound and you can put it on your kff and SAG, although he should be targeting your weird boys with that strat so idk.

ManTube wrote:
Does this work? The grot oiler doesn't actually have a stat line and its model is purely for decorative purposes, codex is pretty clear about this as I remember. I don't think you can use it to activate grot shield but I may be wrong.

I don't have an index, but the oiler absolutely has a stat line in the codex.