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This is a thought I just had, so bear in mind if it's not the most well organized post.  I've been thinking a lot about the general discontent many people are having with 40k, and trying to think of why things have gone south.  One thing came up: no consistent policy/direction/vision for the game.  They publish Chapter Approved in White Dwarf and annuals, than stop.  They create rich, niche army sublists and than stop true support for them (I'm not saying they're not playable as something, just that the spark of the army has been altered.)  Space Marines, Eldar, Tau, and Tyranids are all strong, aggresive codices that attract tons of new players, and than Dark Angles get a swift sharp nerf and basically are DOA, interest wise.

It's clear that there is nobody at the rudder, so to speak.  Codexes are made because somebody thinks they'll be interesting (Daemonhunters, anyone?) while exisiting army lines languish (Sisters?).  The studio has been very clear that their release schedule comes from corporate, and their decision making is beyond opaque.

The best part is, there's nobody to address our complaints to, nobody who runs the show.  We kvetch about GW, but it's becoming increasingly clear that the neglect that 40k suffers is the easiest to occur and the easiest to fix: nobody is in charge. 

All 40k needs is an smart, far sighted 2-3 year plan.  Find somebody with half a brain to release complete, Adepticon style FAQs for the game and all the codices.  Hell, just steal that one!  Hire a guy to be Head of Tournament play.  His job is organizing GTs, working on new RTT missions, and creating seperate set of Tournament only rules/errata/spot nerfs.  Hire another in the US for our GTs.  Finally, look outside the studio for a new White Dwarf guy.  Hire somebody with actual magazine experience, put some actual content in there, and it's back off the ground.

One person would need a lot of authority to do this.  Right now, the studio, the sculptors, the bean counters, and the GT guys are all on different pages, and clearly there isn't a lot of communication between them. 

Anybody have any thoughts?

This probably belongs in discussion, not News. I won't cry if somebody moves it.

I actuall sent an e-mail to GW several years ago.  I told them, in very polite and mature terms, that they could do wonders for their game if they lowered the cost of their miniatures.  What they did not make in cost, they would make in number of units sold.  GW miniatures are wonderful, for the most part, and many people want to play.  They simply can't afford to.

The response I received was, "you already have all the miniatures you need...just buy the new rules, and you can play again."

Here is where I find the problem with GW.  They are huge.  They have an attitude.  They were number 1 for so long, they forget what it's like to be at the bottom.  So, here is the result...

1. No one wants to buy into the game.  It's just too expensive.

2. No one likes GW's attitude.  It's like you have to be one of the "elite" to play.

3. Other games, such as War Machine, can be just as much fun, with 1/4th the cost.

4. No stable game design.  Each codex either makes half of your miniature collection worthless, or so powerful it is pure cheese.

5. Letting an entire product line die, just because the miniatures are not selling.  They could always include them in a new Codex, like putting Squats into the Imperial Guard, but they don't.

I could go on and on, but I will not.  I love the game for what it is, and for what it was.  I hate the game for what it is, and what it is not.  But, I'm with you 100% on your post.  GW could fix 40K by simply doing the following:

1. CARE about the GAME!!! 

2. Remember what it is like to be a gamer!!!

3. Put someone in charge that is full of energy and creativity. 

4. Drop the attitude.

5. Remember, that plastic miniatures only cost as much as the materials, shipping, and development involved in their production.  There is no reason for $5.00 of plastic to cost $50.00.  They could sell more Land Raiders if the only cost $30.00.

6. Remember all of your fans that made you the top dog.  If you drop their armies form your game, that will make them mad.  They are the ones pulling for you to succeed.  They are the ones promoting your game.  Without them, you will fall.

Maybe War Maching and Flams of War are a good thing.  GW will HAVE to take notice, or they will fail. 

So could Mercedes, Rolex, etc.

Every company and nation follows this model:

1) the under-dog (think Revolutionary War)

2) the rising star (GW 3 years ago)(our nation building with great ideas and people)

3) the cash cow (GW now, our nation now, all about the money)

4) decline (GW in 3 years, our nation in 30 years)

I think you're time lineis a little off ronney.
More like this:

1) the under-dog

2) the rising star (GW 6 years ago)

3) the cash cow (GW 3 years ago)

4) decline (GW in... now)

Whilst I commend Polonius for his passion for the hobby and think this is a good post it's ultimately useless.

Having worked for GW for just over 3 years I was unlucky enough to gradually watch a company that was, during my entry to it, in a good position and produced brilliant minis and decent rulebooks, spiral down hill into a lowest common denomonator / quick play  mockery of its former self.

There have been so many revisions to rules and codexes of late, and they have been so woefully managed and developed, that instead of being excited and interested you are just left bored and indifferent. For example I haven't played WFB since the "new" rules were released. I haven't bought the rule book, and I can't say that I plan too, and worse of all a game that at one point was my most cherrished and enjoyable I've found myself being totally numbed towards.

I think this is because everything GW now do or develop is purely a cynical money driven excersise. For example the hardback Fantasy Rule book in a nice box £75? The infinity rulebook is hardback has much better quality production and much more full colour content and is £20. Hell even Imperial Armour books are cheaper and they actually contain something worth reading.

GW attitude that background, character development, and hell even value or quality of product can be left to its subsidery companies (Black Library, Forgeworld, Sabertooth etc) and not its main parent company is a large reason for the bland lifeless vacuum that is the majority of their recent publications.

Why should I have to buy a black library novel to get a decent bit of army / faction based fiction?

Why should I have to buy Imperial Armour books to get background depth and decent narrative development?

Why should I have to buy the shameless Sabertooth trading card game cash in art books to get some decent full colour art?

All of these issues were, in the past and should be now, covered in standard army books and codexes.

Whilst the most recent 40K rule book did this to an extent and was a good step in the right direction the recent codexes have really taken a step back and undone this positive work.

DA codex was a real joke. But DA specifically offered no options for the experienced gamer. It's as if the company itself has admitted that its in decline that it can only get young gamers and those brand new to the hobby and cannot keep them. So it produces simple, bland, and uninspired product. Also the different production style between each and every codex release and the total lack of consistency are real issues. GW can't seem to get out of the must release a codex to release and promote new minis mentality.

Will it change? No, they sack staff regularly, close down stores when they want, rewrite well loved rules and change model lines at the drop of a hat...

They've made it clear that as a company they don't care about themselves, so why would they care about consumers (gamers)?

 

 

Posted By Ghaz on 05/23/2007 10:06 PM

I told them, in very polite and mature terms, that they could do wonders for their game if they lowered the cost of their miniatures. What they did not make in cost, they would make in number of units sold.

So could Mercedes, Rolex, etc.

But Mercedes and Rolex do actually offer a better product, innovative design, etc.

Can anyone say thay 40k rules are twice as good as Warmachine's?  GW seem to think they are because they charge twice as much for the basic rulebook...

The  "Higher price for better quality" justification only works if the products *are* actually better quality I'm afraid.  It totally fails if your product is actually tackier than the cheaper competitor's.

All I can say is thank the Emperor for Forge World. Their prices are even more ludicrous than GW's, but they still do stuff that's fun. The Anphelion Project is one the best books I've bought in recent days, and I'll be ordering IA5 (along with a nice Artillery Company) this weekend.

BYE

Posted By Gundammecha on 05/24/2007 12:33 AM

Why should I have to buy Imperial Armour books to get background depth and decent narrative development?

Why should I have to buy the shameless Sabertooth trading card game cash in art books to get some decent full colour art?

All of these issues were, in the past and should be now, covered in standard army books and codexes.

Will it change? No, they sack staff regularly, close down stores when they want, rewrite well loved rules and change model lines at the drop of a hat...

They've made it clear that as a company they don't care about themselves, so why would they care about consumers (gamers)?

 

 

Even though I usually say stop the moaning and if you dont like it stop playing.  However Gundemecha has made an excellent point and I totally agree with him.  They dont care about us so we should stop complaining about them.  anybody would think GW is an X girlfriend that dumped us and we are still in love with her despite all her faults.  Get over it guys she aint coming back.  She is with a younger player who expects less of her for the time being put up with her badly written rules because he does not know better

The real solution is just to stop buying and keep what you have now. I wil not set foot in a GW store ever again b/c
1- dont need anything else, we just use what we have to endless variants of battles and idea we come up with.
2- the staff at a GW store is worse than a bunch of arm-twisting used car salesmen.

Posted By roneldar on 05/24/2007 5:06 AM
2- the staff at a GW store is worse than a bunch of arm-twisting used car salesmen.

Sadly these days thats very true.

I think its a management issue. Many staff now cannot identify customers accurately. They default on loud, goofy, over the top pushy mode to everyone which is not the right approach and can put alot of casual interest off. Targets are targets yes but you have to respect your customers and sometimes making a judgement call yourself is more important than forcing the new release schedule down someones throat. Treat someone with respect and advise them honestly and constructively and they will keep coming back.

You don't have to be Jim Carrey to make an intro game exciting or interesting.

I too get fed up of the "HEEEEYYYYYYYY!!!!!! WHAT ARMY DO YOU COLLECT MAN??? COOOLLLL!!!! DAKKA ZAPP ZAPPP PHASHOOOMMMM!!!!!! HEY BUY THIS LAND RAIDER ITS A WICKED TANK!!!!"

Another option is could be a living rulebook...  If GW won't write one, maybe the players could.

Would have to avoid using GW proprietory language, but who cares if it is an aspect warrior ot a temple warrior?

Posted By Dragonmann on 05/24/2007 5:34 AM

Another option is could be a living rulebook...  If GW won't write one, maybe the players could.

Would have to avoid using GW proprietory language, but who cares if it is an aspect warrior ot a temple warrior?

You would be violating GW IP and they would be on you in a matter of days.

As had been said before... vote with your wallet. Don't buy GW stuff until they get their act together.

ender502

Posted By ender502 on 05/24/2007 5:47 AM

Posted By Dragonmann on 05/24/2007 5:34 AM

Another option is could be a living rulebook...  If GW won't write one, maybe the players could.

Would have to avoid using GW proprietory language, but who cares if it is an aspect warrior ot a temple warrior?

You would be violating GW IP and they would be on you in a matter of days.

As had been said before... vote with your wallet. Don't buy GW stuff until they get their act together.

ender502

BAH!

GW doesn't own the IP for rolling dice and playing games, if it is written sufficiently generic they have no legal leg to stand on.

Read the blurb at the beginning of every GW book which lists out every trademarked term they have been granted, and write the rules without those

Posted By beef on 05/24/2007 2:47 AM

Even though I usually say stop the moaning and if you dont like it stop playing.  However Gundemecha has made an excellent point and I totally agree with him.  They dont care about us so we should stop complaining about them.  anybody would think GW is an X girlfriend that dumped us and we are still in love with her despite all her faults.  Get over it guys she aint coming back.  She is with a younger player who expects less of her for the time being put up with her badly written rules because he does not know better

President Bush doesn't care about you, so you should stop complaining about him.

The Crusaders didn't care about the civilian populations they slaughtered, so the civilians should have stopped complaining about them.

Wow. That argument can be used about anything. It doesn't make it meaningful though.

I don't see anything wrong with telling people why you're quitting. Given GW's past decisions, they might well conclude that you're leaving because the rules are too complex for you. "Veterans are leaving in droves. This must mean that they're confused by having both Krak and Frag Grenades in the game. Let's simplify things and only have one type."

No, you need to say why you're leaving or why you dislike something for it to have any impact. For example, people 'moaning' about Rhino Rush armies resulted in the new vehicle rules. They go too far the other way, but they're still an improvement over 3rd. If everyone followed your advice beef, GW wouldn't have known there was a problem, and they'd never have been written.

Haaahahahahahahha this Again! and in rumors.
yeah price sucks not much else about the product does. They support all the armies besides eldar and sisters with extensive line of plastics that include more than enough extra parts. If they were closer to the price of WWII plastics they?d be in the right price range But Guess What? They?re never Gonna be Cheaper! EVER! Maybe include more for your buck, but forget about the price changin? D@mn this is a really Dead horse?

Kick that Dead Horse Boy! Kick it let that anger out for all those years of Wasting your Money on them Little Mens! Kickit! Go on stomp on it?s head and pop the eye balls out! Kick that Dead Horse Harder! Here take this Bat?Hit it in the head! Break it?s face! Stomps it?s heads Boy!

But guess what ?the horse is dead and your just covered with horse gore and bits of fur and hair from it?s mane, maybe some teeth, eye juice, bone fragments, some entrails, maybe some fecal matter. But go on beat that DEAD HORSE BOY!?

As far as the Rollie and Benz comment?get real? these are toys for everyday people, not luxury items for the wealthy?you sayin you rich on Down Dere in Kentucky BOY?! You Sayin Only Folks with lots of Money Can Play Now?so you the ?Elite? that that complainer kids speakin on Ghaz? Warhammer Isn?t for the Masses Ghaz?Getem?!
j/k

As far as rude trolls go?make Said rude troll take down a huge order?.really big on bit codes, one at a time?take it all the way to the credit card # part, then Drop the call, call back in 7 min ask for the same Previously rude Troll and tell him you lost the call and you want to give him the credit card # again. the screen should be clear now, run off the list a second time?drop the call.

Call back ask for the troll tell him you wasted his fanboy Abadon vs Marnius Chat time because he was rude.

I love you all?Deeply.

I'd like to take this opportunity to remind all the fair folk of Dakka that feeding trolls always leads to bad things, so please don't feed the one above.

BYE

Smile! or don't.
besides the Direct comment comparing finely made diamond encrusted watches and one of the finest automobiles on the Planet to Wargames toys...ok besides that how am I trolling?
Ok ok I'm trolling
I'm trolling this lame Crybaby session #27,586. that Of all places was started in rumors...Christ sake this ain't old to you yet HBMC? we've ALLLLLLL made our voices heard...27,586 times...X the ammount of post per cry baby Topic...that a -N- factor I can't even calculate.
an in the rumors page too...

so I added the Horse Joke... what you a animal lover all soft and Vegan? Didn't like the horse joke?
Laugh I Said!

I love you HBMC...Deeply
this time you fed the troll didn't you?

 

I think you missread the benz comment. He said that what we pay for in minis is comparable to the differance in a ford to a benz, but the benz is a better product so can be considered worth it. Wereas GW minis cost more but for what? Better bitz?

Woops!  Wrong thread.

Sorry.

Are they a necessity for life, like food or shelter? If not then you should 'get real' and understand that they are luxury items. Deal with it.

Another one of the elite wargamers tells us how it "is" again. Tells us G.W. prouducts are a luxury item a kin to the finest made watches and autos, so I guess it’s ok to charge huge prices right Ghaz …Besides the fact that your comparisons are silly. Diamonds and auto compared to toys…not even high tech toys but plastic models. Get real man.

Food and shelter... go to the starving homeless forums page with that B.S. (thats not the Blood serpents) and I "Deal" with it very well. whatta goofball.

so to be clear, G.W. is such a luxury item that they can charge what ever they want and it's ok because it's a kin rolex  product? It's that fine of a product?

I understand Part of your point...the part about well eat vs. toys. but not the part where it's put on a pedistool high above the average mans reach. That part... makes me look at you like "huh!?"

but you thoughts are yours...I think yours alone.

lets see. Who else thinks it's a Highgrade luxury item? who else can support Ghazs point 100%

anyone?


 

A luxury good is simply something people will want to buy when their income increases. However,
when their income decreases, they spend less on it. Luxury goods include things like

*name brand clothing*
*video games*
*car models (think Monte Carlo vs. Malibu)*
*fine dining, or even better than average dining*
*miniature wargame models (any flavor)*
*first class flying*

I don't think anyone thinks of GW product as Porsches...anymore.
(sorry, Russ, couldn't help myself)

You had me until the Monte Carlo comment, Felix. My first car was a Monte Carlo. It was the worst piece of junk that was ever given four wheels. Girls in AMC Gremlins would laugh as they rode by.

As far as quality, my experience with GW products has gone downhill in the past few months. My WHFB Giant and 40k Scouts minis had an obscene amount of flash on the sprues, and the newest issue of White Dwarf (US 329) looks, smells and feels like it's made of chinese newspapers. Anecdotal evidence, true, but it seems to be happening more frequently.

Jester hits 4 times with his Assault Postcannon!

Gawd, I had Rending posts.

At least he wasn't assaulting your dirty underwear drawer. That would leave you with no panties to wear to tomorrow's Wasteland Memorial Day BBQ.

Who's in charge? Blind monkies banging at typewriters?


The real answer is shareholders.....

Posted By carmachu on 05/27/2007 7:37 AM
Who's in charge? Blind monkies banging at typewriters?


The real answer is shareholders.....

And if you think individual shareholders are really able to exert much control over management at any public company, I've got a nice piece of swamp land to sell you.

The Companies Act, 2006 C-46 (UK) makes it a little easier for shareholders to be heard, but power in a UK (or American or Canadian) company still usually rests with management. Most minor shareholders don't actually vote and leave their votes to management, and management has their own shares and votes. This means it's nearly impossible to remove an entrenched management block without involving dramatic means (like buying out the company) or lengthy and expensive litigation.

That said, I have no real idea of the current make-up of GW's shareholders and board of directors.