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Dakka-ites,


After reading the new DA codex I felt a rising urge to vomit at the changes they had made.  Then realizing that my beloved BA successor chapter was doomed to a similar fate of weaker IC's without choices, forced special characters, and cookie cutter tac squads I almost passed out with disbelief.  Ok, maybe I didn't pass out, but I imagined the years that would pass while I was  forced to use these restrictive and mindless rules while all my other marine buddies gloated with their terminator honors, lightning claws, and tac squads sizes of their choice.

I decided to ask why GW would weaken and restrict certain armies for years and, with their glacial slowness, allow other armies and chapters to remain "unnerfed". I  tried to discuss  this over at B&C and got a face full of . . .

"Quit your whining"

 "You can win with the new list!" 

"A good general can adapt to situations"

"Sell your useless models on Ebay and by the good ones!"
"The fluff states that DA are weaker in assault than other chapters" :S
"The fluff states that DA and BA don't have a lot of adamantium mantles" :|

Needless to say not much headway was made. . .

My proposal/question/rant is:  Can't GW devote some of it's millions of dollars towards getting the manpower to redo all the lists (or at least large chunks of armies) at once (or over a relative period of time [1 year or less]?

Judging from their track record and statements I have heard. Codexii will be redone at the same pace (2-3 per year)  leaving the ones "lucky" enough to be redone gimped for a long time against those who have not been redone.  At this rate the changes suffered by DA & BA will become moot when they inevitably switch over to 40K v4.5 or whatever they call it . ..

I seem to remember when GW shifted warhammer fantasy from v4 to v5 they issued a book called ravening hordes that updated all the lists in a barebones fashion.  At the very minimum couldn't GW do something along these lines?  Any thoughts on this matter?

I am not looking for people to justify the awesomeness of the DA codex.  I am sure people can win with it, and some might even enjoy it, but I find the rules infantile, restrictive and bland.


 P.S.-  -I think it's shameful they have ignored the Orks codex for so long and they continue to micromanage  SM rules (and if I was a paranoid conspiracy freak I might think they were doing it to massage a few more profits out of their flagging sales)

Interrogator-Chaplain Severus

Yes. They could. Will they?

It seems not. They had the opportunity to get a clean slate when 4th came out, but decided to keep the old lousy Codexes.

Part of it is their release schedule (models + codex) and part of it is that 4th was a rush job (from conversations by Andy Chambers). GW wanted to get a quick fix out the door now. As a result, there probably wouldn't have been enough time to revise and edit all the lists at once.

Of course, the big problem is that GW changed horses in midstream. Codex Space Marines, Black Templars, Tau Empire and even Eldar all pointed to things being refinements on 3rd and giving greater options and customization. Then in the middle of the edition GW completely reversed course 180 degrees and decided to try to emulate 2nd edition while restricting the choices so that a 5 year old (according to Jervis) could easily field as good an army as strong a 20 year veteran.

The results went about as well as you could expect that strategy. Codex Dark Angels isn't bad - there is a fair bit you can do with it. It certainly does have a number of flaws - particularly in relation to other Codexes.

The only bright note is that 4th edition is nearing the twilight of its run. Hopefully 5th edition will really overhaul the core game rules, reset all the Codexes and bring more depth and tactics to the game.

Interrogator-Chaplain Asmodai

Posted By ChaplainSeverus on 06/01/2007 5:19 PM
My proposal/question/rant is:  Can't GW devote some of it's millions of dollars towards getting the manpower to redo all the lists (or at least large chunks of armies) at once (or over a relative period of time [1 year or less]?

It's not a question of manpower.  The slow pace of new releases is a business decision.  They want to hype each new release as much as they can and milk it for all it's worth.  They would not be able to do this if they released all the armies at once.  Furthermore, they have stated that the rules only exist to sell models.  Thus their policy is to only release rules to accompany the release (or re-release) of models.  So the rate at which new rules appear is limited by the rate at which new models are released which in turn is dictated by the needs of the business.  Even if they had all the models for the next 5 years sculpted, casted, and ready to go they would not release them all at once since flooding the market with new models would only serve to cannibalize their own sales. 

Posted By ChaplainSeverus on 06/01/2007 5:19 PM
I  tried to discuss  this over at B&C and got a face full of . . .

"Quit your whining"

 "You can win with the new list!" 

"A good general can adapt to situations"

"Sell your useless models on Ebay and by the good ones!"
"The fluff states that DA are weaker in assault than other chapters" :S
"The fluff states that DA and BA don't have a lot of adamantium mantles" :|

Needless to say not much headway was made. . .

Be careful of the Bolter and Chainsword, Severus.  Only through Dakka can you achieve a power greater than any fanboi.

Posted By Asmodai on 06/01/2007 5:31 PM
Yes. They could. Will they?
 Then in the middle of the edition GW completely reversed course 180 degrees and decided to try to emulate 2nd edition while restricting the choices so that a 5 year old (according to Jervis) could easily field as good an army as strong a 20 year veteran.


Where can I find this Jervis?  Or at least his statements so I can read them. . .


The only bright note is that 4th edition is nearing the twilight of its run. Hopefully 5th edition will really overhaul the core game rules, reset all the Codexes and bring more depth and tactics to the game.


is 4th edition broken?  I thought it was a decent improvement from v3.  Or is it the inevitable GW shift of rules so that people are forced to abandon certain models and buy new ones again?

Interrogator-Chaplain Severus

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 06/01/2007 6:05 PM

It's not a question of manpower.  The slow pace of new releases is a business decision.  They want to hype each new release as much as they can and milk it for all it's worth.  They would not be able to do this if they released all the armies at once.  Furthermore, they have stated that the rules only exist to sell models.  Thus their policy is to only release rules to accompany the release (or re-release) of models.  So the rate at which new rules appear is limited by the rate at which new models are released which in turn is dictated by the needs of the business.  Even if they had all the models for the next 5 years sculpted, casted, and ready to go they would not release them all at once since flooding the market with new models would only serve to cannibalize their own sales. 

But couldn't GW create a bare bones balanced list of all armies in a single compendium for a first release and dole out full codex/models releases at the same slow  time intervals?  Or is it that the various armies can never be balanced because of their varying strengths/weaknesses like some giant rock,paper,scissors matchup?

Be careful of the Bolter and Chainsword, Severus.  Only through Dakka can you achieve a power greater than any fanboi.

I'll keep that in mind.  This board seems to have people who are more capable of factual debates, but sometimes the posts remind me of a shark feeding frenzy. . .

Interrogator-Chaplain Severus

EDIT: Apologies for botching how to quote someone.  If there is a faq on how to do it I will read. . . just point me in the right direction.

It's in one of the interminable long DA threads here. Jervis said that his 5 year old son was confused by the old codex layout, so they simplified things with the new layout and options. This generated about the same reaction as you'd expect from the veteran players here.


4th edition isn't broken. It's actually (IMO) the most fun and most balanced version of 40K yet. 2nd edition was too damn slow, had too many super-characters, too much completely random stuff going on (the virus card, vortex grenades, pulsa rockets) and it just got bogged down.

3rd edition had too many Rhino rush armies and assault was so overpowering that shooting become pointless.

4th is a nice medium. I'd like to see a few minor things added back in - overwatch or charge reactions, units splitting fire, and save modifiers for weapons would add a lot of depth to the game and none of them would slow it down very much at all.

There is the shift (though it's never really hit me for more than 10 models in any of my armies - yay for core troops). I think that that's not really the source of the problems with 4th edition. There's a few ambiguities, a bit much simplification, and a lot of balance issues (i.e. skimmers).

5th edition has a chance to remedy most of the problems. Most of them would require a Codex reset to fix though just because balancing, for example, skimmers so that Orks would have a chance against them would probably effect their points value and change how a lot of Eldar and Tau wargear operates.

"But couldn't GW create a bare bones balanced list of all armies in a single compendium for a first release and dole out full codex/models releases at the same slow time intervals?"

It worked fine in WFB 6th ed. By all accounts a well-liked and well-received game.


"This board seems to have people who are more capable of factual debates, but sometimes the posts remind me of a shark feeding frenzy. . ."

Only when there's chum in the water.

This is a very simple topic:

Could GW fix the game?
Of course they could.

Will they?
Hell no!

Why?
In their eyes, there's nothing wrong with the game.

4th Ed was a dumbing down of the already dumbed down 3rd Ed and yes, changing the way they do things (original 4th Ed Codex style to the craptacular Dark Angels style) was a bad, bad idea.

BYE

While I understand the financial gain from releasing books in a more sporadic fashion, they really should just make all the lists balanced with each other, like they did in 3rd ed with the lists in the book.

They dont have to release them all at once, but they should have a very concise idea, if not completed codicies for each army before they release the first codex of a new edition.

So when it does come time to release X codex, all they have to worry about is models, and fluff.

To do anything else, and expect a modicum of balance throughout is nothing more than folly. It doesnt mean I dont still enjoy playing, cause I really do. I love 40K. But I am smart enough to relaize that an overall balance is missing because of the haphazard ways GW does things. They obviously didnt know what the heel they were doing with 4th edition, and the DA codex is a testament to that. If they did in fact, know what the hell they were doing as a company, you would not see the DA "Balance" attempt being made.

People who also dont realize that the DA codex isnt balanced or that 4th ed is a flop as far as a structured company plan, have their heads so far up their asses, or their noses so far up GW's asses, it really defies comprehension. $th edition is more of a money making beta testing.

You dont call something balanced unless there is a point of reference to balance something with. A counterpoint as it were.

Here is a bit of news and rumours for you:

GW plans on releasing many of their codecies in the form of a White dwarf article for many reasons.
1) The most obvious reason is to make people buy WD again.
2) Free beta testing. It is also quite obvious that the wargaming market on the whole an playtest their product better than GW can.
3) GW is on the fast track to 5th edition. This will happen no later than 2009.
3a) Because of that, you will see fewer codicies as GW tries to balance everything to each other ala the dark angels style.

Sorry, I am not citing sources for this, but between common sense and a bit of thought to how GW acts as of late, and I am sure a few might come to the same conclusions as well.

Posted By ChaplainSeverus on 06/01/2007 8:22 PM

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 06/01/2007 6:05 PM

Be careful of the Bolter and Chainsword, Severus.  Only through Dakka can you achieve a power greater than any fanboi.

I'll keep that in mind.  This board seems to have people who are more capable of factual debates, but sometimes the posts remind me of a shark feeding frenzy. . .

Yeah it can get venomous here, but if you take it all for what it is worth, Dakka is a very constructive place.

if you are like Paul "Fat Bloke" Sawyer and have the propensity to get your little feelers hurt when a 15 year old replies to your post and it isnt brown nosing, but telling it like it is, then you may find dakka to be less than what you hoped for.

Hard data, backed by passionate posters.

Honest change doesnt come by patting each other on the back for attempting to try.

It comes from earning accolades not easily won.

Many people at GW should think about that.

QFT.

Posted By ChaplainSeverus on 06/01/2007 5:19 PM
fate of weaker IC's without choices

Just out of curiosity, have you seen the new stats for Mephiston?

5th edition will either kill GW or save the company. Everyone seriously interested in 40K will have to decide to buy the new rules (at £40 a pop?) and then upgrade their codexes and armies, or else drop the game.

Releasing codexes in WD would be a bad idea simply because magazines have a shelf life. A month after release, all the unsold copies in newsagents get pulped. In the UK, something like 25-30% of copies printed get pulped (that's below average for Europe.) Each pulped copy is money down the drain.

Whereas codex books stay on shelves until sold or the next edition comes out, and GW can print a small number and reprint when they start to run low. Much more efficient, probably 90%+ sell-through.

Posted By Kilkrazy on 06/02/2007 9:19 AM
5th edition will either kill GW or save the company. Everyone seriously interested in 40K will have to decide to buy the new rules (at £40 a pop?) and then upgrade their codexes and armies, or else drop the game.

Releasing codexes in WD would be a bad idea simply because magazines have a shelf life. A month after release, all the unsold copies in newsagents get pulped. In the UK, something like 25-30% of copies printed get pulped (that's below average for Europe.) Each pulped copy is money down the drain.

Whereas codex books stay on shelves until sold or the next edition comes out, and GW can print a small number and reprint when they start to run low. Much more efficient, probably 90%+ sell-through.

The beauty of that is that a few moths after the white dwarfs are released, they make the wd codex available via free PDF.

so unless youre looking for professionally printed rules via wd, you dont have to worry about availabilty.

they still make money on selling the white dwarfs, and it gives people a chance to get some adhoc updated rules until a proper codex is printed.

Which equals even more money for GW even though they are offering it as a free product later.

Posted By ChaplainSeverus on 06/01/2007 5:19 PM
Dakka-ites,


I seem to remember when GW shifted warhammer fantasy from v4 to v5 they issued a book called ravening hordes that updated all the lists in a barebones fashion.  At the very minimum couldn't GW do something along these lines?  Any thoughts on this matter?

The rules changes in that case were extreme.  Fantasy went from a game where 50% of your points had to be spend on troops, to a game where you had to take a certain number of core units before you could start getting froggy.  In other words, it stopped being HeroHammer, and became a much better game.  However, all the old army lists would not work, as written, with the new rules.  Hence Ravening Hordes.  They did such a good job that some army lists stayed viable for years (Wood Elves) or are still viable today (Chaos Dwarfs).  {Note that 'viable' does not mean 'perfect'.}

They have issued no similar list with the release of 7th edition fantasy.  The current army books work well enough.  I still hate on certain units and wait eagerly for them to be nerfed (Salamanders!), but in general the armies we've got work just fine with the minor tweakings that are 7th ed.

Since most of the 40K armies work 'well enough' with the current 40K rules, I'm sure Games Workshop sees no reason to put out something like the Ravening Hordes list for 40K.  If the next iteration of 40K has sweeping changes in army structure and other rules, they might do it; but I think backwards compatibility is the watchword in the game design cells.  In other words, the new rules need to work  'well enough' with the codexii that are already out, so that there is no need to have a massive, across-the-board rewrite of the codexii. 

Hopefully, this approach will keep sales steady, and the company can confidently expect little up-ticks in sales with the release of each updated codex.

Personally, I think they may be misreading their market.

Posted By Bookwrack on 06/02/2007 7:49 AM

Just out of curiosity, have you seen the new stats for Mephiston?

just picked up the WD today (i felt a little cheap getting sucked into their scheme to sell more White Dwarfs)

Mephiston is indeed beefy.  He has some flaws that make him vulnerable (no invulnerable save) but now it comes down to the problem that Mephiston shows up at every battle no matter how big or small.   Mephiston is going to be busy!

I assume the costs of the models will be released next issue?


Interrogator-Chaplain Severus

But the new DA rules won't be selling any models!

Posted By Asmodai on 06/01/2007 8:28 PM
It's in one of the interminable long DA threads here. Jervis said that his 5 year old son was confused by the old codex layout, so they simplified things with the new layout and options. This generated about the same reaction as you'd expect from the veteran players here.

We need a new 40K Ravening Hordes and a new reuleset, including a complete reworking of the vehicle rules. Amongst others.

A ravening Hordes need not disrupt codex production schedules. People will still want a new codex, butr it would be nice to see balance for a change.  As for the persistent failure of GW to learn, Asmodia's quote says it all. Jervis wants to write coecii for 5 year olds, and veterans complain.

But there is more to it than that.

What GW doesnt soom to realise is that 5 year olds dont have much purchasing power, their own management admitted (quietly) that GW was saved by LOTR because 3rd edition was 'dumbed down'. Here they are at it again.

Secondly there is something inherently wrong in marketing a game for young children. Where, excepting the Tau,  the nearest thing to a white hat faction are inveterate fascists; and it only gets darker from there.

Posted By Bookwrack on 06/02/2007 7:49 AM

Posted By ChaplainSeverus on 06/01/2007 5:19 PM
fate of weaker IC's without choices

Just out of curiosity, have you seen the new stats for Mephiston?

Just out of curiosity, have you ever wished you could field a good character without having to use special characters?

I don't like Jervis' obsession with special characters. I know he wants people to use them, but there's a difference between making special characters attractive to players and making them mandatory (DA Codex, again, being the prime example).

BYE

Okay. Time out. It's codices or, if you must, codexes. Not codecii, or coecii, or any of those other words. Please, put down the keyboard before you hurt someone.

Every time I try to tell Warseer that High Gothic = a failed Latin student's version of Latin but is still Latin, they try to tell me it's a future, EDGY (so edgy it mispells things)  version of Latin. Then they go on to make hilarious versions of words like codices. I guess that's where Emporer comes from too, since they somehow get Imperator mixed with an Emporium or something.

Surely it's Codexen?

And don't take the name of the Emporer in vain. That's heresy. Next thing you'll be doing is to malign the holy Spase Marienz and then go and become a Rouge Trader or something.

Mo'dex

It's all a question of Incremental vs. Monumental Changes. GW, at present, has no method of implementing incremental changes to their codecies. It's an all or nothing endeavor and with the lack of any real world testing we will continue to get crap like the DA's new dex. Before GW can effectively change anything they need to take a serious look at the process and framework of making change. Perhaps using WD is an attempt at that and it might work because it would allow them to make changes that are not so concrete like those in a published codex. I would love to see proposed changes to Chaos put into WD and have a chance to play with the new rules and give feedback before they are written in stone in a new codex.

Yup, he is awsome, Dante is not bad. I would say stop whining but Thats only cos there is nothing you can do and I just get pissed off when people whine about GW , STOP playing then. But No people dont stop playing they get more worked up about it. Its supposed to be a hobby, a time pass, something you do to relax,

If 40K causes this much stress and unhappyness to people for whatever reason (price, crap rules etc) then it no longer becomes a hobby but turns into a women you love so much but who despises you and causes you much pain. Shoot the "female dog" and be done with it onec and for all.

Posted By beefHeart on 06/03/2007 3:53 PM
It's all a question of Incremental vs. Monumental Changes. GW, at present, has no method of implementing incremental changes to their codecies. It's an all or nothing endeavor and with the lack of any real world testing we will continue to get crap like the DA's new dex. Before GW can effectively change anything they need to take a serious look at the process and framework of making change.

  If it's so blatantly obvious to most gamers  that they need to revamp their system of issuing codexes (how's that spelling?) why isn't it obvious to GW?  Ignorance? Are they unconcerned?  or is it some more dastardly reason?


Interrogator-Chaplain Severus

Posted By beef on 06/03/2007 4:20 PM
Yup, he is awsome, Dante is not bad. I would say stop whining but Thats only cos there is nothing you can do and I just get pissed off when people whine about GW , STOP playing then. But No people dont stop playing they get more worked up about it. Its supposed to be a hobby, a time pass, something you do to relax,

If 40K causes this much stress and unhappyness to people for whatever reason (price, crap rules etc) then it no longer becomes a hobby but turns into a women you love so much but who despises you and causes you much pain. Shoot the "female dog" and be done with it onec and for all.

Ah Beef, what's worse?  voicing opinions about the mistakes GW is making in hopes of making the our ideas known to the company that relies on us to buy their merchandise.  Or lurking around forums advising people to quit the hobby.

I am sure you must have a more pleasurable hobby you could attend to then feverishly typing "quit whining!" to total strangers.

Discussing these rules changes is actually enjoyable and cathartic.  GW doesn't offer me any "real" stress.  I can and do play other games if it gets to be more than I can take I will move on to other game systems.  But I'll be back to post rants just to keep you occupied. . .


Interrogator-Chaplain Severus

Posted By Orlanth on 06/03/2007 12:52 PM

Secondly there is something inherently wrong in marketing a game for young children. Where, excepting the Tau,  the nearest thing to a white hat faction are inveterate fascists; and it only gets darker from there.

Well, they could always revise the fluff to make the Imperium the Good Guys™.

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 06/03/2007 10:12 PM

Posted By Orlanth on 06/03/2007 12:52 PM

Secondly there is something inherently wrong in marketing a game for young children. Where, excepting the Tau,  the nearest thing to a white hat faction are inveterate fascists; and it only gets darker from there.

Well, they could always revise the fluff to make the Imperium the Good Guys™.

Whoah there bucky! You propose some might big changes there!

lets slow down a bit.

Posted By ChaplainSeverus on 06/03/2007 4:45 PM

Posted By beefHeart on 06/03/2007 3:53 PM
It's all a question of Incremental vs. Monumental Changes. GW, at present, has no method of implementing incremental changes to their codecies. It's an all or nothing endeavor and with the lack of any real world testing we will continue to get crap like the DA's new dex. Before GW can effectively change anything they need to take a serious look at the process and framework of making change.

  If it's so blatantly obvious to most gamers  that they need to revamp their system of issuing codexes (how's that spelling?) why isn't it obvious to GW?  Ignorance? Are they unconcerned?  or is it some more dastardly reason?


Interrogator-Chaplain Severus

I think it's just bussiness as usual.