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 tauist wrote:
I don't really understand why people are upset about a new game getting support from GW.

Because this "support" comes in the form of added content that can only be added because it was left out of the initial release. There were no new models released for the AdMech or Ksons since the Compendium. Anything they put in WD for them now could have already been in the Compendium.

The Compendium is larger than the rule book. The compendium lists are made for easy on ramping of the game particularly newcomers to it. These additional lists are clearly the alternative path that GW didn’t take. These are the last version 2-3 box kill teams that GW wanted to avoid. These are great for people who have played before, but really muddy the waters for most others

This isn’t stuff left out of the Compendium, but an alternate cut and I’m glad to actually have a reason to buy White Dwarf again.

 tauist wrote:
I don't really understand why people are upset about a new game getting support from GW. You don't actually have to buy any of the stuff you don't need, and from what I've hard on the tourney front, seems like the Compendium teams rule the meta anyway.. The rest is stuff more juicy stuff for us garagehammer stinky casuals

A lot of us are still pretty irritated they killed off Kill Team 1, which we liked, for this game with the same name but little in common in terms of structure and being able to design your own teams. So them dishing out endless variations on teams rather than just going back to points feels a bit insult to injury.

 The Phazer wrote:

 tauist wrote:
I don't really understand why people are upset about a new game getting support from GW. You don't actually have to buy any of the stuff you don't need, and from what I've hard on the tourney front, seems like the Compendium teams rule the meta anyway.. The rest is stuff more juicy stuff for us garagehammer stinky casuals

A lot of us are still pretty irritated they killed off Kill Team 1, which we liked

In the nicest possible way, I had no idea that Kill Team 1 had any fans at all. With the endless elite and hero expansions it just became slightly modified Bighammer in the end.

 Chairman Aeon wrote:
The Compendium is larger than the rule book. The compendium lists are made for easy on ramping of the game particularly newcomers to it. These additional lists are clearly the alternative path that GW didn’t take. These are the last version 2-3 box kill teams that GW wanted to avoid. These are great for people who have played before, but really muddy the waters for most others

This isn’t stuff left out of the Compendium, but an alternate cut and I’m glad to actually have a reason to buy White Dwarf again.

The Kill Team starter set has the high-complexity Veterans and Kommandos.

The low-complexity Compendium is aimed at players with existing collections.

GW appreciates the mental gymnastics you make on their behalf tho

 Nerbil wrote:

In the nicest possible way, I had no idea that Kill Team 1 had any fans at all. With the endless elite and hero expansions it just became slightly modified Bighammer in the end.

Fair enough, but aside from GW's continually dwindling support for the edition, and Commanders, it has always been popular with 40K players, and well regarded by the greater tabletop community.

I agree things are a bit awkward right now. Would still rather have the WD content though; the alternative isn't getting it in the compendium, the alternative is not getting it at all. But it also does little to address the problems people have.

SamusDrake wrote:

 Nerbil wrote:

In the nicest possible way, I had no idea that Kill Team 1 had any fans at all. With the endless elite and hero expansions it just became slightly modified Bighammer in the end.

Fair enough, but aside from GW's continually dwindling support for the edition, and Commanders, it has always been popular with 40K players, and well regarded by the greater tabletop community.

It always felt like Kill Team has more of an online following and it's more converters/modelers. It's hard to get leagues and the like running without a "comp" setup going, in my experience.

 The Phazer wrote:

 tauist wrote:
I don't really understand why people are upset about a new game getting support from GW. You don't actually have to buy any of the stuff you don't need, and from what I've hard on the tourney front, seems like the Compendium teams rule the meta anyway.. The rest is stuff more juicy stuff for us garagehammer stinky casuals

A lot of us are still pretty irritated they killed off Kill Team 1, which we liked, for this game with the same name but little in common in terms of structure and being able to design your own teams. So them dishing out endless variations on teams rather than just going back to points feels a bit insult to injury.

KT18 is still a viable game with a decent amount of content. I really liked it too, and before KT21 was announced, I would have been happy to just keep on playing it. But now that KT21 is out, I prefer this new edition of the game, and like it more than KT18 even when it means I can't field the same sort of teams I could still field in KT18 with all the expansions.

 Kanluwen wrote:

It always felt like Kill Team has more of an online following and it's more converters/modelers. It's hard to get leagues and the like running without a "comp" setup going, in my experience.

The customization of the models and lists was definitely a hit with players.

For certainly the last year or two, even the local gaming clubs and stores have been closed to any tournaments. Its only now that things are starting to go back to normal. It also didn't help that 9th edition moved things forward and Kill Team was left behind, Pariah Nexus left far too late in the day to matter. Oh, and GW throwing "Combat Patrol" around as if it were an amazing brand new game that made Kill Team redundant.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

The Kill Team starter set has the high-complexity Veterans and Kommandos.

The low-complexity Compendium is aimed at players with existing collections.

You got half of that right...

 lord_blackfang wrote:
GW appreciates the mental gymnastics you make on their behalf tho

Since I lived through the evolution of Rogue Trader to Warhammer 40,000 2E through White Dwarfs this really is much nicer--getting alternate takes of a game I like in a magazine that was very easy to ignore for most of the last two decades. No gymnastics needed. I just hope you find yourself in a better place and don't feel the need to drop all your negativity on a hobby board. Peace out man.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/#kill-team

Finally Errata and Designers' Commentary for Kill Team.
Biggest change for the meta Custodes now have APL3.

Wow I'm surprised they dropped them to APL 4 so soon! I've only had a chance to play the new Kill Team three times, I enjoyed playing Custodes but I never felt like I was stomping my opponent. Guess I wasn't playing them to their full potential.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/10/20/why-are-the-tau-and-imperials-fighting-over-the-vedik-system-kill-team-chalnath-has-answers/

Nothing special, short version:
- Background for Vedik System: Backwater Planet left to starve by the Imperium seceedes to the Tau. Sororitas arrive in Orbit by accident and go flamer, death, kill crazy. Resulting in the Tau being driven off. Shadowsun (who for reasons unknown to me is still alive) sends reinforcements. In the meantime Sororitas Novitiates duke it out in the underground with Infiltrators.

- Book has nine Missions

- Both Teams are supposed to get Rules for 40K "shortly after"

(who for reasons unknown to me is still alive)

Apparently the Tau stick their important commanders into stasis until narratively appropriate moments arrive.

They can just tell when the camera is on.

Don't they also have all of their commanders in AI chips that they can plug into people? Might not be the real Shadowsun, could be a T'au commander with her chip.

 GiToRaZor wrote:
Shadowsun (who for reasons unknown to me is still alive)

Because the model is still for sale, duh!

People take fictional worlds a bit too seriously. Also, many of us don't read GW fiction and don't care if it's canon or not. "Can I take it in my army" is much more important than, "what is the current day in the Imperium and is <insert special character here> still alive or even born yet."

Rihgu wrote:
Don't they also have all of their commanders in AI chips that they can plug into people? Might not be the real Shadowsun, could be a T'au commander with her chip.

They have engrams of the really important ones, yes.

But Voss is also correct. They keep the important ones in cryogenic stasis--waking them up when necessary.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
Don't they also have all of their commanders in AI chips that they can plug into people? Might not be the real Shadowsun, could be a T'au commander with her chip.

They have engrams of the really important ones, yes.

But Voss is also correct. They keep the important ones in cryogenic stasis--waking them up when necessary.

I mean there is preparing for the last war, and then there is actually staffing your military with people who fought the last war

And here was me thinking that the Tau were the one (non-tyranid) dynamic race still evolving their systems...

I was looking at the new novitiates models again and now I can't unsee that the models look like a Blood Bowl team more than something out of the ole 40,000 AD!

Maybe its the helmet

 Flinty wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
Don't they also have all of their commanders in AI chips that they can plug into people? Might not be the real Shadowsun, could be a T'au commander with her chip.

They have engrams of the really important ones, yes.

But Voss is also correct. They keep the important ones in cryogenic stasis--waking them up when necessary.

I mean there is preparing for the last war, and then there is actually staffing your military with people who fought the last war

And here was me thinking that the Tau were the one (non-tyranid) dynamic race still evolving their systems...

Short lifespans and the promise of future progress worked just fine when the setting was 999.M41 and nobody needed to answer what would happen a year, ten years or a hundred years later. Doesn't work so well anymore with both the ongoing story approach and presenting characters as super heroes who can't die (because what will become of the models then? Think of the horror of using a canonically dead character!)

But don't worry, GW would have you believe Tau are an alliance of various species, too, and spent the last fifteen years proving it by releasing more mecha...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tauist wrote:
I was looking at the new novitiates models again and now I can't unsee that the models look like a Blood Bowl team more than something out of the ole 40,000 AD!

Maybe its the helmet

Frankly I would have thought Sisters of Sigmar were an easier thing to get from looking at the models. After all they follow the trusted Imperial design of mashing together medieval fantasy and sci-fi elements. Only in this case the models are missing a lot of the latter, so all that's left is the fantasy nun look.

They're notably missing the angled arm and clenched fist look that is so widespread among Blood Bowl models.

But maybe that's just me.

Seems there's been literally hundreds of in-lore years since the Tyranids or the T'au, the supposedly evolving and progressing races did any of the either, eh?

Chairman Aeon wrote:

 GiToRaZor wrote:
Shadowsun (who for reasons unknown to me is still alive)

Because the model is still for sale, duh!

Yup. She just got a new primarisized super deluxe $$$ version to replace the little metal one.

Voss wrote:

(who for reasons unknown to me is still alive)

Apparently the Tau stick their important commanders into stasis until narratively appropriate moments arrive.

They can just tell when the camera is on.

The drones all have a little red light that is on when recording. Admech versions keep getting gummed up with melted wax.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Seems there's been literally hundreds of in-lore years since the Tyranids or the T'au, the supposedly evolving and progressing races did any of the either, eh?

They realized the multi-century timeskip cause problems and ret-conned it. We're only decades after fall of Cadia now afaik (though maybe a lore-junky can correct me on that?). That said the warp messes with time so some areas could have had more or less time passing.

 Chairman Aeon wrote:

 GiToRaZor wrote:
Shadowsun (who for reasons unknown to me is still alive)

Because the model is still for sale, duh!

People take fictional worlds a bit too seriously. Also, many of us don't read GW fiction and don't care if it's canon or not. "Can I take it in my army" is much more important than, "what is the current day in the Imperium and is <insert special character here> still alive or even born yet."

Well that is good for you and I hope you are having fun. For me personally (I know, the horrors of people daring to have other opinions), I do enjoy suspension of disbelief. Btw. I never said something about me going to your private game night, crashing the door in, stating that you can't field the miniature because the character could not be canonically be in your fictious battle and then stomp of under the hymns of Rule Britannia. I hope you catch the sarcasm. But then I dread that people like that might exist.

There has been a long history of Models being dead in the canon and stating them would make me look feverishly older than I am already. Also it used to be that you could field a model under the rules of epic hero xyz, it just happened that your dudes/gals had by coincidence generated the same character load out. Or in the event of anything weird, it was just the warp, works for me. But to have a character there canonically forever (Shadowsun gained her position for the third expansion, we are at the fifth now and there are supposed to be decades in between them) is working quite against my suspension of disbelief. I can get on with the personality AI chip, that is similar to the Eldar for many time and canonical death circumstances. Quite the solution to the problem, I wish they would make it more prominent though. Because a society of dead people AIs blasting from 15m high holograms, telling the general populace what they got to do, while inevitably deteriorating. Now that would be magnificently grimdark.

 GiToRaZor wrote:

For me personally, I do enjoy suspension of disbelief. Btw.

And I unsarcastically ask you why you like 40K.

My point still stands that most people at a table don't know who is alive or what the exact date the game is being played on. You don't have to come all the way to my house to see this.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Seems there's been literally hundreds of in-lore years since the Tyranids or the T'au, the supposedly evolving and progressing races did any of the either, eh?

They realized the multi-century timeskip cause problems and ret-conned it. We're only decades after fall of Cadia now afaik (though maybe a lore-junky can correct me on that?). That said the warp messes with time so some areas could have had more or less time passing.

Yep.

8th started with the end of the Indomitus Crusade two centuries or whatever after Guilliman revival. But that was retconned. Now the Indomitus Crusade is ongoing.

Is a complete mess and I'm probably citting stuff wrong, but basically they back pedaled in the advancing the timeline a couple centuries.

 Galas wrote:

8th started with the end of the Indomitus Crusade two centuries or whatever after Guilliman revival. But that was retconned. Now the Indomitus Crusade is ongoing.

Is a complete mess and I'm probably citting stuff wrong, but basically they back pedaled in the advancing the timeline a couple centuries.

Which was comically stupid, BTW. Two centuries is about right time for galactic crusade, for primaris to be integrated fully into most chapters, and for newly founded Ultima chapters to finally have captains and veterans of their own. Now? In an attempt to appease people screeching about timeline, GW made much bigger mess and far bigger problems. Eight years is not enough time for a regular IoM crusade, never mind Indomitus scale one!

And it's not like there isn't a precedent for the original timeline, either, Ciaphas Cain books are set three centuries into M42 and no one complained...

 Irbis wrote:

 Galas wrote:

8th started with the end of the Indomitus Crusade two centuries or whatever after Guilliman revival. But that was retconned. Now the Indomitus Crusade is ongoing.

Is a complete mess and I'm probably citting stuff wrong, but basically they back pedaled in the advancing the timeline a couple centuries.

Which was comically stupid, BTW. Two centuries is about right time for galactic crusade, for primaris to be integrated fully into most chapters, and for newly founded Ultima chapters to finally have captains and veterans of their own. Now? In an attempt to appease people screeching about timeline, GW made much bigger mess and far bigger problems. Eight years is not enough time for a regular IoM crusade, never mind Indomitus scale one!

And it's not like there isn't a precedent for the original timeline, either, Ciaphas Cain books are set three centuries into M42 and no one complained...

I agree with every word. That retcon is stupid even for GW.

I don't feel like I know enough to make the call. We don't even know how much time passed between fall of Cadia and the great rift opening, or how long it took for the great rift to open, or when the Indomitus Crusade happens relative to those.