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Ok, I posted this at Warseer.com, they deleted it.  This is a rough draft of a letter I want to send to GW.  There are a few key points I want to make.

One, I know my models can still be used when the new chaos book comes out.  I can use count as to do it, but I am so upset because I spent a lot of money on models, and now those models are usable with the counts as rule.

I know its just a game, but it was a financial commitment.  I used their bitz service to make my army WYSIWYG, which is their rule.  They purposely don't make models so that you will use the bitz service.  They call it being a hobbyist.   Well, several hundred dolars worht of models of mine will have to be hacked apart, weapons replaced, paint jobs redone, just to make it WYSIWYG.  I feel like we Slaanesh players have been bait and switched.

******************************************************************************************************************************************************8

Let me start by saying that I am a 33 year old male, who started playing Warhammer 40,000 in 1987.

In that time, I have owned 2 tryranid armies, 1 chaos space marine army, 3 mordheim Warbands, 1 Vampire Counts army, 1 Dark Elves army, 1 Sisters of Battle Army and 3 Necromunda Gangs.

When I say army, each 40K army was no less than 3000 points.

 

Currently, I have a 5000 point Tyranid army.  I have 3 generation of tyranid warriors, 6 of each 3 generations.

All three Hive Tyrants, 6 carnifex, 2 of each generation, 40 2nd edetion gaunts, 32 3rd edetion spinegaunts, 32 3rd edetion hormagaunts, 20 gargoyles, 6 raveners, one is illegal with a venom cannon, 3 old tyant guard, 2 new ones, 80 genestealers, 3 lictors, 1 from second edition, 2 new ones, 3 second edetion boivores, 1 second edetion zoanthrope, 1 third edetion zoanthrope, 1 4th edition zoanthrope, I have a armorcast malefactor and exocrine.  I have 10 bases of rippers.

Of all of my tyranids, one the one ravener is illegal now.  I am out 9.99 that I bought it for.

I have 4500 points in dark elves.  These are all usable in 7th edition, nothing was ruled illegal.

My mordheim warbands are legal.

The problem is my Chaos Space Marine army.

I use counts as for my Rogue trader era plasma cannons, they are las cannons.

the 4 las cannons that I have are legal.

My 8 heavy bolters are legal, my 6 missile launchers are legal, my 120 chaos marines, these are all fine and good.

 

I have 300-400 dollars worth of useless chaos marines now.

I have a lord, and his retinue is 5 chaos chosen (5+1 makes 6).  These are 6 marine legs, 6 space marine bald heads with respirator, the lord has the grey knight halberd arm, the 5 have power weapons and plasma pistols.  All 6 have the torsos of chaos marauders, with the cloaks cut to fit as fur hanging from the backs of their belts.

The marauder box was 35.00, the marine box was 35.00, the 6 plasma pistols where 6.00 each from the assault marine sprue, the swords came from my bits boxes, the heads where 4.50 for the 6 from battle wagon bits.  This is a plastic squad that cost 80.50, plus shipping.  This squad was legal, and now its not.  I have to hack off some plasma pistols.

I have 10 bikers, thats 150.00.  10 sonic blaster bits, 3.50 each, thats 3.50.  They are not illegal.

I have a staggering 20 terminators from 1996, when the noise marine terminator was born.  They where legal in 2nd, 3rd, 3.5, illegal in 4th now. The sonic blasters where a measly 1.50 back then, setting me back 30.00.  20 terminators is 100.00.

Add that up. 

I have a personal rule, I don't play with unpainted minis, period.  I have to hack these paint jobs up now to change weapons, I have to buy new bitz to replace ones that are illegal.

I should not have to do this. 

I know the GW retort will be to wait until the book comes out, but rumors on GW products are usually deadly accurate.

There is no reason why paying customers are now left holding pounds of material that was paid for with hundreds of dollars, just to have it unusable.  There is no fault of my own that I made a dedicated Slaanesh army, instead of usual suspects Khorne on the Cobb army.  I hate boring loyalist marine armies.

In the books I owned and used for years, my models where good, September 2007, I am short money, as my bought and paid for models now require opponents permission to use now.

I am seriosuly conscidering talking to an attorney, just on the long shot there is something we consumers can do about this.

You preach WYSIWYG, push that one us, introduce this bitz service, preach it as a hobbyist's way of doing things, purposely make rules with no models to encourage us toi use this service, then bait and switch us by telling us ll these models we bought and paid for now are relegated to counts as, which breaks WYSIWYG.

 

Do I want to sue GW? No.

You place too much importance on published rules. A short chat with your game pals before you start would sort out most of your compaints. If you want to go and play at sanctioned events, then go with the flow.

BTW, I'm not surprised your post got deleted at Warseer.

Nothing personal, but ...   http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting.php 

You have no case.

No one is forcing you to purchase the new edition.

Each edition on its own is still a playable game.




This is like suing Teh Intarnetz for providing you with free porn when you had already purchased Debbie does Dallas 30 years ago. It's not Al Gore's fault that you don't want to use your VCR anymore.

Good luck with that letter. I would try to engage a secretary with some grammatical and spelling abilities before you secure legal representation.

I hope you get Satan as your lawyer...you are going to need her. Your case is...tenuous, at best.

I screwed up, I should have posted the subject "I want to sue"

BTW, before anyone comes in here and start flaming me, group up a little.  I am not flaming anyone here.  I am attempting to start  a discussion, on a discussion forum, on a topic the forum was made for. 

I am starting a discussion, and hopefully getting someone who has some legal experience.

I know I can still play 3rd, 2nd or even RT.  I realise that, but in an official capacity, I am out some serious dollars.  They have literally invalidated a lot of money for several slaanesh players.

With counts as, I have to say the SB on the terminators are combi bolters,, on the bikes, twin linked bolters.  That is two different weapon stats, same look, that breaks counts as.

Also, in my key points, I point out that we chaos players where encouraged to spend the extra money to make a slaanesh dedicated army, because none of our options had official models, we had to convert most of it, with bitz.  That fiancial chunk is now for nothing.

Posted By dienekes96 on 06/05/2007 7:56 AM
Good luck with that letter. I would try to engage a secretary with some grammatical and spelling abilities before you secure legal representation.

I hope you get Satan as your lawyer...you are going to need her. Your case is...tenuous, at best.

LOL! yeah man, spell checker is my friend.  When I said rough draft, I meant rough. 

There your post is fixed.

Posted By dienekes96 on 06/05/2007 7:56 AM
Your case is...tenuous, at best.

I think you're being optimistic here.

No one with legal experience will discuss your issues over the internet (probably). Our legal indemnity insurance doesn't cover it, and one can still be liable for advice given to 'phantom clients'.

Just saying.

Posted By Slave on 06/05/2007 8:00 AM
I screwed up, I should have posted the subject "I want to sue"

BTW, before anyone comes in here and start flaming me, group up a little.  I am not flaming anyone here.  I am attempting to start  a discussion, on a discussion forum, on a topic the forum was made for. 

I am starting a discussion, and hopefully getting someone who has some legal experience.

Slave,  you want us to group up and flame you? :| or grow up before we do? >

Either way.  you have a right to an opinion but your theory is pretty far out there.  Beyond the realms of logic.  When you purchase models there is no guarantee that the models will do anything other than just be models.  You're better of tilting against windmills than trying to sue GW on this course of reasoning. . .

if you wanted to open a case on severe emotional abuse however  . . .


Interrogator-Chaplain Severus

Posted By DaIronGob on 06/05/2007 8:10 AM

I screwed up, I should have NOTposted the subject "I want to sue"

BTW, before anyone comes in here and starts flaming me, grow up a little. I am not flaming anyone here. I am attempting to start a discussion, on a discussion forum, on a topic that makes no sense.

I am starting a discussion, and hopefully getting someone who has some legal experience. To legally tell me that I have no chance because I have no chance and no lawyer would touch this... ever.

I know I can still play 3rd, 2nd or even RT. I realize that, but in an official capacity, I am out some serious dollars. They have literally invalidated a lot of money for several slaanesh players.

With counts as, I have to say the SB on the terminators are combi bolters,, on the bikes, twin linked bolters. That is two different weapon stats, same look, that breaks counts as.

Also, in my key points, I point out that we chaos players were encouraged to spend the extra money to make a slaanesh dedicated army, because none of our options had official models, we had to convert most of it, with bitz. That fianancial chunk is now for nothing, other than the pleasure of creating an army for a LUXURY HOBBY. Oh wait, that's the point.

There your post is fixed.

/sigh        flames in disguise.  Can anything be said on the damn forum with out a dakkite coming in and being a wise ass? 

Russ, please delete this post, seems like my statement that this place is a cesspool of flamers is starting to come true again.

Good Luck, but I don't think you will find any attorney to take your case.

There are many similar situations today.

1. HD TV Signal - The government is mandating that by 20?? all TV stations must broadcast in HD signal only. Do you have any recourse against your TV manufacturer?
2. Blue-Ray/HD DVD - Your older DVD's may still work but they are not HD quality.
3. VHS - Fewer and fewer companies are supporting this.
4. Digital Cameras - Many new digital cameras use multiple gigabyte SD disks. Your old camera can't take those.

All of these situations are similar to your present issue.

Posted By ChaplainSeverus on 06/05/2007 8:13 AM

Posted By Slave on 06/05/2007 8:00 AM
I screwed up, I should have posted the subject "I want to sue"

BTW, before anyone comes in here and start flaming me, group up a little.  I am not flaming anyone here.  I am attempting to start  a discussion, on a discussion forum, on a topic the forum was made for. 

I am starting a discussion, and hopefully getting someone who has some legal experience.

Slave,  you want us to group up and flame you? :| or grow up before we do? >

Either way.  you have a right to an opinion but your theory is pretty far out there.  Beyond the realms of logic.  When you purchase models there is no guarantee that the models will do anything other than just be models.  You're better of tilting against windmills than trying to sue GW on this course of reasoning. . .

if you wanted to open a case on severe emotional abuse however  . . .


Interrogator-Chaplain Severus

yeah, i want to be ganged up on and mass flamed, yeah, thats exactly what I meant.

Posted By inquisitor_bob on 06/05/2007 8:20 AM
Good Luck, but I don't think you will find any attorney to take your case.

There are many similar situations today.

1. HD TV Signal - The government is mandating that by 20?? all TV stations must broadcast in HD signal only. Do you have any recourse against your TV manufacturer?
2. Blue-Ray/HD DVD - Your older DVD's may still work but they are not HD quality.
3. VHS - Fewer and fewer companies are supporting this.
4. Digital Cameras - Many new digital cameras use multiple gigabyte SD disks. Your old camera can't take those.

All of these situations are similar to your present issue.

hmm, this is a good point.  Thanks for contributing man.  I will be speaking by not spending any money on their, but it just sucks that so much money gets to go down the drain.  Could be worse, I could own a squats army, or a few Man O' War armies

IN BEFORE LOCK!

I don't have any legal experience, so I cannot make any helpful comments on the merits of your case. That said, here are some unhelpful ones: take it to Judge Judy. She will explain to you that there is no signed contract between you and Games Workshop stating that they will not change the rules at any time they choose to do so. That you are upset by the significant investment of time and money in your hobby is understandable, but this is a hobby and no one forces you to play. You would have as much luck trying to sue a casino because you did not win the jackpot, or trying to sue your golf club maker because your game did not improve after you bought the thousand-dollar clubs.

It is possible that you could find some unscrupulous class-action law firm to take your case, and try to sue GW on behalf of the class of wargamers who have been playing more than three editions, in which case they will make the money and the class will probably get a coupon for a free blister pack. It is more likely that you will find some ambulance-chasing personal injury lawyer who will take your case (and not for free) and milk you for fees as long as you are willing to pay.

On the other hand, by all means, send the letter to GW. They need to hear that the veterans are pissed, and frankly, a letter carries far more weight than pages and pages of internet whining. (And for internet whining, this is a great place!)

Instead of telling them "I am considering legal action", which will give them a nice chuckle, tell them "I am giving away all my miniatures and will never buy a Games Workshop product again".  The thought of free miniatures makes the bean-counters' bowels go all cold and trembly.

I have no legal experience, but I don't think you have much of a leg to stand on. There are others out there with much worse complaints dude. Think of all the Squat players, the Fomorian players, the Chaos Dwarf players. Think of armies which have units advertised in the codex but never actually recieve sculpts for them (Ork codex?).
You probably won't get anywhere with this and would just lose money. My advice is unfortunately common in these parts-suck it up and keep enjoying the aspects you enjoy, with the occasional catharthic whine on here if you like, or vote with your wallet and stop purchasing GW stuff.

Posted By Slave on 06/05/2007 8:00 AM
I screwed up, I should have posted the subject "I want to sue"

BTW, before anyone comes in here and start flaming me, group up a little.  I am not flaming anyone here.  I am attempting to start  a discussion, on a discussion forum, on a topic the forum was made for. 

I am starting a discussion, and hopefully getting someone who has some legal experience.

I know I can still play 3rd, 2nd or even RT.  I realise that, but in an official capacity, I am out some serious dollars.  They have literally invalidated a lot of money for several slaanesh players.

With counts as, I have to say the SB on the terminators are combi bolters,, on the bikes, twin linked bolters.  That is two different weapon stats, same look, that breaks counts as.

Also, in my key points, I point out that we chaos players where encouraged to spend the extra money to make a slaanesh dedicated army, because none of our options had official models, we had to convert most of it, with bitz.  That fiancial chunk is now for nothing.

 

Your complaints are reasonable.

What makes your post over-the-top is the suggestion that GW is legally liable for your dissatisfaction.   GW is not liable for dissatisfied customers. 

Your recourses are not legal.  Simply stop buying GW's product, or work out your rule complaints with the pals you play with.  YOU are the final arbitrator of how you play a game.

That said, I'd love to see this case in "People's Court."

 

Posted By Breotan on 06/05/2007 8:11 AM

Posted By dienekes96 on 06/05/2007 7:56 AM
Your case is...tenuous, at best.

I think you're being optimistic here.

Really?  I thought I had a pretty strong handle on the intricacies and nuances of Slave's case.  I must be missing something

Fellblade is correct.  If you even insinuate litigation, all they will do is laugh, and send it to their friends (like we are doing right now).  A well-written letter might make you feel better at least.

I think Breotan means, calling his case 'tenuous' is optimistic. A better adjective would be 'hopeless'. Or possibly 'quixotic', not to mention 'ridiculous'.

[Edit:] Actually, I can respect 'quixotic'.  One does not tilt at windmills in the expectation of success, but for the satisfaction of the fight.

Dude about a "9" on the tension scale.

Well, I am definately going to spell check the letter, and snail mail them one.

As for the people's court, can yall imagine cranky Judge Judy trying to decipher the thick british accents the GW people could bring in, provided they don't send in US reps!


That would be funny

Posted By Slave on 06/05/2007 9:39 AM

As for the people's court, can yall imagine cranky Judge Judy trying to decipher the thick british accents the GW people could bring in, provided they don't send in US reps!


That would be funny

Also funny would be Judge Judy mocking you, as she likely would, for being a grown man playing with army men. 

 

If you want to send it, feel free. That is your right.

But first take a second look at what you're saying.


Basically it boils down to this:
You purchased a 3rd edition rulebook and models to play with those rules.
You then purchased a 4th edition rulebook of your own volition.

Your grief is that you cannot play 4th edition with 3rd edition models.

No one took away your 3rd edition rulebook. No one told you you had to purchase or use 4th edition rules. You can still play with 3rd edition. There are many people who enjoy going back and playing older editions all the way back to Rogue Trader. Be one of these people and you'll have no reason to complain.


This is like someone who owns a functional first gen Nintendo complaining that they want to play the original Super Mario Brothers 1 on a Wii. Play it on your freaking Nintendo, it still works. If you want to use the Wii, buy a game created for the Wii.

Its funny when Kids post on the intarnetz.

I cant wait for Janthkin to see this thread. I am going to email this to Snord as well. Maybe even my consumer protection buddy back in Montana too. These people take the intarnetz seriously.

Because I am sure he will tell you what everyone else is basically telling you.

You dont have any grounds to stand your case upon.

Obsoletion is a part of life. You didnt see cavemen suing the mountains because the earth made flint obsolete when compared to bronze cutting tools.

I am going to sue Slave for wasting my intarwebz time making me read this drivel. After all he MUST be legally liable because he posted this!!!!

Pro-rate the monthly internet bill into minutes and charge Slave for the 10 minutes of my wasted life, add in damages for pain and suffering since I fixed his post for him. Not too mention the loss of sanity for viewing the unedited horror of his original letter's grammar and piss poor spelling capabilities... 33yr old? Yea right. :-D :-D

**please note the obligatory smiley which makes this reply nothing more than a friendly jab. If you choose to take offense then please realize that you are taking something that is not implied or given.**

Thats a funny Topic. good luck. AS I ALWAYS SAY TO EVERYBODY HERE STOP WHINGING (thats my catchphrase)

This isn't legal advice, but I know a bit about this sort of thing, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. Slave, what you're trying to establish is Promissory Estoppel, which is recognized in some US courts. It's defined as: "A promise which the promisor should reasonably expect to induce action or forbearance of a definite and substantial character on the part of the promisee and which does induce such action or forbearance is binding if injustice can be avoided only by enforcement of the promise." from Wikipedia.

What that means is, somebody makes a promise, you act and rely on that promise, the promise is withdrawn, and you're out some cash.

In your case, you argument (such as it is) is that you spent all that money converting units based on the reliance that the converted models would be supported in future versions of that game.

Here's the problem: you didn't spent the money based on that promise, you spent money on the promise that they would sell you bitz. They performed that promise, as you end up with a ton of sonic blasters and they have a ton of money.

You can't sue for the time you spent working, because they didn't ask you to, promise you anything, or in any way compel you to do so.

In the US, your case would probably be dismissed immediately. there are, in fact, judges who would laugh at that case if it were brought up.

As has been said many times, "There's no legal recourse for being a sucker."

Posted By Hellfury on 06/05/2007 10:19 AM
Obsoletion is a part of life. You didnt see cavemen suing the mountains because the earth made flint obsolete when compared to bronze cutting tools.

That's because they didn't have Lowell "The Hammer!" Stanley as their representation.  Those mountains would just be forlorn hills now if they did.

this is an interesting topic! Aside from the legal aspects, which I know nothing about....its interesting because there have been some who have complained that WH40K is stagnant and lacks development.....

Now, heres the squeeze. How can a company be accused of stagnation with issues like this cropping up? This thread means that things ( for better or worse ) have in fact changed and developed over the years....

It strikes me that companies just can't win. If they develope their product in a way that doesn't satisfy everyone then are "cheaters and frauds"..if on the other hand they keep things the same ( think of chess for example ) then they are accused of resting on their laurals and lack creativity....

I'm going to sue Hellfury for stealing my idea for mullet weaves and colored mullet extensions!