Thoughts on todays Market

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**Empire1**

I found this article and was wondering what everyone's thoughts are based on current trends. - G

Board and Miniatures Making Comeback 12/20/2005

In my usual reading from gaming industry magazines and press releases from Video game, PC, and non-PC sources, I found an increasing number of articles talking about the resurgence of the board game and miniatures gaming genres. These articles note two primary reasons for this. The need for human interaction. While PC and Video console games all have the ability to played with others usually its with remote link-ups that have players in there own rooms interacting over the internet with others. Seems that the wonder of the Internet in making the world smaller has somewhat worn off and many gamers long for face to face comradeship of the gaming tables. Second reason noted often is the increasing complexity and cost of maintaining a computer "rig" that can keep up with ever-increasing demands of modern Video and PC games. PC gamers need to sup up or replace their computers every 6 months or more to keep up with new releases. This bite into the wallet is growing long in the tooth for many gamers. Add in the Video game industry self admitted woes in the realms of originality in design and complaints from consumers about lack of "re-playability" in many new titles and you have a formula for a come back in the non-PC gaming markets.

Some big names have taken note of this and put in their bids to evolve with this change in the Hobby gaming industry. Microsoft bought a board game company "Days of Wonder". Age of Mythology, a Microsoft PC gaming title Hit is now available as board game from D.o.W. Many other well known PC titles have board game versions as well: Warcraft, Civilization, and the Granddaddy of FPS titles: Doom, have all made the transition. Microsoft also plans to release many new titles out of the gate as both PC and board games. This parallel release formula may be the best news of all. It shows that in the future the very thing many attribute to the virtual destruction of the table top and board game genre now not only will co-exist with it, it very will may insure its existence. It is true though that the PC is in the past has been increasingly used as life support to keep the struggling Board and miniatures game alive with things like PBEM and VASSAL it is not till now that we see big money involved in supporting such lifelines.

This all seems like encouraging news. Non PC gamers seem encouraged and new generations of board gamers are emerging that may have otherwise been lost to the magic al eye candy of the video game. With this encouraging news I feel I MUST voice my words of caution. I jot all this news down in my good thing's list with pencil. Why? Because corporate involvement can be as easy a killer as savior. To those whom have labored on there spare time to keep the non PC hobby going with Game designs and computer assists, online fan sites and opponent finders. Re-double your efforts! In order to ensure hobbies long-term life participation and ingenuity must continue. One of the reasons we have this good fortune in the non-PC side of the hobby is because of issues inside the PC and video markets. Too much corporate control, lack of originality and quality is a problem the PC industry has freely admitted to themselves and others. The big names putting money to non-PC must be checked and balanced with smaller companies and individuals also contributing or the same staleness will occur while the Big names wring out every last dome they can and move on.

In conclusion, non-PC gamers rejoice in this news. But remain vigilant to protect this hobby from raiders. Use the corporate interest in this market to our advantage to keep the market strong. Do NOT let them use this resurgence to take the money and run.

**Lormax**

www.boardgamegeek.com

Probably my most-used site before I purchase a new game.

**Empire1**

Posted By Lormax on 06/07/2007 9:09 AM
www.boardgamegeek.com

Probably my most-used site before I purchase a new game.

I was hoping for a thought or two on that article not a site reference ,

Do you agree or disagree with the gaming market trends that states table top gaming may be making a come back due to computer games loosing their popularity? Just trying to get some feed back hope its no being missed!

Thanks all the same, cheers

**nyarlathotep667**

I hate to say it, but that's an awful article full of self referencing and congratulatory remarks filled with logical fallacies and with no references or actual news as to why, exactly, board and miniature games were making a "comeback". For example, only a tiny few computer gamers actually stay on the bleeding edge of technology, it simply isn't necessary. And those that do are probably computer geeks anyway. On top of that, it's out of diate (12/20/2005), and since that time I'm pretty sure many more game stores have closed than new ones have opened. Where did that article come from anyway?

**Railguns**

How is making boardgames out of already old, played out video game concepts like Doom fighting "unoriginality" in the industry?

**Asmodai**

Not really. They're too completely different hobbies.

"The decline in model train sales is sure to lead to big gains in the knitting industry." makes about as much sense as the article.

1) Human Interaction - Invalid argument. Wargaming is largely a solo activity (painting, modelling). The games are interactive and face to face.

Of course so is Tekken, and Soul Calibur, and Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance, and Mario Party, and Guitar Hero.

All of them can be played with others in the exact same manner as board games - except without the set-up time and geeky connotations.

"Second reason noted often is the increasing complexity and cost of maintaining a computer "rig" that can keep up with ever-increasing demands of modern Video and PC games."

There's a Playstation of Playstation 2 in most homes with kids in the right age group. Plug it in, hook it up (the wires are color-coded), turn it on. There's no more complexity or cost then hooking up a DVD player.

**Asmodai**

Posted By Railguns on 06/07/2007 10:04 AM
How is making boardgames out of already old, played out video game concepts like Doom fighting "unoriginality" in the industry?

I'm not sure. I was playing games nearly identical to Doom (and its big brother Descent) about 15 years ago.

**Lormax**

In my circle of friends and acquaintances, I haven't noticed any decline in video gaming. Back in my WoW days, I know of a few of my guildmates that were 40k players...and then there were others that I wouldn't ever think would be into wargaming at all. I don't really see the correlation between the two hobbies

**Balzac**

Posted By Asmodai on 06/07/2007 10:12 AM

Posted By Railguns on 06/07/2007 10:04 AM
How is making boardgames out of already old, played out video game concepts like Doom fighting "unoriginality" in the industry?

I'm not sure. I was playing games nearly identical to Doom (and its big brother Descent) about 15 years ago.

That might be because....Doom came out....15 years ago......or so.......

**Asmodai**

Posted By Balzac on 06/07/2007 10:49 AM

Posted By Asmodai on 06/07/2007 10:12 AM

Posted By Railguns on 06/07/2007 10:04 AM
How is making boardgames out of already old, played out video game concepts like Doom fighting "unoriginality" in the industry?

I'm not sure. I was playing games nearly identical to Doom (and its big brother Descent) about 15 years ago.

That might be because....Doom came out....15 years ago......or so.......

Uh no.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/doom.html
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/10640

It was released in 2004.

**Railguns**

My point is, if they want to fight unoriginality in the industry, attempting to make different media versions of the same games doesn't sound like a logical, or even practical move.

A video game has many elements important to the "experience" the game provides that other media will not have, therefore diluting the appeal a cross-media IP usage would create. Gears of War(one of the best examples of a full experience electronic media can provide) is chock full of visual and audial cues in the action that dictate how you feel at a particular moment be it: angry, frightened, psyched up, etc.....like a good thriller movie. If made into a board game to tie people over till GoW 2, it would lack all these things. There would be initial purchases and excitement(maybe..) but soon players would dump it. Not the same, never will be.

Also, you have to consider how a game is constructed. Doom seems a very poor choice to be converted to a table game because the game is a self-contained experience. There is no historical or political backdrop for the action, no character development to speak of, and has no structure to guide an imagination into further scenarios. It is, entirely, you in a space station killing demons. Not that this is a bad thing, as the game set out to be an action/horror fps that delivers the thrills and such distractions as world development would detract from what counts. We realize this when we look at games and call the story things like "an excuse to have the action happen" and "barely enough to give us a reason for whatever to happen". A game that would translate well requires it's own setting and structure so that when you play a boardgame, the game won't seem like that same scenario over and over. Imagination has room to expand wha you do.

Fable, for example, has an entire world (Albion) with its own destinct regions, governing "powers that be" (The Heroes Guild) and plenty of history (the Old Kingdom, etc.) You have a structure that easily allows you to create whatever you want without it feeling unnatural or "organic" to the experience of playing Fable were it to be transported to a board game. Doom, Ninja Gaiden, etc wouldn't translate well, but things like the Panzer Dragoon universe, Star Wars, Firefly, Warhammer, all have their own distinct setting and thus work well in either medium.

**Lordhat**

I REALLY REALLY hope this is a retyped article, and not a a straight copy and paste. If it is the latter, then any credibility is thrown out the window along with the spellchecker he apparently didn't use. Also the fact that he didn't have the article proofread by someone with better grammatical skills than himself, I.E. when to use "their" instead of "there".

The written word is a funny thing. You can have a completely valid point, and be 100% correct; The inability to pay attention to grammar turns an otherwise intriguing and poignant rant into the ravings of a 10 year old.

**nyarlathotep667**

Posted By Lordhat on 06/07/2007 12:43 PM
The written word is a funny thing. You can have a completely valid point, and be 100% correct; The inability to pay attention to grammar turns an otherwise intriguing and poignant rant into the ravings of a 10 year old.

Except in this case the writer of the article doesn't even have a valid point, much less one even remotely correct, AND it's filled with grammatical mistakes.

So where did this article come from again?

**Phoenix**

My friends and I have had a renewed interest in board games in the last few year. Purchases of Civilization, Puerto Rico, and Ticket to Ride are a couple of things that have fueled this. Recent trips to game stores have given us even more to think about (and check up on boardgamegeeks.com) getting. I think the push for us was that we are now living farther apart and have less free time to spend with each other as life drags on. So instead of getting together for all night D&D sessions or the like, a couple of faster board games tend to fit better into our schedule.

I think big corporate involvement will be a double edged sword. On the one hand, there will be more games out there available. The down side is that with more games, there will be more crap out there. So the eventual question is will the big corporate involvement (if any) will serve to enrich the board game selection out there or simply dilute the good games in a sea of worthless junk? Only time will tell.

**Frazzled**

Posted By Asmodai on 06/07/2007 11:03 AM

Posted By Balzac on 06/07/2007 10:49 AM

Posted By Asmodai on 06/07/2007 10:12 AM

Posted By Railguns on 06/07/2007 10:04 AM
How is making boardgames out of already old, played out video game concepts like Doom fighting "unoriginality" in the industry?

I'm not sure. I was playing games nearly identical to Doom (and its big brother Descent) about 15 years ago.

That might be because....Doom came out....15 years ago......or so.......

Uh no.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/doom.html
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/10640

It was released in 2004.

With respect. You are so brilliantly off base its not funny. I was playing doom on a laptop in a Lockheed waiting room back in 1996.

**nyarlathotep667**

Posted By jfrazell on 06/07/2007 2:20 PM

Posted By Asmodai on 06/07/2007 11:03 AM

Posted By Balzac on 06/07/2007 10:49 AM

Posted By Asmodai on 06/07/2007 10:12 AM

Posted By Railguns on 06/07/2007 10:04 AM
How is making boardgames out of already old, played out video game concepts like Doom fighting "unoriginality" in the industry?

I'm not sure. I was playing games nearly identical to Doom (and its big brother Descent) about 15 years ago.

That might be because....Doom came out....15 years ago......or so.......

Uh no.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/doom.html
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/10640

It was released in 2004.
With respect. You are so brilliantly off base its not funny. I was playing doom on a laptop in a Lockheed waiting room back in 1996.

He's talking about the *board* game, not the *video* game.

**Asmodai**

Either that or he's some how managed to transport board games back in time and play them in virtual reality on his laptop. I hear Lockheed is pretty advanced, but I had no idea...

**malfred**

Maybe he just watches the Rock's movie over and over again.

**Kilkrazy**

If you want to show that videogames are replacing boardgames or miniature games, you need serial data about the market size and value so you can compare relative spending. You also need demographical and economic data about age segmentation, size of segments, available leisure time, discretionary income and so on.

Lacking that data I can only use my own experience and trawling the internet.

In my opinion, classic board wargames (Avalon Hill type) have more or less vanished.

Tabletop RPGs (D&D) seem to doing OK judging by the number of systems and ranges of figures available though my gut feeling is they have declined in popularity due to Lineage etc.

Figure gaming (40K, Napoleonics) is doing well. There are more manufacturers and publishers than ever before.

Boardgaming seems to be doing well with a range of popular games such as Settlers of Catan.

We should also mention the various Clix and CCG type of games which have expanded hugely in the past 15 years.

Videogaming also has cycles. In general the market has grown considerably in the past 15 years thanks partly to PlayStation introducing a variety of more accessible, social games (EyeToy, Buzz, SingStar.)

To me, the key difference between computer games and tabletop figure games is pride of ownership. Although you can have great fun with a videogame, in the end it's usually like reading a book. The story is fixed and written by the designer. The artifact is just a box and disc. In comparison, figure games are highly tactile and configurable. You can play all sorts of scenarios from different sources. By painting your own armies, you get emotional investment in them. And so on and so on.

Boardgames fall in between figures and computers. They have the feature of being ready to play without a lot of work, but they inspire less pride of ownership than figures.

**Frazzled**

Posted By Asmodai on 06/07/2007 5:08 PM
Either that or he's some how managed to transport board games back in time and play them in virtual reality on his laptop. I hear Lockheed is pretty advanced, but I had no idea...

My Bad. Nevermind. I must have been "brilliantly off base."

Edit: Doom the boardgame? That sounds truly meh.

Avalon Hill is dead! Long live the King Baby.

**beefHeart**

It's a pretty fair assessment of the market KillKrazy. But I don't think you need all that market data to see that the rise of PC gaming has done a pretty good number on TT Without a doubt Avalon hill type games were directly and completely replaced by PC strategy and resource management games. There is no better example of this then Civilization.

As far as the whole human interaction thing goes... It's BS. There are plenty of PC and console gamers who regularly get together "face-to-face" and engage in honorable combat. There are leagues, tournaments, meet ups, LAN Parties... No shortage of human interaction or lack of good gaming. It's Not unlike the miniature gamer who visits a club on a weekly or monthly basis in any way. The demographic is nearly identical; Old Farts, snotty nosed kids and those in between.

**Asmodai**

Of course this confusion shows another problem with this...

One person says "Let's meet up and play Tekken tonight."

One friend brings a memory card and extra controller.
One friend brings a board game.
One friend brings a CCG deck.
One friend brings a RPG book and character sheet.
One friend brings their collectible miniatures.
One friend brings the DVD trivia game.

**beefHeart**

WipeOut Pure - PSP... bring it on!!!

**stonefox**

Posted By Asmodai on 06/08/2007 6:30 AM
Of course this confusion shows another problem with this...

One person says "Let's meet up and play Tekken tonight."

One friend brings a memory card and extra controller.
One friend brings a board game.
One friend brings a CCG deck.
One friend brings a RPG book and character sheet.
One friend brings their collectible miniatures.
One friend brings the DVD trivia game.

So is this the geek version of the telephone hangup game (2 people are talking on the phone, disconnects, and both choose to either call back or wait) or just a contest for who's geekiest? If it's the latter, it's a tough choice because you didn't include the guy who brought capes, foam swords and wizard hats for everyone.

**Da Boss**

Posted By Asmodai on 06/08/2007 6:30 AM
Of course this confusion shows another problem with this...

One person says "Let's meet up and play Tekken tonight."

One friend brings a memory card and extra controller.
One friend brings a board game.
One friend brings a CCG deck.
One friend brings a RPG book and character sheet.
One friend brings their collectible miniatures.
One friend brings the DVD trivia game.

I can so see this happening, it's gonna be awesome.

**nyarlathotep667**

Posted By jfrazell on 06/08/2007 4:41 AM

Posted By Asmodai on 06/07/2007 5:08 PM
Either that or he's some how managed to transport board games back in time and play them in virtual reality on his laptop. I hear Lockheed is pretty advanced, but I had no idea...

My Bad. Nevermind. I must have been "brilliantly off base."

That or it was the margaritas talkin' or maybe some bad boudin? We know how you throw down in the Bayou City!

**Frazzled**

all of the above baby. All of the above

**Railguns**

There is no such thing as bad boudin, only bad reactions to it.