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I was watching a game today. Player had marines, and had 1 from a squad standing on a hill. He took his Last Man Standing test, failed, and removed him. I asked him about that and he said that is how you play the rule.

I have always seen itf or Marinesdone as follows: Fails test, falls back, on his next turn autorallies if he can, tests again.

I looked in the rulebook and the LMS rule says if you fail, you begin falling back. Nothing else. So does the Marine still get his ATSKNF?

Thanks!

 

As far as I understand it, the marine would still get his ATSKNF.

The only time I can think of where you would immediately remove a unit the moment it started falling back is if you were playing a Meatgrinder mission as the attacker.

Posted By General Hobbs on 06/07/2007 9:41 PM

 I was watching a game today. Player had marines, and had 1 from a squad standing on a hill. He took his Last Man Standing test, failed, and removed him. I asked him about that and he said that is how you play the rule.

I have always seen itf or Marinesdone as follows: Fails test, falls back, on his next turn autorallies if he can, tests again.

I looked in the rulebook and the LMS rule says if you fail, you begin falling back. Nothing else. So does the Marine still get his ATSKNF?

Thanks!

 

The way I read it (p49 BGB) LMS is a Leadership test that is taken by any lone survivor, without any pre-condition imposed.  It precedes any fall-back / regrouping consideration.  If my understanding is right, then ATSKNF does not come into play at all : either the LMS Ld test is passed (therefore no falling back), or it is failed, the lone guy falls back, and if he's still on the table next turn he tries LMS again, first thing in the turn.

If ATSKNF doesn't come into play, then you wouldn't get the LMS the next turn.

Posted By Balzac on 06/08/2007 1:13 AM
If ATSKNF doesn't come into play, then you wouldn't get the LMS the next turn.

No, LMS must take place at the start ot the turn, each turn, therefore before regrouping, which takes place at the start of the movement phase.  If a falling back unit of 1 succeeds its LMS test, then they fight on.

Marine have the "And they shall know no fear" rule which allows then the chance to regroup even if below 50% starting strength.

In a nut shell, if one marine was on his own he is still subject to the last man standing rule and has to roll it each turn. The difference is that he is allowed the chance to rally each turn that he failed the LMS test where most troops that fail the LMS are not able to rally as they are below 50% and therefore will just keep running each turn.

Posted By hellsguardian316 on 06/08/2007 1:39 AM
Marine have the "And they shall know no fear" rule which allows then the chance to regroup even if below 50% starting strength.

In a nut shell, if one marine was on his own he is still subject to the last man standing rule and has to roll it each turn. The difference is that he is allowed the chance to rally each turn that he failed the LMS test where most troops that fail the LMS are not able to rally as they are below 50% and therefore will just keep running each turn.

OK, I'll try to sum up the two situations :

1.  Lone survivor without ATSKNF :

A.  At the start of each turn, Ld test (LMS)

B1.  Passed => he fights on

B2.  Failed => he falls back, does not have the chance to regroup at start of movement phase (due to below 50% exclusion)

Next turn : loop back to A, regardless of B1 or B2 result.

 

2.  Lone survivor with ATSKNF :

A.  At the start of each turn, Ld test (LMS)

B1.  Passed => he fights on

B2.  Failed => he falls back, but regroups automatically at the start of the movement phase, due to ATSKNF

Next turn : loop back to A, regardless of B1 or B2 result.

 

Certainly LMS applies to Marines, but as they automatically regroup, the effect is nullified and they fight on with the special conditions ATSKNF gives them (specifically, they don't fall back because they automatically pass their roll at the start of their Movement Phase and they may then move, fire and fight normally- BGB p. 49 &74). 

LMS says that the model must take a Leadership test in order to heroically fight on (regroup) so, yes Marines must take the test.  The ATSKNF says that they automatically pass tests to regroup even when below 50%.  So far, no conflict...   The only grey area of this I can see is that the LMS calls for a Leadership test, while ATSKNF says that the Marine automatically passes Morale regroup tests. Yes Morale tests are leadership-based tests, but there is a difference in defintions and normal usage.  So where does that leave the interaction of the two rules?  The way I see it is that LMS is a part of the standard ruleset and ATSKNF is an exception to that part of the rules when the Marine unit is below 50% (and LMS falls within this condition).  To say that Marines who fail LMS tests must begin to fall back ignores the ATSKNF special rule they have.  That would be a case of the general rule over-riding the specific exception.

To make a further point, if a model (of any army) passes LMS test, they are considered to have regrouped (for that turn at least).  A regrouped unit/model is not allowed to move further that turn and counts as moving when firing etc, etc.  The ATSKNF rule specifically says that these conditions of regrouping don't apply to units with ATSKNF. 

Additionally, the LMS and regrouping sections are ALL under the Morale section and even the regrouping section (BGB p.49) calls for a Leadership test (not a Morale test as the ATSKNF says on BGB p.74).  So GW has contradicted itself within its own rule.  Specifically and perhaps most revealingly, ATSKNF says they automatically pass Morale tests to regroup, but under the regrouping section no Morale test is ever taken by any unit to regroup- it is a Leadership test (BGB p.49 first para of 'Regrouping').  This just highlights GW's own confusion over Learership/Morale and their use of one term when they should use the other.  Loose rules writing...

So, in my mind, the ATSKNF and LMS have no conflict because it is clear (to me at least) that GW uses Leadership and Morale interchagably in this case.  You can't use RAW because RAW is clearly flawed/contradictory in its writing (as I've explained above) so you have to look at the broader section of what is being talked about in that part of the rules and do your best to come to a (gasp!!!) logical conclusion. 

Posted By MurekZar on 06/08/2007 2:01 AM

2.  Lone survivor with ATSKNF :

A.  At the start of each turn, Ld test (LMS)

B1.  Passed => he fights on

B2.  Failed => he falls back, but regroups automatically at the start of the movement phase, due to ATSKNF

Next turn : loop back to A, regardless of B1 or B2 result.

 

Murek I disagree a bit with your sequence.  A fallback move is made during the movement phase (BGB p.48 second para under 'Fall Back!').  The ATSKNF model automatically passes his regroup test at the start of his Movement Phase (BGB p.74).  By this sequence of priority, the Marine would never have a chance to fall back because he auto-regrouped before the move was ever taken...

But maybe your French version of the BGB has a slightly different meaning/wording than my English one...  We can check on Sunday.

Cheers!

MurekZar, your logic is slightly flawed on just one minut detail

Marines only automatically regroup if...
1. They are above 50% starting strength
2. They are in coherency
3. There are no enemies within 6"

If all the above statements are true then the squad automatically regroups before the begining of the movement. This mean that they can act normally in their turn. I.E. Move, shoot and assualt, or stand still to shoot heavy weapons.

Whereas...
If lets say the marine are below 50%, then they DON'T automatically regroup, they merely get the chance to regroup each turn until they re-group.

Example
1. 10man marine squad gets shot at and 4men die
2. Marines take a morale test as they have taken 25% casulties to shooting
3. Marines fail test and run 8" towards deployment zone
4. Marines are 6men strong(above 50%), in coherency and more than 6" from enemy
5. Marines automatically regroup at end of assualt phase so can act normally in their movement phase on the Marine turn.

6. Enemy then kills 2 more marines
7. Marines take a morale test as they have taken 25% casulties to shooting
8. Marines fail test and run 8" towards deployment zone
9. Marines are 4men strong(below 50%), in coherency and more than 6" from enemy
10. Marines DO NOT automatically regroup, but are allowed to make the test for rally as normal on the marine turn as "And they shall know..." lets you ignore the 50% rule when making tests.
11. If marines fail they fallback again X" and can attempt to rally next marine turn.
12. If marines pass they count as rallied but also count as moved for shooting etc as per normal rally rules.
(lets assume he passed)
13. Enemy then kills 3marines.
14. Marines take a morale test as they have taken 25% casulties to shooting
15. Marines fail test and run 8" towards deployment zone
16. Marines are 1men strong(below 50%), in coherency and more than 6" from enemy
17. Marines DO NOT automatically regroup, but are allowed to make the test for rally as normal on the marine turn as "And they shall know..." lets you ignore the 50% rule when making tests.
18. Solo marine passes test and act as per regroup rules counted as moved

19. Enemy has his turn
20. On next marine turn, the solo marine has to make LMS which he fails
21. Marine runs 8" towards deployment zone (Crikey there LD is awful isn't it!!)
22. Next marine turn marine is allowed to make Ld test to rally
23. Marine passes test.
24. Next marine turn marine has to make LMS test


Sorry for the long winded-ness of this, I just wanted to cover all angles. Hope I covered all angles and explained it clearly.

As a note, bog standard troops do not have ATSKNF rule, which means that once they are below 50% and either fail a morale test or a last man standing test they will run and keep running until they are killed or reach the table edge where they are remove immeadiatly (GW removed the rule that they have one last chance at the table edge)

They are not automatically removed once they fail the LMS, this was removed out of the edition 3 rulebook

 

To answer your question General Hobbs. Yes he does

 

Thank you all for the replies! The guy was so sure and confident he was playing it correctly, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't going nuts.

 

 

Posted By hellsguardian316 on 06/08/2007 4:37 AM

6. Enemy then kills 2 more marines
7. Marines take a morale test as they have taken 25% casulties to shooting
8. Marines fail test and run 8" towards deployment zone
9. Marines are 4men strong(below 50%), in coherency and more than 6" from enemy
10. Marines DO NOT automatically regroup, but are allowed to make the test for rally as normal on the marine turn as "And they shall know..." lets you ignore the 50% rule when making tests.
11. If marines fail they fallback again X" and can attempt to rally next marine turn.

 

Hellsguardian, you also are slightly flawed in your reading of the ATSKNF rule.  I quote from ATSKNF p.74 of BGB- "Space Marines automatically pass Morale tests to regroup, and can take such tests even if the squad has been reduced to less than 50% by casualties, though all other criteria apply." (bold italics were my emphasis) 

So the highlighted part of your post above is incorrect in that while they DO take the test, they automatically pass it as is written in ATSKNF which I just quoted (therefore I am not sure how you are arguing that they do not automatically regroup).  You are correct in that they will fallback (#8 in your list) if they suffer 25% casualties and fail their Morale test, but the next SM turn they automatically regroup (even if <50% but not if enemy are w/in 6in) and can then move, shoot and assault as normal.  The applicable pages are 48-49 and 74 of the BGB. 

Posted By hellsguardian316 on 06/08/2007 4:37 AM

9. Marines are 4men strong(below 50%), in coherency and more than 6" from enemy
10. Marines DO NOT automatically regroup, but are allowed to make the test for rally as normal on the marine turn as "And they shall know..." lets you ignore the 50% rule when making tests.
11. If marines fail they fallback again X" and can attempt to rally next marine turn.
12. If marines pass they count as rallied but also count as moved for shooting etc as per normal rally rules.
(lets assume he passed)

Again here you are slightly mistaken in that when the Marines pass their regroup (which they do automatically assuming no enemy w/in 6in) they may then move shoot and assault as normal.  From ATSKNF I again quote- "Usually troops that regroup may not move normally and always count as moving whether they do or not, but these restrictions do not apply to models with this special rule."  (bold italics are my emphasis)

 

Posted By Beast on 06/08/2007 2:47 AM

Posted By MurekZar on 06/08/2007 2:01 AM

2.  Lone survivor with ATSKNF :

A.  At the start of each turn, Ld test (LMS)

B1.  Passed => he fights on

B2.  Failed => he falls back, but regroups automatically at the start of the movement phase, due to ATSKNF

Next turn : loop back to A, regardless of B1 or B2 result.

 

Murek I disagree a bit with your sequence.  A fallback move is made during the movement phase (BGB p.48 second para under 'Fall Back!').  The ATSKNF model automatically passes his regroup test at the start of his Movement Phase (BGB p.74).  By this sequence of priority, the Marine would never have a chance to fall back because he auto-regrouped before the move was ever taken...

But maybe your French version of the BGB has a slightly different meaning/wording than my English one...  We can check on Sunday.

Cheers!

Hi Beast !

I use the English BGB when posting on English-speaking forums ! ;-)

But you're right, and it's just that I did not manage to write properly what I meant... 

B2  LMS test failed : he would have to fall back, but regroups automatically due to ATSKNF

Better ? :-)

Hi Murek!  Ah I see now what you were trying to say.  No problem, I agree with your point in that case.

 

Cheers!

Beast

Two issues of confusing wording in the rulebook.

1. ATSKNF refers to auto-passing all Morale tests to regroup. The Morale section refers to the test needed to regroup as a ?Leadership test?, as opposed to a Morale test. I think we can all get past this one, as the rule is unplayable if you try to read ATSKNF as not applying to Rally tests.

2. The timing of fallback and rallying. As Beast observed, the rules tell us that a fallback move is made during the movement phase (BGB p.48 second para under 'Fall Back!'). But ATSKNF tells us that the model automatically passes his regroup test at the start of his Movement Phase (BGB p.74). This creates a contradiction- if read literally the Marine would never have a chance to fall back because he auto-regrouped before the move was ever taken...

Despite the bad phrasing of these two rules, I think it?s not too hard to puzzle out how LMS and ATSKNF work. LMS applies to every non-Fearless unit. If the unit fails, it falls back. That?s the rule, and I don?t think the confusion in timing between pages 48 and 74 should be read as preventing it. Even Marines should Fall Back, and they Fall Back during the movement phase.

The only question is whether the Marines should be considered to have Rallied and THEN fallen back, thus counting as Rallied that turn, or whether they cannot Rally that turn because they?re falling back, and will have to wait until next turn to auto-Rally (assuming no enemy unit has cunningly moved within 6? by that point).

Personally I?ve always seen it played as the latter- the consequence of blowing your LMS check is Falling Back that turn, and you?ll have to wait until your next turn to rally again, by which point your opponent may have moved a unit nearby to chase that last SM off the table.

Posted By hellsguardian316 on 06/08/2007 4:37 AM

MurekZar, your logic is slightly flawed on just one minut detail

Marines only automatically regroup if...
1. They are above 50% starting strength
2. They are in coherency
3. There are no enemies within 6"

If all the above statements are true then the squad automatically regroups before the begining of the movement. This mean that they can act normally in their turn. I.E. Move, shoot and assualt, or stand still to shoot heavy weapons.

Whereas...
If lets say the marine are below 50%, then they DON'T automatically regroup, they merely get the chance to regroup each turn until they re-group.

Example
1. 10man marine squad gets shot at and 4men die
2. Marines take a morale test as they have taken 25% casulties to shooting
3. Marines fail test and run 8" towards deployment zone
4. Marines are 6men strong(above 50%), in coherency and more than 6" from enemy
5. Marines automatically regroup at end of assualt phase so can act normally in their movement phase on the Marine turn.

6. Enemy then kills 2 more marines
7. Marines take a morale test as they have taken 25% casulties to shooting
8. Marines fail test and run 8" towards deployment zone
9. Marines are 4men strong(below 50%), in coherency and more than 6" from enemy
10. Marines DO NOT automatically regroup, but are allowed to make the test for rally as normal on the marine turn as "And they shall know..." lets you ignore the 50% rule when making tests.
11. If marines fail they fallback again X" and can attempt to rally next marine turn.
12. If marines pass they count as rallied but also count as moved for shooting etc as per normal rally rules.
(lets assume he passed)
13. Enemy then kills 3marines.
14. Marines take a morale test as they have taken 25% casulties to shooting
15. Marines fail test and run 8" towards deployment zone
16. Marines are 1men strong(below 50%), in coherency and more than 6" from enemy
17. Marines DO NOT automatically regroup, but are allowed to make the test for rally as normal on the marine turn as "And they shall know..." lets you ignore the 50% rule when making tests.
18. Solo marine passes test and act as per regroup rules counted as moved

19. Enemy has his turn
20. On next marine turn, the solo marine has to make LMS which he fails
21. Marine runs 8" towards deployment zone (Crikey there LD is awful isn't it!!)
22. Next marine turn marine is allowed to make Ld test to rally
23. Marine passes test.
24. Next marine turn marine has to make LMS test


Sorry for the long winded-ness of this, I just wanted to cover all angles. Hope I covered all angles and explained it clearly.

As a note, bog standard troops do not have ATSKNF rule, which means that once they are below 50% and either fail a morale test or a last man standing test they will run and keep running until they are killed or reach the table edge where they are remove immeadiatly (GW removed the rule that they have one last chance at the table edge)

They are not automatically removed once they fail the LMS, this was removed out of the edition 3 rulebook

 

To answer your question General Hobbs. Yes he does

OK, my turn, Hellsguardian  !  First of all...  thank you for taking the time to clarify these rules...

On your step 5, I think you are slightly mistaken : regrouping takes place at the start of the movement phase, not at the end of the assault phase.  Not much of a difference, I grant you.

On steps 10 and 17 : see Beast's comment...

Now, step 17 should be the LMS Ld test at the start of the turn, instead of the normal regrouping at the start of the movement phase.

Then I have to point out a hole in the BGB rules (can you believe it ??) : what happens when the LMS test is succesful ?  Is the one-man unit considered as regrouped, with the restriction that this means (cannot move any further except conso, count as moved) ?  Or does it just continue to fight, without restriction ?  By RAW of the LMS textbox it does not count as "regrouped" (there is no reference whatsoever to regrouping), so I would say there is no restriction.  But this seems strange doesn't it ?  What do you say ?

Steps 20, 21 : that's where I disagree : the solo SM takes his LMS, fails, at the start of the turn.  Then, at the start of the movement phase it automatically regroups by application of ATSKNF...  Maybe this was not intended by GW, but looking at the rules, it's RAW !

By the way, thank you, Beast, for pointing out this confusion in the BGB about regrouping test being morale or leadership...

The debate goes on...

edit : sorry Mannahin, I was writing when you posted your item !  Don't think that I ignore it, our posts just crossed...  I    a   m           s      l      o       w       w       w     .       .       .    

Ok guy, have been consulting the BGB hehe

"Beast"
You are right, Marines can move, shoot and assualt as normal even if they have had to rally. It is clear in the ATSKNF universal special rules.

"MurekZar"
* My Step 5 is indeed incorrect, I thought I had edited it to read before the movement phase, so that you do the tests before you physically starting moving models. I'm glad someone took time to read it all hehe

* Step 17 I think is still correct, basically because on step 16 they are still considered to be broken as he failed the morale test. And therefore would need to make a morale test to regroup at the start of the movement phase. If he hadn't of failed he would be already regrouped so he would indeed make a LMS test each turn until failed. Otherwise he would have to make a test to rally then do a last man standing. (Unless this is what you were meaning?)

To Quote the BGB "Space Marines automatically pass Morale tests to regroup, and can take such tests even if the squad has been reduced to less than 50% by casulties.

The bit in bold is what makes me believe that you have to make tests if below 50% only, otherwise you automatically regroup no matter what. To be honest, this section of the rule could do with being described in better detail by GW to clarify it.

Cheers for the info everyone

Hellsguardian: Here's my argument why marines never have to roll the test:

Nom-ATSKNF units: May test to regroup if they are at 50% or more of unit strength. That test involves a random dice roll

ATSKNF units: "can take such tests even if the squad has been reduced to less than 50% by casualties" (quoting your quote of the BGB).

Okay, so they may make a regroup test no matter how many of them there are.

Then, the other half of that tule stats: Space Marines automatically pass Morale tests to regroup" (again, quoting your quote of the BGB).

Essentially, they are allowed to take a test in a situation wher most units can not, but it is a test the always automatically pass, regardless of other situations. I don't see that there is anything in the wording that supports SM units having to actually roll a regroup test if they are under 50%.

I'll throw my dice into this one.
A model with ATSKNF
beginning of turn (phase) roll for LMS
passes, fight one
failed, model falls back

now it's movement phase, model auto re-groups and because of ATSKNF gets to move, shoot and assault as normal.

next turn they get to do it all again.

the key here is that the LMS rolls takes place BEFORE the movement phase. this 'start of turn' phase is when you roll for LMS, regrouping, fall back moves, etc...

gb

Posted By blgarin on 06/09/2007 8:57 PM
I'll throw my dice into this one.
A model with ATSKNF
beginning of turn (phase) roll for LMS
passes, fight one
failed, model falls back

now it's movement phase, model auto re-groups and because of ATSKNF gets to move, shoot and assault as normal.

next turn they get to do it all again.

the key here is that the LMS rolls takes place BEFORE the movement phase. this 'start of turn' phase is when you roll for LMS, regrouping, fall back moves, etc...

gb

The beginning of a turn is also the beginning of the movement phase. There is no 'pre-movement phase' phase.

Posted By yakface on 06/09/2007 10:42 PM
The beginning of a turn is also the beginning of the movement phase. There is no 'pre-movement phase' phase.

Not to flog a dead horse too much, but I agree with yak.  Rolling for something "at the start of the turn" is exactly that same in game mechanics as rolling for something "at the start of the Movement Phase".   Until GW defines some sort of new pre-turn phase that takes place before the Movement Phase, RAW supports only this stance.

If you don't accept this as fact then the interaction of LMS and ATSKNF will certainly be slightly different.  But in that case you are not following RAW and will therefore open a whole can of ugly wiggly worms.

For the last 5years I've read it as being a Marine auto regroups if over 50%, can test for regroup if under 50%.

Now I hear I've been a lemon for the last 5years and playing the rule wrong hehe.

So basically, it doesn't matter what status the squad is in, they can still auto regroup provided they are in coherency and more than 6" away from an enemy??? The 50% bit is completely ignored for this test for marines???

(obviously LMS tests still have to be done every turn for solo models)

Interesting question - Can a model in a unit of 1 be considered to be in coherency?

If he is within 2" of himself, then yes he is in coherency. 

well, technically if a lascannon shot him and split him in half and the two halfs were less than 2" apart then yes, he would be in coherency with himself.

Granted he would be dead, but still in coherency, hehe

Doesnt it say in the Marine dex that after a LMS, the marines always regroup to assess the situation? Meaning, when you fail a LMS, you fallback, and you rally on the same turn.

As far as i can tell that only applies to the LMS, not the general ATSKNF

"Space Marines are still subject to Last Man Standing tests. They will always regroup after each Fall Back move to 'reasses' the situation however," doesn't change the basic rules of ATSKNF, as it doesn't say imidiatly after falling back, the begining of the next movement phase is still after the Fall Back move.

Actually, by your very wording, it does imply that they ignore ALL restrictions, so being within 6" of enemy and those things do not apply.

It's a one sentence piece of fluff. Trying to play it as overriding the restrictions within the ATSKNF rule proper is not going to win you any friends.