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Alright, I really kind of hate being indecisive but this is where I'm at. I'm going to the Baltimore GamesDay RT and I'm bringing my Marines.  I have two builds, SAFH Marines that even makes my stomach blanche or my friendly fluffy and pretty fun to play (though no where near as competitive) Mechanized Ultramarines.

The SAFH I really only bring out to play against friends where we say "bring the tournament armies".  It's done games against WWP DE, Mech Sisters, Mech Tau, Mech Eldar, and Godzilla (with Zilla being the toughest one of all to face IMO).  Here's the list:

Yeah, it's not all that fun to play against and unless it's going to be a terrain filled table, the games aren't tense or fun against other power armies (though admittedly I've had tough games against Mech Eldar and Zilla that were fun for what they were - two power armies hitting eachother).

On one hand, if terrain is lacking at the event, this army will rock even more than usual (and I'm sure, win me ZERO friends in the process).  I try to be a nice guy and people who've played me here (not a lot who post) can attest that I like to make my opponent laugh during the game and make it a fun time, but this list is NOT fun to play against if you're running something like....

Now this on the other hand is a fluffy list and looks a LOT better on the table top with a lot of variety and things really fit together better as the army was built to the fluff (I have squad markings down, sarges for each one done up a bit different to stand out a bit, etc).  It's themed, it's actually fun to play (if there's terrain), but yeah if there's no terrain and Zilla comes a knocking, I don't see this doing well, at all. 

Normally I don't care about comp very much, but I know that power gaming armies don't make for very fun games against non power gaming armies or even in general unless you're taking something specific on that can take it and dish it back out. 

On one hand some of the most challenging games I've played have been the SAFH vs. Mech Eldar & Zilla, on the other hand the most fun and rewarding games I've played were my Mech stuff against similarly built lists.

So I'm not sure if I want to be "that guy" who pisses people off at the tournament, but on the other hand I've taken fluffy army's out before and came accross the cheese that rightfully whipped all ass and it's enough to make me bitter and bring out the full cheddar list to show just how nasty we can do things...but do I want to be the guy who does that to some one else?

Grah, I feel like a panzee, guess this is what it must feel like to be an Eldar player. >

Hahaha, your SAFH isn't really a SAFH..... it's no where close... so I have two suggestions.... either get a real SAFH.... or play the army that you actually enjoy playing.... but bringing that SAFH will just leave you thinking "I thought this was my good list" after you've lost all three games.

I think it more depends on what your goal is, and how scoring is done. Do you want to have a better chance at winning battles or making friends and showing off a nice looking army? 

Heck, you said the shooty army is the one you bring out for tournaments and such...isn't that what a Gamesday RT is?

I say use the SAFH, who knows when they will outlaw the 6 man las/plas??


BTW, what does SAFH stand for?

Wow, I thought you were talking about which girl to marry, not which army to take. Do you really want my answer?

If so, then I say the fun-fluffy army. If you don't want my answer, TOO LATE! hahaha

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By Angron on 06/11/2007 7:59 PM
Hahaha, your SAFH isn't really a SAFH..... it's no where close... so I have two suggestions.... either get a real SAFH.... or play the army that you actually enjoy playing.... but bringing that SAFH will just leave you thinking "I thought this was my good list" after you've lost all three games.

You're trying to tell me that it's not a SAFH (shooty army from hell)? 

As far as not being a good list, it's beaten Mech Eldar, Zilla, Mech Tau and most things I've come across.  I've lost too, but this list has done me well playing against the toughest people I've found locally.

Sure there are a few things I can change for variety, taking two of the five man squads and putting them into a 8 Man 4ML dev squad isn't a bad idea, something I may consider going for - but it's still going to be a PITA of a list to play against for a lot of armies.  So if this isn't a SAFH, what exactly would you consider?

That's pretty shooty for 1500 points. I'm really not sure what you could do to increase the firepower output of that at this level. You could add a devestator squad, but their weapons are more expensive than they are in tactical squads, so your point efficiency would actually drop.

I'm curious to see what would be a stronger SAFH marine army at 1500 points, too.

Sal.

Actually, I take my back my previous statement.... after running numbers, you have a very solid marine killing army.... just hope you don't run up against any horde armies, heh.

I actually think that replacing the two 5 man las/plas squads with the 8 Man/4ML dev squad is pretty good, though I do go down a scoring unit I go up in fire power at least against Zilla and Mech Eldar, especially at range. So this list would be:

Reclusiarch - 107 Points
Jump pack, Bolt Pistol, Frags

5 Terminators, 2 Assault Cannons - 240
5 Terminators, 2 Assault Cannons - 240

6 Marines, Las/Plas - 115
6 Marines, Las/Plas - 115
6 Marines, Las/Plas - 115

8 Assault Marines, PF Sarge - 206
1 Landspeeder Tornado - 80
1 Landspeeder Tornado - 80

8 Devs, 4 Missile Launchers - 200

That would be so boring to both play and play against. You just set up your guys and start rolling dice.

Go with the second option.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By Ozymandias on 06/12/2007 4:19 PM
That would be so boring to both play and play against. You just set up your guys and start rolling dice.

Go with the second option.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

If you think it's that easy, you haven't played against Mech Eldar, Tau, or Zilla Nids in a mission other than seek and destroy.

I'm leaning towards the SAFH because I know a few people are taking the tough lists and if the tables are as sparse as they were last year, the mech list will suffer and this list will do well.  According to the guys who've done this for a while, the tables and terrain have been the same at the Baltimore GD for 3 years, and last year the tournament tables were SPARSE.  If I took the mech list anything built decently (that I actually know is showing up) will cripple it in turn 1 due to the lack of hiding spots.

Not sure which I would rather face with the list I was planning on bringing. I guess the mechanized list because when the SAFH termies take out my Land Raider, I will suffer from depression. Although 2 rounds of those SAFH tac squads will hurt also. I agree with the guy who recommended bringing the list YOU would have the most fun playing. It is only 3 games, it will be over before you know it. Honestly, who cares how many games you win in a GD. It's the GTT that really matters competitively. JMHO!

Chaplain w/ termie armor, combi-melta
Termie Command 1x4 w/ assault cannon
Land Raider w/ searchlight

Tac 2x5 w/ heavy bolter
Razorback w/ heavy bolter, searchlight

Tac 2x5 w/ flamer
Razorback w/ heavy bolter, searchlight

Pred Annihilator w/ lascannon sponsons, searchlight
Pred Annihilator w/ lascannon sponsons, searchlight

LS Typhoon w/ heavy bolter

SAFH.

If you're going for max battle points and the win, by all means use the SAFH build. Actually, there's theme, lots of troops, and if you paint/convert well - then no one should have any complaints right? lol. I mean, there's always going to be folks who find any build over the top. Don't build your list to appease them as those folks will always complain and find something over the top. And then there will be those who want to play against a great player with a great list. Either way if you're a friendly dude/chic you'll make an enjoyable game. Don't worry about what the opposition thinks at an RTT, make friends at local events and LGS but aim for at least one of the prizes at major events (whether it is overall, general, sportsman, or painting).

...maybe those who vote for the soft list are secretly hoping to whup you there and are attempting to powergame the metagame prior to you showing up...jk.

Go power build, no question.

I honestly dont think that army is that cheecey, expecially the second build with the dev squad (which is the better build in my opinion).

If you did this but took a libby instead of a chappy, then i think people would scream cheese.

But its a tournament and if you bring your fluffy list and get your butt handed to you by serious lists all day you will be mad at yourself for not palying to win. If you bring the tough list and make it to the top tables but score not as high due to someone knocking your comp score, i think you would actually enjoy the games more while you were playing.

But either way, good luck with it.

Take the SAFH list.  I will be honest I know why you have the termies but thats alot of points for 4 assault cannons, you could get 3 full las preds and another tornado ( or 3 8man 4 rocket dev squads) for the cost of them and still have a couple points left over.which is better 4 assault cannons or 12 rockets im not sure, I want to say the rockets, but I have a sinking feeling that would be wrong.

Tournies are for winning not playing fluff. This however doesn't mean you need to be a douchbag, the list never makes the player the player always makes the player. Basicly playing at tournies is like doing business, be friendly, talk a good talk, and sell them on your product ( ie, you). If your friendly, talk and laugh, and distract them from the fact they are getting slaughtered buy a wheel of chedder, they won't care. In this case you won't lose comp normally since they remember you as a friend, and likeable, not the ass hat who figured out how to squeeze 10 plasma and 30 las cannon into 1500 points.

Bring crackers, and offer them to the guys you face, tell them its to go with the cheese, and look sheepish. Also always bring the guys you face a drink, be it water, soda, beer( well if your playing at some place that allows it and the guy isn't under age....by much) and snacks. Like I said just be nice and friendly. The more relaxed the guys you face are the less they will care about comp.

Another thing to remember is to not argue rules. let the other guy have the extra 1/2 inch he took by accident, Give the other guy the better cover save, If shooting at a tank and your not sure if its front or side armor just shoot the front ( this bevavior will normally be returned in kind). You for the most part will be playing the better list. Now there is a slight clause to this rule, if your facing someone else with a balls to the wall list ( ie nidzilla, mech eldar, tau, asscannon spam, any other list that should require crackers to be brought along) don't give away the farm. 1/2 inch is fine but at the start make sure what cover gives what, ect ect ect, play hard but fair. Guys playing these kind of list will want the harder game and won't mess with your comp at all.

The only pit fall you might run across with this is a young kid ( 12 or 13 maybe even 14) they still have that childhood honesty thing going on still. They won't see you being nice in the normal way an adult would since most adults are nice to kids. Same thing goes for soda and snacks, adults are the providers for kids its nothing odd. This leads to kids dinging your comp because basicly, your product (ie you) isn't kid friendly. they think with there heart not with their head, and kids feelings get hurt a little easier than adults ( normally). Basicly the best thing you can do when faceing kids is try and make it fun, MAKE the game a close one ( ie let the kid kill a few marines , let him feel like he could of pulled it off with one more turn) Don't throw the baby out with the bath water, but no need to kill him to a man by turn 2 either.

All in all your list looks solid the SAFH one that is and should do rather well

My only point is that the SAFH doesn't look fun to play with, let alone against. Literally, you set up your guys and roll dice. At least Mech Eldar/Tau require you as a player to actually do something. I agree that Nidzilla might be even less fun to play with.

Maybe that's what's wrong with the whole tournament atmosphere. Games like that just don't seem like much fun.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Wherever comp scoring is involved you face a dilema: To be competitive yet still pass judgement in your opponent's eyes.

I say go ahead with the first army as there will be plenty of people brining hard lists to the event anyways. I hope it's painted extrmely well too as it is damn near required if you want the overall. The points that a master painted army afford you are too big to ignore.

Perhaps offering to buy them a beer before the game would help too....(lol)

Lazarus.

Important legal question: Do they allow beer at the tables at Baltimore?

Take the SAFH, and keep it more or less as it is. the termies aren't just ACs, they're also mobile fire, as well as a middling to fair counter assault unit. Predators will simply be the target of everything S7 and above all game. Finally, is there a unit more overrated than the 8man, 4 ML devastator squad? I've trotted mine out probably a dozen times, and I'm not sure it ever accomplishes anything. Obviously that's a tactics question, but if anybody wants to discuss devastators in Tactics I'm curious to see what I'm missing.

I go back and forth between that and the 2 5 Man Las/Plas squads. The 8 Man Devs bring a little bit to the table that I do like:

1.) 4 Dedicated 48" Shots. These can be used to great effect vs Skimmers and other things requiring that kind of firepower (Dakka Fex's spring to mind immediately).

2.) A bit more casualties to soak up wounds than a Las/Plas squad, though it's 1 target instead of 2.

Is the AP2 more worthwhile to make me go back to the 5 Man squads for Tacs? I'm not so sure.

On the other hand, it's a good chunk of VP's to hand over and a target for squads since it's harder to wipe out on the charge by say, 6 Harlies or Ravenors, I'm tempted to go back to the 5 man squads.

Thou I voted for the foot slogging army. I would have to say thou that you might do better with the 2nd list. Being that you would be mobile and that is something you need in RTT/GT. I myself know that a foot slogging army works, Hell I have been running my list for years and it has not lost a game. Thou I do not min/max units, just a ton of power armour gets the job done for me. Foot slogging army is more of a long turn game and in RTT/GT you need to be moving asap. You never know when your opp will run the chat/talk up a storm tactic to buy himself a draw. Now that is some ;ljk cheese bastage.  Hell, Judges could come around and inform you that this is the last turn. You will need that mobility do get stuff done if that is the case.

 

Best of luck to your call, I know the foot slogging works. Just that you might need some speed on your side.

Really?

Maybe its just personal experiance, but mine is a mainstay of my army. My 8 man 4 ML dev squad is an all star in nearly every game. I take that, and two or three las plas squads and the combo gives me a really good mix of range, anti tank and Ap2. I wouldnt change mine out of the list for anything, but that's just me.

What targets do you generally shoot at with your Devs? I guess I don't fight enough Godzilla to take advantage of the two wounds a turn they'd put on a Dakkafex. I'm not too impressed by the two MEQ's a turn they'll drop, and against light vehicles I'd rather pay a little more and get two tank hunting ACs in a terminator squad. I guess averaging almost a glance a turn against AV13 is nice, as is the ability to tag AV14.

I've consistently gotten more bang for my buck from predators (esp. 110pts Annihilators) and even razorbacks to be too impressed by my Devs. Heavy Bolter Devs are a little cheaper, but amazingly good at what they're good at (killing GEQs).

I hear what you are saying, and I agree to an extent. But this is why i like the Dev squad.

1.) Infantry are inherently more survivable than tanks. MEQ's in hard cover can take a lot of punishment and keep firing all game. One glancing hit and the tank isnt firing, meaning no return on its investment. One enemy las plas squad can glanc ea tank, then the next can move onto another target. A dev squad would soak up a lot of enemy units firepower and keep firing back.

2.) 48" range covers a lot of board, much more so than the 30" effective range of the termies (of which i always take one unit as well). While the tank hunting termies are statistically a better bet vs most armored targets, it won't mean much if you arent in range. Deep striking mitigates that, but then you sacrifice turns of shooting for flexibility, thereby further reducing the time you have to get a return on your investment.

3.) They are good against light and heavy infantry, plus they pop medium vehicles with easy, and with some luck, can take out heavier targets. Against skimmers, the probablility of a glance is very high and gives me my best long range option for taking them out.

4.) as has been said, they are great vs dakka fexes, Wraithlords, Great Deamons, etc.

I guess the short answer is their durability and flexibility.

But like i said, that is just personal experiance. For some people they may not be worth a damn.

I hear what you are saying, and I agree to an extent. But this is why i like the Dev squad.

1.) Infantry are inherently more survivable than tanks. MEQ's in hard cover can take a lot of punishment and keep firing all game. One glancing hit and the tank isnt firing, meaning no return on its investment. One enemy las plas squad can glanc ea tank, then the next can move onto another target. A dev squad would soak up a lot of enemy units firepower and keep firing back.

2.) 48" range covers a lot of board, much more so than the 30" effective range of the termies (of which i always take one unit as well). While the tank hunting termies are statistically a better bet vs most armored targets, it won't mean much if you arent in range. Deep striking mitigates that, but then you sacrifice turns of shooting for flexibility, thereby further reducing the time you have to get a return on your investment.

3.) They are good against light and heavy infantry, plus they pop medium vehicles with easy, and with some luck, can take out heavier targets. Against skimmers, the probablility of a glance is very high and gives me my best long range option for taking them out.

4.) as has been said, they are great vs dakka fexes, Wraithlords, Great Deamons, etc.

I guess the short answer is their durability and flexibility.

But like i said, that is just personal experiance. For some people they may not be worth a damn.

sorry, double post.

All right, I see your points. I favor predators because I like the move and shoot aspect, and I usually load up on 4 las/plas squads. If you take two terminator squads, suddenly every lascannon is pointed at them and not your "harmless" Annihilators.

To be fair, my Missile Devs survive nearly every game, certainly against shooting. Stuck in 4+ cover, not much is dislodging them.

I guess I don't face enough Dakkafexes or wraithlords to be worthwhile. In my meta-game, I can afford to buy more specialized stuff. In terms of being able to deal with anything the enemy brings while surviving the game, not much beats them though.

I vote for the tough guy army.

1) Unless the tournament features objectives that are determined midway through the game, your games will be won and lost in the deployment phase. If the tournament will have objectives determined in turn three or afterwards, you'll want the more flexible "fluffy" army.

2) Other players will be bringing their best. You should, too. Even if you bring the other army there will always be shouts of cheese (you can't please everyone all the time).

3) It sounds like the SAFH is the army you're most experienced with against a variety of armies. Stick with it.

4) Friendly list for friendly games. Don't confuse a good sportsman with a friendly gamer.

Good luck.

hey man, been a while...imo instead of taking 1 8 man dev squad, take two 5 man dev squads with 2 mls in each (your going to have to drop the 2 6 man las/plasma squads instead of droping the 2 5 man squads though).
I say this because of its better for the following reasons.
1) vs tanks 2 mls is better then 1 las and a plas, also long range 2 mls are better because the plasma gun is only effective close and if they are close that can be bad news for your shooty squads.
3) if you split the devs up you get the same amnount of scoring units as before, and fire power accept in 2 targets which means people are less likely to concentrate their fire vs 2 small dev squads because they pretty much look the same as the las/plasma squads where as if you take one *big* 8 man squad with 4 mls thats just screaming kill me first.

Hope this helps, good luck and ill be looking foward to seeing you there

Good thing they try not to match you vs people you know (which means we dont have to play justians zilla nids from hell)