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2007/06/17 14:58:30
Subject: Help with a tournament checklist!
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Hello! I am planning on running a Hall of Heroes tournament for 40k in the near future. To best suit the wants of the local gaming populace, I’ve conducted a survey so that I can tailor how the event is run. When it came down to “how do you want composition scored,” I gave the choices of no comp, done by your opponent, or have a checklist provided in advance. The overwhelming majority voted for the checklist, so a checklist I will provide. I was hoping the good folks at Dakka would help me by critiquing my rudimentary checklist and help me in refining it into something as fair and fun as possible. Essentially, I’m going to steal an idea from the Canadian Astronomicon tournaments – you start with full comp scores but get penalized every time you don’t follow the checklist. As of now, I think every penalty will be weighed equally. <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--><!--[endif]-->The tournament will be 1000pts. <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--><!--[endif]--> Tournament criteria: <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> No more then 200pts spent in HQ. Must have at least 30% Troops. No more then 2 Elite choices. No more then 2 Fast Attack choices. No more then 2 Heavy Support choices. <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> So what d’yall think? Too tight/loose? Too vague? What’s the most badass list that you can design under these restrictions? Any armies get screwed over in particular? <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> Keep in mind, a player can freely choose to take more then, say, 2 Heavy Support choices, they will simply lose a bit of comp once (the players will be scored once for comp before hand, not every round.) Comments welcome!
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2007/06/17 15:41:28
Subject: RE: Help with a tournament checklist!
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander
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What is a Hall of Heroes Tournament?
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.Only a fool believes there is such a thing as price gouging. Things have value determined by the creator or merchant. If you don't agree with that value, you are free not to purchase. |
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2007/06/17 15:59:19
Subject: RE: Help with a tournament checklist!
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Canada has a national league going on from June to May. Essentially, every tournament you play in gets you league points. Going to major tournaments (determined by the company,) will earn you bonus points. Winning awards (Overall, Best General, Best Painted...etc) will earn you bonus points as well.
Last year, the overall winners of each game system got a free battleforce and armybook. The overall league winner got a new army ($400 of free product.)
Last year, the top 25(?) league players were invited to play at the Grand Tournament. Conflict winners and regional winners were also invited. The Grand Tournament was invite only.
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2007/06/17 16:53:54
Subject: RE: Help with a tournament checklist!
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Regular Dakkanaut
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No more than 200 points in HQ screws IG badly.
But, then again, a checklist is a generality, and so that goes....
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2007/06/17 19:53:28
Subject: RE: Help with a tournament checklist!
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Fixture of Dakka
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No more than 200 points in HQ screws IG badly.
But, then again, a checklist is a generality, and so that goes.... Ummm....only if you choose to take your army in that direction, by attaching heavy weapons/sentinels/etc. to your HQ. If you're looking to preserve comp, you can do still do so (take those same options in other places on the org chart). Heck, you can go fully mechanized and still come in under 200 pts in HQ, easily. The point, however, is valid. Checklists tend to vary in usefulness across different armies, and heavily favor armies who can fit a lot of utility in their Troops slots. Marines have great Troops, who can be configured to do a number of different tasks, and well. Tau (for example) tend to need their other slots to fill in the specialist roles. The real question is how much is your comp score going to be worth, percentage-wise, of your overall score? Can I choose (for effectiveness) to give up a few comp points, and hope to recover them in the Battle section?
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Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? |
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2007/06/18 00:18:33
Subject: RE: Help with a tournament checklist!
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[DCM]
Sentient OverBear
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One idea (and granted, this would be a lot more work) would be to have a checklist for each army type, thus not screwing or benefiting any particular army. Like I said, a lot of work, but it'd be worthwhile.
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DQ:70S++G+++M+B++I+Pw40k94+ID+++A++/sWD178R+++T(I)DM+++
Trust me, no matter what damage they have the potential to do, single-shot weapons always flatter to deceive in 40k. Rule #1 - BBAP
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2007/06/18 01:45:47
Subject: RE: Help with a tournament checklist!
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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My checklist system is in the thread below.
Mine is designed for 1500, and with the underlying concepts that I don?t want it to have too heavy an impact on the overall results, and that I don?t think comp checklists are particularly effective in determining an army?s POWER, but can be a nice way to encourage variety. That said, for 1000pts I think I?d start penalizing/withholding points at two duplicate HS, FA, or Elite choice, as opposed to three as I have it for mine.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/13/postid/153188/view/topic/tpage/1/Default.aspx
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Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.
Maelstrom's Edge! |
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2007/06/18 02:00:50
Subject: RE: Help with a tournament checklist!
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Posted By Janthkin on 06/18/2007 12:53 AM Ummm....only if you choose to take your army in that direction, by attaching heavy weapons/sentinels/etc. to your HQ. If you're looking to preserve comp, you can do still do so (take those same options in other places on the org chart). Heck, you can go fully mechanized and still come in under 200 pts in HQ, easily. True. The HQ slot has just become the easy spot to stash the heavy weapons teams when taking doctrines. And, really, it's the only place to put them with out stealing the slot that would normally go to a russ or basilisk.
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2007/06/18 02:14:49
Subject: RE: Help with a tournament checklist!
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests
Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.
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Forcing 30% in troops is probably going one step to far. Limiting the other choices, that's fine - don't want any 3 Falcon armies at 1000 - but some armies struggle with putting points in troops. Lose that and the rest is fine. And as far as having 'only' 200 points in HQ being crippling for Guard, well, WTF? Guard players don't need more than 81 points for HQ. JO (40), Honorifica (25), Iron Discipline (5) and a Standard Bearer (11). That's it. BYE
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2007/06/18 02:31:06
Subject: RE: Help with a tournament checklist!
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Posted By H.B.M.C. on 06/18/2007 7:14 AM Forcing 30% in troops is probably going one step to far. Limiting the other choices, that's fine - don't want any 3 Falcon armies at 1000 - but some armies struggle with putting points in troops. Lose that and the rest is fine. And as far as having 'only' 200 points in HQ being crippling for Guard, well, WTF? Guard players don't need more than 81 points for HQ. JO (40), Honorifica (25), Iron Discipline (5) and a Standard Bearer (11). That's it. BYE I never said it crippled guard, I said it screwed guard. You can absolutely have a very effective HQ designed to provide a solid leadership bubble for under 100 points, just as you have described. But, as I mentioned above, to fit under 200 points, you have to pass on attaching heavy weapon support squads to the HQ, and instead put them in a slot that would normally be taken by a tank. You can probably still fit in a couple of classic deep-striking special wepaons demo charge suicide hilarity teams, if you don't give them much else for gear, though. When any other army (well, other than Tau...) spends 500+ points on HQ, it's for 5-10 CC badasses. When guard does it, it's for 30+ guardsman that are praying to the emporer that they never end up in CC. But, at only 1000 points (which I missed--reading comprehension ftw!), it's not much of an issue.
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2007/06/18 04:33:55
Subject: RE: Help with a tournament checklist!
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Fixture of Dakka
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But, at only 1000 points (which I missed--reading comprehension ftw!), it's not much of an issue. Yeah, I missed that part, too. If you wanted to get a little more draconian with it, instead of having a comp checklist, you could just use a different Force Org chart. Something like Adepticon's Team Tourney org chart: 1 HQ0-1 Elites 1-3 Troops 0-1 Fast Attack 0-1 Heavy Support 0-1 "Your choice" slot (Either one more Elite, FA, OR Heavy Support slot) No comp points (and no impact on the overall score as a result), but a complete bar to a lot of the silliness that comes from multiple slots at 1000 pts.
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Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? |
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2007/06/18 05:48:21
Subject: RE: Help with a tournament checklist!
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Uhlan
Deep in the heart of the Kerensky Cluster
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The tournament will be 1000pts. <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--><!--[endif]--> Tournament criteria: <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> No more then 200pts spent in HQ. Must have at least 30% Troops. No more then 2 Elite choices. No more then 2 Fast Attack choices. No more then 2 Heavy Support choices. <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]-->
Templars may have a hard time with the HQ limit as well... I Know I would. At 1000pts the rest seems pretty good but I would have to see how the penalties would work.
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2007/06/18 08:30:31
Subject: RE: Help with a tournament checklist!
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Regular Dakkanaut
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To Janthkin: I asked what ratio of hard scores to soft scores do the players want - most of them voted for 60/40 (hard/soft,) though if I "average" the ratios it comes to 70/30. I plan on doing staff judging for painting, checklist for comp, and spotsmanship done by your opponent (this will hopefully minimize the amount chipmunking.) If I go with the 70/30, this means comp will be worth about 10%. I REALLY like your alternate Force Organiztion chart. I might dump comp altogether and go with that. I'll talk to my staff and see what they think. What's the nastiest army you can build in those restrictions? To Iorek: Yeah, specific checklists would be cool but alot of work, and arguably biased by what I think is "fair" for each army (I like all the armies but I have a soft spot for Chaos.) It's something I can do for the future (when I have more time to playtest,) and even divide and delegate to my staff. To Mannaheim: Did I read your checklist correctly? Say if I have one Elite unit - Q8 - I have 1 Elite unit, score 3 points, Q9 - I don't have 2 Elite unts, I lost 3 points? Other then that, I agree that identical units are boring, but I don't feel it can be too abused at 1000pts. To HBMC: I think 300pts isn't too unreasonable for most armies. Originally I thought about 3+ Troops choices, but that tends to screw Necrons (680pts for Lord w/ Res orb and 30 Warriors...320 points for Immortals or Destroyers...yaayyy...) What army do you think would struggle to hit 300pts Troops yet stay competitive? Thanks for the input so far! Keep'em coming!
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2007/06/18 08:30:36
Subject: RE: Help with a tournament checklist!
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Good for lists with strong troop choices. Not good for other lists.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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2007/06/18 08:42:24
Subject: RE: Help with a tournament checklist!
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I dunno...How are the various things weighted? If each check is worth the same number of points, I don't see it as too bad of a thing.
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2007/06/18 08:55:24
Subject: RE: Help with a tournament checklist!
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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Posted By Clarence on 06/18/2007 1:30 PM To Janthkin: I REALLY like your alternate Force Organiztion chart. I might dump comp altogether and go with that. I'll talk to my staff and see what they think. I think this may actuallly be the better way to go. It works quite well at the Adepticon Team Tourney. Posted By Clarence on 06/18/2007 1:30 PM To Mannaheim: Did I read your checklist correctly? Say if I have one Elite unit - Q8 - I have 1 Elite unit, score 3 points, Q9 - I don't have 2 Elite unts, I lost 3 points? My checklist (and remember that it's for 1500) gives you 2 points for having either 0 or 1 Elite choice, 4 points for having two or more Elites with no more than two duplicate choices (say, two Preds, or two Preds and a Dread in Chaos), and 0 points if you have three duplicate Elites. Same for each of HS and FA. And remember that there's a general 2 point award for not having more than two units with the exact same upgrades. So having three Falcons with all the same upgrades, for example, would cost you a total of 6 pts on comp. Posted By Clarence on 06/18/2007 1:30 PM To HBMC: I think 300pts isn't too unreasonale for most armies. Originally I though about 3+ Troops choices, but that tends to screw Necrons (680pts for Lord w/ Res orb and 30 Warriors...320 points for Immortals or Destroyers...yaayyy...) What army do you think would struggle to hit 300pts Troops yet stay competitive? I agree that the 30% guideline is a bit more flexible at this points level.
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Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.
Maelstrom's Edge! |
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2007/06/18 09:59:44
Subject: RE: Help with a tournament checklist!
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Fixture of Dakka
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To Janthkin: I asked what ratio of hard scores to soft scores do the players want - most of them voted for 60/40 (hard/soft,) though if I "average" the ratios it comes to 70/30. I plan on doing staff judging for painting, checklist for comp, and spotsmanship done by your opponent (this will hopefully minimize the amount chipmunking.) If I go with the 70/30, this means comp will be scored out of about 10%. The nice thing about using an alternate org chart? 20% of your score is painting, 20% of your score is sportsmanship, 60% is pure battle, and you STILL have a means of enforcing some comp constraints (it's just pass/fail, if the list is legal or not). Requires being very clear with your players, though. I REALLY like your alternate Force Organiztion chart. I might dump comp altogether and go with that. I'll talk to my staff and see what they think.
What's the nastiest army you can build in those restrictions? Credit where it's due - that's the Adepticon team tourney org chart. (There, however, you would always be paired with one of your partners, who has 1000 pts of army following the same chart.) Viewed another way, it's similar to WHFB, where the org chart actually *gasp* changes with point levels. Lessee: -Max of 2 uber-falcons (but then only 1 Elite slot for harlies/dragons/scorpions) -Max of 4 Tyranid Monstrous Creatures (still nasty at 1k pts, but could be much worse) -Essentially negates Iron Warriors (2 heavy tanks, 3 Oblits OR 6 Oblits, 1 heavy tank) -Cuts back on assault cannon spam (though marines can still fit 3 termie squads & a speeder squadron, if they want) -Crimps daemonbombs a bit (actually the limitation on Troops does that) Did I miss any hyper-nasty lists?
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Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? |
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2007/06/18 10:36:32
Subject: RE: Help with a tournament checklist!
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Tunneling Trygon
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hey Clarence, you mentioned Astronomicon's comp system, why not use it? Works well at 1500, don't see why it wouldn't work for 1000.
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snoogums: "Just because something is not relavant doesn't mean it goes away completely."
Iorek: "Snoogums, you're right. Your arguments are irrelevant, and they sure as heck aren't going away." |
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2007/06/18 12:20:08
Subject: RE: Help with a tournament checklist!
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests
Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.
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I guess 30% isn't so bad at 1000 points. I was thinking more of a standard 1850 tournament list, where 30% is 555 points. BYE
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2007/06/18 17:03:16
Subject: RE: Help with a tournament checklist!
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Regular Dakkanaut
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To jfrazzel: I think most people are in agreement that most armies can hit the 300pt Troop mark and stay fairly competitive (for this level of gaming.) If you can think of an army that gets screwed I'd like to hear it. I'm really feeling the alternate Force Org, with a slight adjustment to Troops. 1 HQ 0-1 Elites 2-3 Troops 0-1 Fast Attack 0-1 Heavy Support 0-1 "Your choice" slot (Either one more Elite, FA, OR Heavy Support slot) With Janthkin's advice, the scoring can easily be divided in to 60% gaming, 20% sports, and 20% painting, with comp essentially being pass or fail. I changed the Troops 'cause I don't like the idea of someone taking 1 minimal Troop choice and plumping everthing else into the other categories. To Winterman: I like Astro's system in principal, but it is a little convoluted and more complex than I would like to do for my first tournament. In time, if we develop a strong fanbase, we can try them out. I'm guessing that since the Emperor's Champ doesn't take up an HQ slot, Black Templars can still field him and another HQ under this format, correct? Thanks everyone for your support! Clarence
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2007/06/18 23:07:03
Subject: RE: Help with a tournament checklist!
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Why 2-3 troops? Is there any specific reason (or army) that would make 2+ troops a problem instead? (By 2+ I mean essentially 2-6)
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2007/06/19 00:54:53
Subject: RE: Help with a tournament checklist!
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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To keep people from loading up on cheap las/plas Tac Squads or daemons...
The troops are the strongest part of some armies.
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2007/06/19 01:25:27
Subject: RE: Help with a tournament checklist!
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Uhlan
Deep in the heart of the Kerensky Cluster
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I'm really feeling the alternate Force Org, with a slight adjustment to Troops. 1 HQ 0-1 Elites 2-3 Troops 0-1 Fast Attack 0-1 Heavy Support 0-1 "Your choice" slot (Either one more Elite, FA, OR Heavy Support slot) With Janthkin's advice, the scoring can easily be divided in to 60% gaming, 20% sports, and 20% painting, with comp essentially being pass or fail. I changed the Troops 'cause I don't like the idea of someone taking 1 minimal Troop choice and plumping everthing else into the other categories. (ninja edit) I'm guessing that since the Emperor's Champ doesn't take up an HQ slot, Black Templars can still field him and another HQ under this format, correct?
Clear and simple... I like it... Looks, to me, like a tourney that would be a lot of fun to play in. Seems like it would be pretty difficult to squeeze in too much cheese but there is still room for some interesting lists. 1000 points for Templars is tough no matter what. Given the EC your looking at HQ nearing 25% of comp...
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2007/06/19 02:06:43
Subject: RE: Help with a tournament checklist!
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Been Around the Block
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Since the emp champ in BT list doesnt count as an hq choice, do his pts go towards the 200 pt limit for BT? Im guessing he doesnt count towards the 1 hq restriction either.
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2007/06/19 02:32:32
Subject: RE: Help with a tournament checklist!
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Uhlan
Deep in the heart of the Kerensky Cluster
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It's some tricky wording in the codex. Basically the EC is an HQ choice that does not take up a slot in the FOC. The EC is mandatory in Armies of 750 and greater.
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2007/06/19 03:18:44
Subject: RE: Help with a tournament checklist!
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Been Around the Block
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hmm..ok i guess no BT in this tourney then..?...OR lower pt vow and low-bling hq choice- marshall or castellan then.
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2007/06/19 14:45:14
Subject: RE: Help with a tournament checklist!
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Regular Dakkanaut
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To Beefheart and brprelate:
To clarify, I'm dumping all my original checklist points to the alternate Force Org (so you can take less then 30% Troops, more then 200pts in your single HQ choice...etc)
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2007/06/21 07:54:43
Subject: RE: Help with a tournament checklist!
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Been Around the Block
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cool. cause i was also thinking you wouldnt get any ravenwing players...sammael is 205 pts. but i would leave the 30% rule..OR 2 troop squads MUST be full squads (2 full troop choices minimum).
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2007/06/21 08:40:19
Subject: RE: Help with a tournament checklist!
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Fixture of Dakka
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OR 2 troop squads MUST be full squads (2 full troop choices minimum) Obviously, you don't play Imperial Guard (full platoon?). Or Necrons (20 warriors/squad). Or even CSM (20 marines/squad). Etc. The other half of enforcing comp without actually scoring comp involves how you set up your missions. Require mobility. Require multiple scoring units to hold different objectives. Heck, just have a primary, secondary, and even tertiary mission, each awarding (progressively fewer) battle pionts. People with one-trick pony armies tend to do poorly in scenarios that require a balanced force.
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Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? |
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2007/06/21 11:59:52
Subject: RE: Help with a tournament checklist!
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Regular Dakkanaut
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The Canadian Hall of Heroes league has a list of 11 missions for the organizers to choose from.
http://ca.games-workshop.com/CommunityNew/HOH/HOHdownload/Hoh-2007ScenarioGuide.pdf
Some are a little wacky (Flank Attack springs to mind,) but many of them involve claiming objectives, getting to deployment zones and such.
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