Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I don't see how they can adjust the price of the TLAC Razorback (which aren't even broken, BTW) without making the other options too expensive. That they are being used as a Battle tank rather than an APC is mostly due to the other battle tanks outside the Quad Las Predator(which is still beaten by two Twin Las Razorbacks) being kinda crap. If they buffed the Vindicator (it should do d6 shots base, 3d3 against 10+) and made the Predator T8, we would be in business. Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing the T8 tanks bumped up to a 2+ Sv(Vindicator, Hunter, and Stalker). The Razorback and Rhino can stay at T7 since they were historically lightly armored compared to the Predator and Whirlwind.

Also, Traceoftoxin, put your giant images behind spoilers. They really mess up the thread view.

You would then need to bump actual Battle Tanks up to a 2+ save like the Leman Russ plus similar heavily armoured Rhino variants such as the Exorcist.

Theyll 'nerf' the TLAC like they did conscripts. Make it fire two less shots but then give it a special rule to fire twice. :p

Unrelated to the most recent discussions, but how would you guys run vanilla terminators? (I know they're not at all competitive and that's fine for me)

I'm on the fence if chainfists are worth the points, and I also can't decide if the AC is better than the RL.

Can't go wrong with the AC, the range couples well with the stormbolters. Other than that I'd leave them as-is.

 Flood wrote:
Can't go wrong with the AC, the range couples well with the stormbolters. Other than that I'd leave them as-is.

Agreed. The AC neatly complements the storm bolters in close-range dakka, which is where most of their damage output will be. 16 storm bolter shots are bound to put a dent in something, the softer the better. I consider their powerfists to be backup weapons and am not interested in the chainfist upgrade: at that high price, I'd rather take a dedicated assault terminator squad.

Most importantly I think, I wouldn't run them alone. Many Terminator strikes fail because people think they are indestructible and they over-extend them, deep striking them well away from the rest of their army. Thing is, they're still just a few 1s away from being rendered ineffective. Combine them with some other deep striking or fast moving elements to force your opponent to choose a target, or even consider keeping them in reserve for a turn or dropping them with your army for support instead of way out in the enemy deployment zone.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:


Overall I think this list is very strong. The only army I wasn't confident I could beat was the one I lost to, and the overall winner. Every unit performed as expected. I could see getting to the upper tables at a larger GT, but the list has a massive weakness to smite spam. Hordes could be a problem, depending on the army and what else is with the horde. The strongest things in the list were absolutely the bike chapter master and the preds. I would upgrade chapter master to thunder hammer, and maybe drop bike for JP. The mobility was a factor in every game, and the larger base helps with aura size. Company vets put out lots of dice and ate a 3 damage smite for him as well. The only thing I wished I had more of was scouts, though idk how I'd fit them. The crusaders were used to screen in 2 games, though when they actually got to shoot they were doing good damage. I was considering going heavier on the tarantulas, as enemies who charge them but dont wipe them can still be shot, but have to fall back to move away. The BT helm and strat were pivotal in both of my wins, and key to me staying alive in my last fight. I rerolled something like 3 or 4 charges with the chapter tactic, as well. I used all of my CP in every match.

I ended up in 3rd, the person I beat in round 2 was 2nd place because he had 2 major victories. That stung a bit, but that's just the way the cookie crumbles, I suppose.

While I do not have a ton of experience yet, I feel BT can make some moves up the ladder. The only match I have been 100% taken apart on so far was against smite spam, so I am adjusting my army to see how we can take it on. Good job representing!

Note on Reivers - I think taking a squad of 10 and splitting them up into combat squads would give you a large threat against characters if you can get them into a sweet spot for deployment, but it would be dependent on getting first turn. I'll give a report once I get a rematch against that Tzeentch player.

About Librarians: I find them to be pretty good for buffing Dreads or beat stick characters. I run one in my gunlines, but I usually have a Vanguard Squad that I hold for counter charges, as well as a Contemptor Dread. So I can buff the charge of the VV and Might of Ancients the Dread and it makes me harder to shift when they inevitably get to my lines.

 Captain Garius wrote:
About Librarians: I find them to be pretty good for buffing Dreads or beat stick characters. I run one in my gunlines, but I usually have a Vanguard Squad that I hold for counter charges, as well as a Contemptor Dread. So I can buff the charge of the VV and Might of Ancients the Dread and it makes me harder to shift when they inevitably get to my lines.

Seems wasteful using MoH on a VV squad.

 tpogs wrote:

 Captain Garius wrote:
About Librarians: I find them to be pretty good for buffing Dreads or beat stick characters. I run one in my gunlines, but I usually have a Vanguard Squad that I hold for counter charges, as well as a Contemptor Dread. So I can buff the charge of the VV and Might of Ancients the Dread and it makes me harder to shift when they inevitably get to my lines.

Seems wasteful using MoH on a VV squad.

I think he is moh on the dread

making it T8 or 9

 Desubot wrote:

 tpogs wrote:

 Captain Garius wrote:
About Librarians: I find them to be pretty good for buffing Dreads or beat stick characters. I run one in my gunlines, but I usually have a Vanguard Squad that I hold for counter charges, as well as a Contemptor Dread. So I can buff the charge of the VV and Might of Ancients the Dread and it makes me harder to shift when they inevitably get to my lines.

Seems wasteful using MoH on a VV squad.

I think he is moh on the dread

making it T8 or 9

It is T7 to T8 on a Comtemptor Dreadnoght, which is a real big deal. It also makes the dread to have one more attack.

Yes sorry if I was unclear. I don't have my book in front of me for the name of the other power. I use the one that gives reroll charges and always fight first on the VV, Might of Heroes on the Dread makes it mean with the extra T, S, and A.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 tpogs wrote:

 Captain Garius wrote:
About Librarians: I find them to be pretty good for buffing Dreads or beat stick characters. I run one in my gunlines, but I usually have a Vanguard Squad that I hold for counter charges, as well as a Contemptor Dread. So I can buff the charge of the VV and Might of Ancients the Dread and it makes me harder to shift when they inevitably get to my lines.

Seems wasteful using MoH on a VV squad.

I think he is moh on the dread

making it T8 or 9

It is T7 to T8 on a Comtemptor Dreadnoght, which is a real big deal. It also makes the dread to have one more attack.

My bad didnt see the contemptor part so i assumed T8 for normal dreads and T9 for ironclads.

I never even thought of MOH on a dreadnought, that's a sexy thought. I normally give it to my captain on a bike and salamanders mantel to make him T7.

 GangstaMuffin24 wrote:
Unrelated to the most recent discussions, but how would you guys run vanilla terminators? (I know they're not at all competitive and that's fine for me)

I'm on the fence if chainfists are worth the points, and I also can't decide if the AC is better than the RL.

Vanilla Terminators are actually competitive in 8th, especially when you use them properly. Bolter Drill with Imperial Fists is nice, 6+ ignore a wound with Iron Hands is great, they put out tons of shots, are durable, and can obliterate a tank if you get the charge on the turn they come in, after shooting an infantry squad to pieces. AC is great, chainfist only if you have extra points floating around, add 1 or 2, but points is better used elsewhere most of the time. A squad of 10 Teleporting is great, especially if supported by a Libby in terminator armor for Null zone in certain situations.

The reason I like the marine's Librarius discipline is its buff type power apply to units with "Adeptus Astartes" keyword, so it also buffs GK, BA, SW and DA

Assault Cannon on regular Terminators. Cyclone is mildly too expensive for my liking. They're not spectacular but I wouldn't actually mind running them for once in my game career since 4th.

I think assault cannon is definitely the way to go with termies, but I haven't really found them to be that useful so far in the 2-3 games i've used them.

Making the charge is unreliable without a librarian in range + getting the power off, and as good as the firepower is, it's on a very expensive unit that dies fairly quickly to plasma.

I had my first negative experience with my Primaris against my regular opponent lol. We played maelstrom for the first time. He wised up with 2D weapons, had some rolls go his way (first shots of the game from a crawler blew up a Dread, and plinked a mortal wound on my captain), Blightlord termies held up my killiest stuff (they are unreal resilient), and an exploding drone put the last wound on another dread, captain and lieutenant. He went first and I conceded after his third turn lol. Lessons were learned about hiding things, the danger of mortal wounds, and the danger of crawlers shooting out of line of sight.

I pretty much exclusively run my Primaris as Raptors (Raven Guard) so that helps with the plasma being an issue. That extra -1 to hit either makes people think or else it helps you take them out with you. Blight Lords are nasty; I actually am starting to run them in my own Death Guard army now. I actually feel like this may be a place where Grav really shines. The added weight of fire, and chance for 3 wounds to make them pass more DR saves I think will help. Still just speculation though. I'll run some math on it later. Drones and Plagueburst Crawlers are two of the best things in the Death Guard Codex. Super durable, respectable damage, and either fast or decent range. I don't know how he ran them, but the Entropy Cannons are the best bet, so if you can make him have to shoot out of LoS then you will be doing yourself a favor. They are just the perfect mix of hard to kill with enough damage you can't really ignore them. The drones usually you want to try and ignore, but they can be so disruptive that it's hard to.

Just played against my buddies IG tank company. Pask having 2+to his armor saves from the combination of psychic barrier and the take cover stratagem is really obnoxious. Made my 8 lascannons rather worthless. No idea how to deal with that codex as SM. Seems like with most objective and game types IG will just flat out wear SM's down.

So a Robby G Gunline/Razor Spam list finished 1st in the recent GT heat.

It featured no scouts or Intercessors, but SIX Tactical Marine squads as the Troops of choice.

Too bad they're smoldering garbage and nobody should take/use them ever...

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/16/the-grand-tournament-heat-1-the-roundup/

Perhaps 8th is still new, and the verdict is still out on what units are good and which ones are "garbage". Certain posters in this thread that feel compelled to trash specific units should refrain from speaking in absolutes until they know enough about the metagame to make sweeping judgements about it.

oh hey that's the tabletop tactic guy (I think).

But yeah, tacs aren't bad. They just aren't very good.

The neat thing is, we'll probably be getting a breakdown from him on his channel

Glad to see Tacs doing well, although I still think I prefer double Plasma over a Lascannon.

Was the IG codex in for the heat?

 wtwlf123 wrote:
So a Robby G Gunline/Razor Spam list finished 1st in the recent GT heat.

It featured no scouts or Intercessors, but SIX Tactical Marine squads as the Troops of choice.

Too bad they're smoldering garbage and nobody should take/use them ever...

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/16/the-grand-tournament-heat-1-the-roundup/

Perhaps 8th is still new, and the verdict is still out on what units are good and which ones are "garbage". Certain posters in this thread that feel compelled to trash specific units should refrain from speaking in absolutes until they know enough about the metagame to make sweeping judgements about it.

Oh look it happened at ONE tournament and you're using that as your baseline. Remember in 6th when someone did the same thing with Calgar and 5 Tactical Squads?
Nobody does because it happened once. If he took Scouts I'd have guaranteed even BETTER results.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also everyone knows the reason that list did well was the Assault Cannon Razorbacks + Rowboat. If even one of those was removed it would've done poorly.

There is also a big difference between taking 6 squads of tacs compared to only taking 2-3. Sometimes spamming a mediocre unit can be good in the right army.

What it did for his list is force the other player to chew through 4 marines each time they need to get rid of a las cannon. Compared to a predator or dev squad, which are definitely "better" units in a vacuum, it makes it much harder to eliminate the las cannons even if you go first, since a lot of armies can kill 2 predators or 2 dev squads in one turn, but probably can't kill 6 tac squads. It's entirely possible that you get more las cannon shots over the course of the game if they are spread out like that.

It is true that the only thing that made up for the inefficiency of the Tacs was the incredible efficiency of the Razorbacks, Stormraven, and Roboute, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad idea.

I was at the GT heat. Qualified, just, with 3 wins. Learned a lot about the game in the process.

I found my storm raven and repulsor extremely good for engaging enemy units in melee - especially parking lots. There's a bit of a trick to it but ultimately what you do is charge a razorback, then consolidate and rotate your tank sideways, so as to get within 1" of the tanks either side of it.

I did that in my last game against a dark angels parking lot and it dropped the firepower coming back at me by a huge amount. The storm raven got a first turn charge, then to my surprise it turned out that my opponent was so bunched up, and with a ruin on one side, that he couldn't even fall back. This meant that my storm raven was still locked in combat and he couldn't even shoot at it. Then on my turn of course it was free to fly away, while my repulsor had caught up and was ready to take over.

It also helped a lot that on turn 2 I killed 4 of his vehicles, and 3 of them exploded. Loads of his guys were caught by the explosions, and both Azrael and his Primaris Lieutenant died. He conceded at that point, as his army was a total mess.

I had a lot of luck with the explosions in that game. The main thing though was that by that point my captain had the relic and had nearly made it behind a hill that would have made him totally safe, out of LoS of all of the firebase.

I'm considering taking more fast, hovering flyers specifically for this job. Maybe two stormtalons, or even three of them for the CP (though that may be overkill). I'd love to have another repulsor as well.

I learned how to do this the hard way. My opponent in game 2 was using sisters with 5 or 6 repressors, all but one of which had 5 melta gun dominions inside.

He had a key trick that he repeated a few times. Seraphim charge a unit, and surround one guy so that it's impossible for him to move away and fall back. Repressors also charge it. So now you can't shoot the repressor, and you can't really kill it because it's only engaged one marine.

Then the next turn the repulsor will fall back. It now can't shoot or assault, but the dominions inside it can. So effectively you have these all-but-invincible repressors driving around, melting all your stuff, and there's very little you can do about it.

Over the weekend there was quite a lot of complaining about Forgeworld. When a lot of tournament players pick through those indexes for the broken stuff, a lot of filth appears. Repressors are one of the worst examples, because they totally change the sisters of battle. How can the rules team write rules for any army if Forgeworld is going to come along and let them ride in transports they can shoot out of - or whatever. For example it's going to be weird when electro priests, who are meant to have to foot slog, get to ride in a triaros (or whatever it's called).

If anything's worse than Forgeworld it's Guilliman, and if anything's worse than Guilliman it's IG tank companies. There was a guy with 9 Catachan Leman Russ. They consistently spit out really large numbers of shots. Amusingly, the guy who wrote the IG codex was there, using necrons, and he got tabled by a tank company in a really short time. This was the favourite moment of the weekend for a lot of people, including his colleagues in the design studio.

I got to play Jes Bickham's death guard, and managed to table him on turn 5. That Mortarion chap can take some shooting. Jes is a very nice guy and we had a good chat about the state of the game, the "new" GW and other stuff. Overall it was a really fun weekend. Oh and my crimson fists got nominated as one of the best painted armies, which was nice. A death korps army won that prize.

 wtwlf123 wrote:
So a Robby G Gunline/Razor Spam list finished 1st in the recent GT heat.

It featured no scouts or Intercessors, but SIX Tactical Marine squads as the Troops of choice.

Too bad they're smoldering garbage and nobody should take/use them ever...

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/16/the-grand-tournament-heat-1-the-roundup/

Perhaps 8th is still new, and the verdict is still out on what units are good and which ones are "garbage". Certain posters in this thread that feel compelled to trash specific units should refrain from speaking in absolutes until they know enough about the metagame to make sweeping judgements about it.

The list only worked because of Gulliman - plain and simple.

The Lascannons go from [6 shots, 4 hits, 2-3 wounds] to... [6 shots, 6 hits, 6 wounds]. Significant difference.

Gulliman is just that powerful - rerolling ALL hits and ALL wounds is insane; Salamanders trait, all the time, on every model, every shot.

Oh, and nevermind that Gulliman can CC any monster or model (superheavy or otherwise) that comes to threaten his circle of marines - throw the "lives until the close combat is over" strategem on top of that; there's no risk of him not doing his job, ever.

The 6 Razorbacks also output serious work; even without Gulliman's auras, they're still VERY solid.

Mandragola wrote:
Oh and my crimson fists got nominated as one of the best painted armies, which was nice.

Pics.

So probably this is old hat to everyone else, but just had a fun game against a friend last week with my primaris.

I brought:

1 gravis captain
1 primaris librarian
3 intercessor squads
1 redemptor
1 hellblaster squad

He had something like the following:
1 warboss on bike
1 warboss on foot
1 wierdboy
2 deffkoptas
1 battlewagon, 20 boyz,
30 boyz
2 killa kans

We played index rules, other than point costs (no wargear, no chapter traits). He'd never played orks before, and we were both pretty sure his list was far from optimal, but he wanted to use what he had.

The Captain and 5 intercessors got charged by a 30 man ork (da jump) squad first turn, they were on my flank. I was a bit lucky, and he forgot he had his nob when he charged. (30 orks, it was hard to see him in there). But the Gravis Captain just tanked the hell out of the orks. The charge was a stretch at 9", and a lot of the orks didn't make it into combat the first round. He only managed to take out a single intercessor. I was quite impressed at their durability.

The following turn I got might of heroes off on the intercessors, charged a second intercessor squad and the librarian in, and pretty much wiped out the orks. It was brutal. Had he got a couple hits with his nob off the first round he might have taken out my captain with some luck, but it was hard to know.

Meanwhile on the other flank his whole army pretty much faced off with my redemptor and 1 squad of intercessors in ruins. The redemptor wasn't going to get away, so I charged his battlewagon (in retrospect this was a terrible terrible idea), and failed to bust it. Everything left in his army charged the redemptor, but it tanked it all for two turns.

Eventually managed to wipe out most of his army. I ended up only losing 5 intercessors, a hellblaster, and the redemptor. I was really surprised at how tough the primaris could be if properly dug into cover, or in melee against units with no ap. His Big Choppas and Power Claws were very threatening however.

I also realized I have no idea how to properly deploy space marines. Any advice for that?

What does the table typically kinda look like? If I have a picture similar I can assist.