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We all know the Fish of Fury (Devilfish + 12 Fire Warriors with Pulse Rifles) is quite effective.

I'm wondering if this works for Eldar too with Dire Avengers on a Wave Serpent.

10 Dire Avengers is the same price as 12 Fire Warriors (base), and even with an Exarch and Bladestorm they're not much more.

The extra point of BS statistically nullifies the Fire Warriors' extra point of strength, and the Exarch's BS5 with 4 shots makes up for having two less models in the unit.

A Wave Serpent has about the same survivability as a 'Fish.

So why not Serpents of Fury? Wave Serpent drives up and dumps out a load of Dire Avengers who Bladestorm away. They can even do it from further off (18" rather than 12" to rapid fire) and then mount up again in their reloading turn to repeat the process.

Is there something I'm missing here?

Eldar has insane elites and heavy support? Oh wait, Tau do too.

Works great in comp environments, you're not missing anything. The waveserpent however is generally easier to kill even though it can't be stunned.

A 29 shot DA storm can be highly effective (assuming a diresword otion for the exarch). Combined with Doom, and the wave serpent's fire itself it appears to be especially efficacious. In contrast to the dragons I would view an exarch as required, if for the bladestorm alone. I tried it for the first time last night and was pleasantly surprised by the slaughter they put out.

If you're playing more against high value/heavy armor targets or expect a lot of counterfire would wraithguard also work?

The biggest problem I see with this plan is the access point. In devil fish, there are access points for troops to disembark on the sides of the transport. This allows the fish to arrange themselves butt-to-butt and dumb the fire warriors out the sides, thus creating a wall of devil fish between the fire warriors and their intended target. Wave serpents do not have the ability to do that (at least not as well) since the only access point is in the rear. This will leave the serpents sitting length wise, pointing (for the most part) directly at their target. Now the shooting portion of the plan will still be effective, but the troops will be more vulnerable to being charged on the following turn.

Wouldn't that mostly be made up for by being 18" away rather than 12"?

The difference is that the tau can do it alot cheaper, say 200 pts for a fish full of troops, and the eldar are paying 300+ for the same thing.

And at 18" away, who needs to "Fury" anyway?

Why not do a Serpent of Fury attack with two squads of ten firedragons? At those numbers, they cease to be tank hunters and become mass marine killers. I can think of little else that would wreak more havok on a marine flank then to be hit by that.

SoF (Serpent of Fury) is quite the popular tactic on other boards. Biggest difference is as Whitedragon said: SoF costs about 50% more for the same effect (vs. MEq). Granted, DA can get Bladestorm which will increase their damage output by about 50%, but then they can't fire next turn.

Also, I'd rather have BS3 and S5 than BS4 and S4. They're only equivalent vs. MEq. Vs. stuff like wraithlords, TMCs, and vehicles, S5 is better.

pheonix you never put fish "butt to butt" because that gives your opponant a big shot at side armor on a fish which is only 11 instead of 12 front.

the point of the FOF tactic is to get them out behind 2 DF sitting side by side. that way if you want to assault the FWs you have to go arround the fish to do it. most units in the game do not have the movement to do it.

i run a mechanized tau list with 5 fish,  a mandatory crisis suit commander, and 3 hammerheads, its very effective and is hard to kill. the one thing i lack is alot of anti-tank weapons. the majority of my fire being smart missles and burst cannons. S5 AP5 isn't anything to ignore but it wont do much to anything above a rhino hull.

 

my army is a bit different in that the tanks are the killing power of the army, the troops only get out to claim objectives or if the transport is destroyed. when i saw the new eldar dex i did a quick number crunch to see how it would work eldar style.

with min sized DA squads in serpents with stone, vectors, shuriken cannon, TLbright lance  a farseer,  falcons kitted with stone, vectors, HF, scatter laser, shuriken cannons . you can get all 6 troop slots filled-6 serpents with DAs + the 3 falcons and a farseer with some wargear all in under 1850 . thats one more transport than i can get with my tau.

both armies perform similarly with different strong points. eldar have less shots with a lower BS but every unit can kil a tank or terminator and have TLd weapons,  hammerheads primarily are tank killers, falcons set up as above are more troop killers.  eldar never stop moving on a glance 3, and thier tanks are "fast"  tau only move 12" max and sit still on a glance 3. on a glance  5 eldar tanks just make a forced landing. tau make you do a re-roll and often times something better comes of it..

it's all a matter of what strengths and weaknesses you wish to play to. mine was built as a psudo tank company tau style.

Posted By Asmodai on 06/21/2007 1:55 PM
Wouldn't that mostly be made up for by being 18" away rather than 12"

Yes it would, I mearly wanted to point out a potential problem.  The added range of the dire avenger over the firewarrior should be helpful in keeping them alive longer.

Tangential: What's the smart loadout for the Dire Avengers? I'm guessing Diresword, Bladestorm, Defend (or whatever it's called).

That about it?

I find serpents are a bit overpriced as transports for Avengers. IMO your better of letting the Avengers walk (and technically almost get double the numbers). With their 18" range they get to shoot early enough. Shielding them with Skimmers IS a good idea, but Falcons with Harlequins / Firedragons seem more appropriate.

Utilizing all phases of the game (aka movement, shooting, assault) is the strength of Eldar after all.

One extra advatage of DA's over FW's is that DA's can take a charge easily also (defend plus shimmershield)

Granted, this may not be the best idea always. Sometimes you want them to break easily.

skyth another thing DA have over FW is blade storm. all those extra shots, but i don't get to shoot next turn.....which doesn't matter anyway because i am just gettting right back into my tank anyway. >

 

 

DA also have the appeal to me of being something other than the falcon toting harlies and fire dragon armies  that are poping up everywhere.

 

Right...That's why I said extra advantage...The bladestorm had been mentioned before

I'm doing up my DA's that way once I get them assembled...(In process of selling house/moving. Don't want sprues all over and don't have time )