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Whether a direct fire ordnance weapon can hit targets that are out of line of sight if the template scatters to include units that are out of line of sight.

yes they can but the unit will gain a cover save from the intervening terrain.

Do you have any reference?

I'm at work right now but hopefully one of the other guys will pop along with one.

Sorry

Reference is in the Warhammer 40k FAQ on the GW site.

Great!

Thanks DIG !

Is the cover save taken by terrain between the firer or the center of the blast marker??? (sorry if this is a n00bish Q)

Posted By 01777 on 06/21/2007 2:46 PM
Is the cover save taken by terrain between the firer or the center of the blast marker??? (sorry if this is a n00bish Q)

Only if the weapon is an Ordnance barrage (as opposed to a direct-fire Ordnance weapon).

 

 

Direct fire provides cover save for terrain between the victim and the firer.

Posted By yakface on 06/21/2007 2:55 PM

Posted By 01777 on 06/21/2007 2:46 PM
Is the cover save taken by terrain between the firer or the center of the blast marker??? (sorry if this is a n00bish Q)

Only if the weapon is an Ordnance barrage (as opposed to a direct-fire Ordnance weapon).

 

 

So how would that work then, if its assuming between the victime and the firer? 

Example. Victim is behind house. House intervenes between firing tank and victim. Tank shoots and the shell deviates onto victim behind house. Whats the save? normally they couldn't be shot to begin with as they are behind said house?

Absent the victime being in some type of area terrain (trees, ruins etc.) I'd proffert no additional cover save would be obtained.

 

House? Just draw a straight line from the firer to where the Ordnance template ends up. Use the terrain's save in between the unit hit and the firer.

Well the best answer to this is you'd use the save that the 'house' was classified as before the game. Probably a 4+?

In general terms you'd use the save of the terrain directly between the Firer and the unit hit. If there is more than one piece I personally would go with the terrain directly in front of the unit that was hit.

Think of it like the shell passes through the terrain before exploding fully... something like that. I mean it's not logical to have a tanks' shell fly straight and then at the last second turn behind a house and THEN explode. Unless it was fired by Bugs Bunny or something. The tank's target may well be to the right but when it fires the shell deviates left (but still in a straight line). An imperfection in the barrell, a cross-eyed gunner... there are limitless possibilties to explain why in a fluff standpoint. Either way it is a 'direct fire' meaning 'straight towards a target' whereas a barrage is a 'lob' which could very well deviate high in the air before it comes down behind the terrain and cause no cover saves (as you are thinking).

That doesn't work if the terrain actually blocked LOS. The house instance-no cover save as it would completely block the shot (or assume concrete bunker to avoid unclarity).

If the intervening terrain between the firer and the unit actually hit would totally block the shot (hill, wall, Emperator class titan hey I can dream) how would that work?

Ok go BACK to the ORIGINAL post.

The TARGET UNIT is IN LOS AND RANGE. The Ordnance rolls a scatter that deviates BEHIND the terrain (in the case of the last example a house) and hits models that are OUT of LOS of the firing unit.

GW has ruled that even though the unit hit is out of LOS of the firer, they CAN be hit BUT you'd make a cover save for the terrain that is blocking the LOS.


........Unit B..............Unit A
HOUSEHOUSEHOUSE
HOUSEHOUSEHOUSE
HOUSEHOUSEHOUSE
HOUSEHOUSEHOUSE
.....................
.....................
.....................
.....................
..............................TANK FIRING DIRECT FIRE ORDNANCE


Tank fires on Unit A
Shot scatter to Unit B

Unit B DOES take hits BUT gets cover save for house. Aaaaaaaaaaaaand cut scene.

Exactly. Normally the lack of LOS would prevent the models being hit in the first place, but the direct-fire Ordnance rules make a specific exception for scattering shots. There is nothing said about cover, but the standard rules for cover state that cover saves do apply if there is cover between the firer and the unit hit.

To make a long story short- I agree with DaIronGob.

Then whats the cover save?

Whatever's normally granted by that terrain feature according to the chart.

Building/ruin/vehicle/wreck: 4+
Forest/most other things: 5+

Thats area terrain. Lets say its a hill.

A Hill? Hmm in game i'd give it a 4+. Hard Cover. But that's just an opinion and seems to be fair.

In that situation you'd want to just work it out with your opponent.

Regardless though, GW has stated that the deviated shot can in fact hit a Unit out of LOS, doesn't matter if it's a hill or a vase.

We're agreeing with the interpretation that the unit can be hit outside of LOS. I'm just not sure what the statement concerning cover means. As this is a situation not likely to come up in pre-game discussions, it could be one of some contention.

You are confusing LoS with cover.

The chart on p. 25 is *not* just for area terrain. A house, if classified as a 'building' provides a 4+ cover save.

If the model was standing behind a house, but on a hill so you could see part of the model, you would have LoS and could shoot it. The model would get a 4+ cover save because the house is in the way. (Note: house is *not* area terrain in this case)

If the model drops off the hill, the house still provides a 4+ cover save, but you can't shoot at him because no LoS

An ordnance weapon ends up scattering and hitting the model behind the house, the house still provides a 4+ cover save, and no LoS is needed.

Let me restate the question. Forget the house. He's behind a hill or some mighty obstruction (again the dream of a titan's foot enters the picture). The firer would not have LOS. There is no cover saved discussed. There is no appropriate area terrain cover save. How do we handle that?

Posted By jfrazell on 06/22/2007 1:14 PM
Let me restate the question. Forget the house. He's behind a hill or some mighty obstruction (again the dream of a titan's foot enters the picture). The firer would not have LOS. There is no cover saved discussed. There is no appropriate area terrain cover save. How do we handle that?

If the target is obscured by cover it gets a cover save. In this case the target is completely obscured by cover, but that still qualifies.

Therefore you use the cover save of whatever terrain is blocking line of sight. Exactly what save each piece of cover provides needs to be decided upon between the players before the game.

Let me restate the best possible answer. (Even though Yak has it down) I'll try and take it to your specific example as best as I feel is adequate. Mind you these are only possible suggestions.

You deal with it as it happens as there is no current ruling that covers this situation.
The way I see it is this.

You go by RAW and since HILLS don't provide cover saves the unit out of LOS is screwed.

You allow a hill to provide 'hard' cover just like a 'building'.

When I start a game we discuss cover for EVERYTHING at the beginning of the game. Generally it takes less than a minute. Anything covered on the chart in the book- we use the value in the book. Everything else we generally have as a 5+.

Posted By DaIronGob on 06/22/2007 1:32 PM

Let me restate the best possible answer. (Even though Yak has it down) I'll try and take it to your specific example as best as I feel is adequate. Mind you these are only possible suggestions.

You deal with it as it happens as there is no current ruling that covers this situation.
The way I see it is this.

You go by RAW and since HILLS don't provide cover saves the unit out of LOS is screwed.

Why would you say the RAW don't cover the situation? The cover rules certainly do. If line of sight to the target is obscured by cover then the target counts as being in cover. Clearly a model completely obscured by cover is 'obscured by cover' and would therefore get a cover save.

The rules suggest you give the crest of hills a 5+ cover save so this would be a good rule of thumb unless both players agree otherwise.

 

 

Ok, I admit that I was under the, ahem.... assumption... that the charts did not include hills since Jfraz kept insisting that a "hill" would be a different in this situation somehow...

I jumped the gun a bit in my RAW accusation. For that I apologize.

Hmmm.. let me quote... me. From right above your post.



Behind a hill, you get cover, behind a house, you get cover, behind a fence, you get cover. *Regardless* of if they can see you.

*IF* they can see you, they can shoot. If they can't see you, they can't shoot. But the cover save is there regardless.

Feel free to reread my post, if you want, you can edit it and put 'hill' instead of 'house' and '5+' instead of '4+'

Posted By DaIronGob on 06/22/2007 1:32 PM


You go by RAW and since HILLS don't provide cover saves the unit out of LOS is screwed.

By RAW, hills are defined as 5+ cover.

do you have to roll to hit and wound when firing an ordnance weapon? for example the battle cannon on a leman russ, or do you just place the blast marker roll the scatter dice and it hit and wounds whatever is under it?

Posted By InfernalBeastie on 06/23/2007 6:38 PM
do you have to roll to hit and wound when firing an ordnance weapon? for example the battle cannon on a leman russ, or do you just place the blast marker roll the scatter dice and it hit and wounds whatever is under it?

Ordnance uses the same rules for determining hits and wounds as blast markers.