Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Was talking with the owner of my local hobby shop (Bob), and how he was upset at Testors for discontinuing their marine paint series of ModelMaster paints.  Topic eventually turned to Games Workshop, and how they were just as annoying as Testors from a store owner viewpoint.  He has long ago stopped ordering from GW directly, going through a 3rd party instead.

However, he also said that he got a call about 2 weeks ago from the GW rep who wanted to know if he had any orders.  Bob responded, as usual, no... your policies just don't work for me.   To which the rep responded "well, that's all changed now."

But Bob never told me WHAT those policy changes were.

Anybody have any input?

Apparently USGW is making overtures to some independent retailers. Here in Boston (with GW pulling out of several of its own retail locations), a couple of GW reps recently approached the owner of our local FLGS (who went with a third-party distributor a few years ago, because GW was so difficult to deal with), looking to reforge a relationship. At least, that's what I've been able to pick up third-hand.

You now get a free hat with every order!

Seriously, I'm hoping they are waking up. They can't ignore their independents and expect to thrive. Hopefully they will be putting some of their competitive nature behind them and giving more programs to independent stores.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Just my point of veiw.

Of course my point of veiw is from someone running independent game shops and carrying GW for 20 years, and talking to them 3 to 5 times a week.

Like any other manufacturer or distributor of games, GW has had it's ups and downs as far as quality, policies, and ease of dealing with them. I've got a very good relationship with them, and I've also cursed them, and been a general pain in the behind to them.

Someone one that owns their own shop is by nature very independent, and probably has a strong personality. (Bullheaded and thinks he's right all the time, if you don't want to be politically correct about it.) It means we butt heads with publishers and distributors on how we think things should be run, and what a companies policies should be. Some of us can have a high level of tolerance and can look past things that go wrong, or differences of opinion, some of us can't or don't choose to. To each their own. My store is my castle.

In the past, GW got a bit harder to deal with. Some of their policies got worse, (from a stores veiw). Having their own mailorder and chain of stores doesn't help an independent warm up to them either. Some stores decided they didn't want to carry GW and stopped.

For the last year, GW has had a new team working with independent trade accounts. Steve Morgan, who headed up trade in Northern Europe, transferred over to the US, and several other people from different parts of the company moved over to trade. The offices they had established in the Southern, Pacific, and Central parts of the company were all brought back to Baltimore, and the business was re-centralized.

Service has gotten much better, policies have been changed, and overall attitude is much more in tune with independent trade accounts.

-No minimum orders. All my other suppliers require 300 to 500 dollars minimum. GW is now letting stores restock what they need, and still shipping it free of charge, reguardless of the size of the order.

-Stores are not encouraged to take the full line of product. GW is actually trying to get new stores to take much less, and in many cases going into trade accounts that have too much stock, (also old stock, out of print items, or sculpts that have been replaced), pulling it out of the stores and giving them a credit towards new product. One such store recieved 20k in credits. I'm certain that improved the bottom line.

-No attempts at big sales. No big Christmas stockups, no buy 30k and get a free showcase, (although I really liked those-Thanks for 3 of those big showcases guys!), no attempts to get a store to take more than they need, and no pressure on the sales team at GW to hit certain numbers. Much more relaxed atmosphere.

-Racks are still free, along with header cards, inventory cards, posters, and other promo items as they make them.

-Bitz orders were reduced from a minimum of 100.00 at a time to 50.00 at a time. Discount was increased to 35%.

-Some stores, called Partnership Stores, gain additional benefits. These are stores that have gaming tables, have open gaming, run demo games, host tournaments or events, and go the extra step to serve the gaming community and support the hobby. This is open to any store that wants to step up to the plate. Some of the benefits are additional prize support for tournaments, preview books of new codices and army books, terrain for your store, advance copies of models, and a Bitz ordering statio.

-Bitz ordering stations are so cool. You walk up to me and say "Hey, mike, I want this cool 2.00 bit. No problem, I write it down on the order sheet, fax it in to GW mailorder, who enters it as an order, some bitzmonkey in Memphis pops it in an envelope, mails it out, and charges my credit card. I charge you the 2.00 at the register, and about a week later your bit comes into the shop, with free shipping. Lets say that again, "Free shipping on a 2.00 bit". As a retailer, that's excellant. They also email me once a week with a summary of my orders to make sure its all good, and fix problems quickly.

So all in all, much better service. There have been several discussions on retailer boards and many stores that had dropped GW in the past are carrying them again. Lone Star Comics in Texas is a good example, with 7 stores.

This next year is where it get's interesting. GW has a lot of plans for supporting gaming clubs, and additional ideas for supporting independent trade accounts. It could be a much more fun and profitable year.

(Well, for everyone except Bob.)

MIke at Showcase Comics

Mike, big thanks for the detailed followup there.

On of the things Bob had mentioned that drove him nuts in the past was the requirement not only of filling a minimum DOLLAR order, but also a minimum of each SKU he wanted to order. So not only did he have to order X dollars, but also X of each item he wanted. He's still kinda leery on things, but the customer demand is there and he is considering carrying a larger inventory again. Though he still has a "Dark Millenium" box, a pile of ork EPIC stuff, and lots of blisters. But he's got NO space for a table, barely enough empty room for customers to fit in the place.

I'm glad to hear about the changes, almost all positive ones, it's refreshing to hear it.... one can only hope it's part of a trend. I may have to break the stuff out and start playing again.... but dammit nobody here is from Long Island.

As an extremely small retailer I use Alliance for my goods.

From what I've seen is a lot of product not available for preorders until it's almost out at the GW stores or until after it's released. Currently I can't preorder Mighty Empires, the new WFB terrain, Flagellents, etc. This makes it very difficult to get things for people who don't want to wait. I end up losing out a lot. I still can't get a many items from the Dark Angels line among other things.

Alliance does a decent job on GW, but for them it's only one line out of many. Dealing direct with GW, I don't ever have to do pre-orders, and just call in each week and place on order. The box hits my store about Thursday, and any order placed before 4:00pm on Wednesday is guaranteed to get to me by Friday. (I know that on busy weeks my Wednesday order was next day aired to get it to me on time, GW's cost, not mine). Most GW stores put out their new releases on Saturday, and mailorder starts shipping the same week as I recieve product, so I can easily compete with them on time. I actually have it out on my shelves earlier than the GW stores in the area.

Hans-My guess would be that if Bob went direct again with GW, first thing they would do is take back all the old stock that he can't sell, and give him a credit on his first order. They swap out my old stuff each year, and I know they have helped out many retailers that have ancient product, turning it into new boxes that they can sell.

Mike at Showcase

Posted By Moopy on 06/25/2007 6:02 PM
As an extremely small retailer I use Alliance for my goods.

From what I've seen is a lot of product not available for preorders until it's almost out at the GW stores or until after it's released. Currently I can't preorder Mighty Empires, the new WFB terrain, Flagellents, etc. This makes it very difficult to get things for people who don't want to wait. I end up losing out a lot. I still can't get a many items from the Dark Angels line among other things.

Hmm, I think that most of the Dark Angel releases were what they called 'splash' releases. Meaning they come out for a bit, and when they are gone, they are gone. Alliance only gets a small amount of these. It's similar to what was done with Black Templars, and keeps a store from having a million different types of space marine boxes. For someone wanting to build Dark Angels, the best thing is to get the DA veterans box, which has the sprues that they added to existing marine bits to make the DA command squad, DA Battleforce, and other boxes. The vehicle sprue is available through GW mailorder, or a store can bitz order it direct if they go thru GW direct. A lot of the splash releases are great deals, especially the Raven Wing boxs, but they only make so many. Even as a small retailer, it might be good to investigate going direct with GW, if you're getting a lot of requests and special orders.

The big terrain boxes came out last week, some of the smaller ones this week, more to follow. Flagellants aren't out separately yet, and Mighty Empires is still a bit off. One point to make to your customers is that pre-ordering through GW mailorder won't get them anything faster than getting it through you. Sure, they can pay for it now, but mighty empires ships out the same time to everyone.

Mike at Showcase

Hello!

Yes, I do understand about spash products, but there are still some $90 box sets that I still can't get. That's bothersome. Not being able to preorder these things is my biggest beef.

Also, while GW is only one of Alliance's product lines, its a HUGE product line. Kinda like saying that Levi's is only part of the product line in a clothing store. Not having preorders for new items hurts their sales too and it seems to happen more and more in the last year. I'm not sure if there's something going on between those two business, but I would I wouldn't be surprised.

 ( just a reply to the guy who mentioned they were supporting the stores more)

Hence why GW shut down on the internet sellers. They want customers to support the local stores. I worked part time in a hobby store for several years. Do you know how many times I saw guys come in with Magic, Versus, Mechwarrior etc that they ordered online at a discount? But would come and play at the store, and demanded...DEMANDED, big prizes for tournaments etc? They threatened to take their "business" elsewhere if the owner didn't up his ante....yet they were not doing anything to support the store.

People just don't get that they need to support their local stores. Saving a few bucks is great...I want to save a buck like any other guy. But when your stinginess ends up costing the community its FLGS and you have no place to game or meet other gamers...all the money you saved will be wasted with product you can't use.

No pre orders is very odd. I know Alliance gets the information way ahead, especially since the list shows up here all the time. Both Alliance and GW are in Baltimore, and there are even some ex GW guys working over at Alliance. I've got Dirty Steve for a sales rep now.

Ask your rep why those items aren't appearing in Game Trade, or aren't available for pre-orders. Mike Web is also a good guy to talk to at Alliance, to straighten anything out.

Mike at Showcase

My Bro and I had a gaming store a few years back. Not only is GW tough to deal with they are underhanded. We started our store ike a gaming hang out with little overhead. Well when we went to order from GW they told us we had to make a 20,000 dollar order and put everything on the walls. Well that was not about to happen, so we said no we want to order only what we want. So then he told us they had "packages" and he would give us the best one. Well, packages? What happened to this huge order we "had" to make. So after sorting out that we would get a package deal he started pitching them. The packages were just crap. An even amount of marines, DE, GK? WTF? On top of that all the IG was Catachan. After an agonizing hour we said we were going to go with Alliance Gaming, and only after that did they yield. GW bullies the independent retailer.

I guess you didn't read the title. This thread is about a CHANGE in policies at GW towards independent retailers. Sounds like you dealt with the old regime.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

sorry, double post...

Sounds like the days of 'firebomb the independants' is over. Good. There's plenty of FLGS' that will peddal product for them, why not support them? Sounds like good things on the horizon for the indies.

i think the 2 things that are GW's worst policies are
1. FLGS's are not allowed to sell product at a discount
2. banning the internet sales.

as soon as they change those i think we will see an upturn in GW profits.

oh and FLGS's should have had a website 10 years ago, you need to learn to compete in a global marketplace.the internet is here to stay. i know that its hard to compete with the 35% discounts form online stores, so don't try.instead offer 15-25% off for in store pickup and such. it seems like the best stores are both an online presence and brick and mortar.

GW mentioned in their 2006 annual report that they wanted to do business with US indie stores better than they had been doing up until that point.

Maybe this is the start of something good!

Posted By jeremycobert on 06/26/2007 7:15 AM
i think the 2 things that are GW's worst policies are
1. FLGS's are not allowed to sell product at a discount
2. banning the internet sales.

as soon as they change those i think we will see an upturn in GW profits.

oh and FLGS's should have had a website 10 years ago, you need to learn to compete in a global marketplace.the internet is here to stay. i know that its hard to compete with the 35% discounts form online stores, so don't try.instead offer 15-25% off for in store pickup and such. it seems like the best stores are both an online presence and brick and mortar.

1. Indie stores can, and always have been able to sell at a discount. Warstore and BWB are two examples, and there are many more. The restrictions on discounting are related to internet sales and shopping carts.

2. Interntet sales aren't banned, just the use of GW images and shopping carts.

JMHO, but a local store offering 15-25% off is stupid. It's been shown time and again that the majority of stores that go the deep discount route don't survive in the long run. That actually is trying to compete with internet sales. The customer that wants a discount is still going to go for the deeper discount online. At 25% discount you would have to more than double your sales of GW product to make the same amount of gross profit. A store can compete better by doing the things an interenet site cant, providing a quality place for games, events, leagues, classes on scenery or painting, veteran nights, and providing gamers with game tables and quality scenery for their use.

If you want a store that stocks what you need in GW, hobby supplies, and other games, and provides you with a place to play, you should support it.

If your looking for a discount, find the cheapest you can on the internet and play in your basement.

There have been many "old" sales persons that were less than honest. I suppose GW could be blamed for the "high pressure" these salesmen would offer to the hobby stores. They (salesmen) were also under extreme pressure to hit numbers or be let go.. But as has been mentioned many times on this thread. GW is working towards fixing that.. I suppose we can all be like "Bob" and keep living in the old days or we can take a look at the new and see if it fits our needs.

In the end, if it helps your store, go for it. If you find as an owner that it does not, then don't go for it.. But for Christ's sake, at least talk to the reps and see first hand what is offered and quit rumormongering 10-15 year old bad news..

I joined this thread a bit late, and Mikhaila has listed all the stuff I would have posted. All I can say is GW bringing Steve over to deal with the US is one of the best things they have ever done for the B&M stores.

I have been dealing with GW from behind the counter for about 13 years. Back when an item was a $20K and $30K to stat it up in your shop, when new release came out you HAD to order 6 on blisters and 2 on box sets or skip it a week if you did not before you could get them. Back in the days of the stronger armed sales pitches. Back when epic was rereleased and did not do well ( at least in my area ) man those were bad days some time. Those were rough days indeed for people behind the counter.

Steve has changed all that. Before I left my last store and moved out to Hawaii I was still kind of caught off guard when I would order a certain model only to hear my rep say " Man that is a crap fig and do you really want to order that. " or "dont stock that fig, its too expensive for what it is" That still blows my mind. 10 Years ago I am sure that rep would have been fired on the spot for saying such a thing. It is much more easy going to deal with GW now adays than before because of what Steve as changed their policys over too.

If you have a B&M store and are not ordering through them currently, give them a call and see what they can do for you now, you should be surprised. If your a customer and your shop get GW 2nd hand tell them about this they may not know, with their current policy if they stock a decent level of it they shuold save money by dealing direct again.

In the end its more money for the shop and more money they can use to do something better for their shop to make it a better place for you to shop and play. Of corse this will not work for everybody , some store dont stock enough or just do special orders and some owners are so "scared" by GW they will never deal with them again but the option is now there. This really is a crazy change but a good on too be sure.

Wow, so things really DO seem to have made a significant change for the better in at least one regard with GW. Definitely glad to hear it, don't know if Bob is going to be restocking the stuff or not, I'll harass him about it next time I'm in there. Especially the bit regarding old stock credit, as he has piles upon piles of old blisters. Hopefully he does though, otherwise it's a half hour drive each way for my next closest option.... though the further one does have tables to play on.

-Hans

GW are beginning to show signs of a management shakeup. This is occuring outside of their own choices, senior management is being forced into new directions. Gw retail isnt the be all and end all any more. It is likely to be severely cut, or even sold off as a chain of hobby stores.

So it makes sense that GW is looking to rebuild bridges with other retailers as it will increasingly rely on third party sales. hange is coming, this development is just the first tremor of a shockwave that willl shake GW to its core.

This isnt wisful thinking, but a calculated analysis of info leaked, posted and rumoured from many sources both in the hobby and mainstream financial communities.

Posted By tinfoil on 06/25/2007 4:58 PM
Apparently USGW is making overtures to some independent retailers. Here in Boston (with GW pulling out of several of its own retail locations), a couple of GW reps recently approached the owner of our local FLGS (who went with a third-party distributor a few years ago, because GW was so difficult to deal with), looking to reforge a relationship. At least, that's what I've been able to pick up third-hand.

Which retail locations are closing in Boston? HArvard Square, Natick, or Danvers? I used to work down there....

Harvard Square. No specific word on Natick or Danvers yet, although the rumor is, when leases are up in one or the other or possibly both, GW may rearrange things.

At Harvard Square, from what I hear, GW got an opportunity to get out of its lease early, and jumped at the chance. (The lease was very expensive.)

edit:  And let me add: area players should definitely check out Danger Planet -- the finest store in the land!

Yea, if you want to visit the Harvard GW one last time, this Thursday is the last day. :-(

The 'Ard Boys are moving to Pandemonium in Central Square.

{{{[Boston] area players should definitely check out Danger Planet -- the finest store in the land!}}}

Yep, it is a great store with lots of space for gaming. It's a bit hard to find but if you are in the area you should make the effort.

Posted By Orlanth on 06/26/2007 3:29 PM

This isnt wisful thinking, but a calculated analysis of info leaked, posted and rumoured from many sources both in the hobby and mainstream financial communities.

Ummm, you mean rumors posted on Dakka and Warseer, and then discussed endlessly.

Your analysis and mine go in totally different directions.

That is effectively a ban, whether you agree or not is irrelvant. The moment a person cant point and click and buy....means it cant be gotten.

GW's US sales dropped once they instituted it. So if they choose to make their product harder to get...I'll just be buying other items that make it simple for me.

That is effectively a ban, whether you agree or not is irrelvant. The moment a person cant point and click and buy....means it cant be gotten.

GW's US sales dropped once they instituted it. So if they choose to make their product harder to get...I'll just be buying other items that make it simple for me.

Yeah, I don't want to have to talk to a real person to get my toys over the internet. I just wanna clickity-click and drop $100-$200 without thinking about it. Having to write it down and call gives me too much time to think and realize that I don't need all that stuff; yet.

I know my purchasing went WAY down since the ban (even when I worked for them at 60% off it was limited) and now it's next to nothing. I bought two Foundation Paint pots last week and that was the first purchase this year and probably since October of '06.

I'll be interested to see if GW ups the ante with huge support of RT Tournies and Paining Competitions for the indie retailers. Ah, the good old days of fame, fortune and cool trophies . . .