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Howdy,

The Blood Angel overcharged engine rules state:


"On a roll of 4-6, the boosters work, and the vehicle may move as if it were a fast vehicle this turn; however, the maximum distance it can move is limited to 18 inches."


My reading of this rule is that the vehicle only counts as moving as if it were a fast vehicle, something that doesn't make it a fast vehicle. That means in the following shooting phase I believe that the vehicle is still bound by the normal vehicle weapon restrictions for firing weapons (any movment above 6 inches = no firing).

I'm just curious if anyone else comes up with a different interpretation of this rule allowing over-charged vehicles to fire as if they were a fast vehicle?

If it's moving like a fast vehicle then it's a fast vehicle that turn. Isn't there a chart in the rule book that says how many weapons a vehicle can fire based on the distance it moves and isn't that split up between fast and regular vehicles?

Seems pretty clear to me, "...vehicle may move as if it were a fast vehicle..." means just that - it may move as if it were a fast vehicle. Nothing about shooting as if it were a fast vehicle.

It reminds me of Necron Scarabs. They "move" as Jetbikes, but aren't actually Jetbikes (and thus don't get +1 to their Toughness - whether Destroyers do get extra toughness is an entirely new topic of happy debates).

Moves as != counts as.

Posted By blood angel on 06/26/2007 12:22 AM
If it's moving like a fast vehicle then it's a fast vehicle that turn. Isn't there a chart in the rule book that says how many weapons a vehicle can fire based on the distance it moves and isn't that split up between fast and regular vehicles?

There is exactly that chart in the rulebook, but the listing is for fast vehicles and regular vehicles.

I am curious as to why you assume that because a vehicle moves as a fast vehicle it counts as being a fast vehicle for shooting. The two concepts aren't necessarily the same.

You are correct Yakface, it may move as though it were a fast vehicle but it would still use the table for Tank vehicles not fast vehicle for purposes of shooting.

This is similar to the Tau hammerhead vehicle mounted upgrade "Multi-tracker" which allows the hammerhead to fire its weapons using the fast-vehicle section of the table instead of the normal tank section. Of course, it does not allow the hammerhead to move as a fast vehicle, just to shoot like one.

The chart breaks it down to any vehicle that isn't a walker or fast and then Fast and then Walker.

When the over charge engines work the vehicle is a fast vehicle with the extra limitation of not being able to move over 18 inches.

If it was not intended to be able to shoot then it would have been worded something like 'The vehicle may move up to 18 inches.'

The concepts are blended together in the rule book, i'm not sure why you'd assume they'd be different.

Posted By blood angel on 06/26/2007 5:33 AM
The chart breaks it down to any vehicle that isn't a walker or fast and then Fast and then Walker.

When the over charge engines work the vehicle is a fast vehicle with the extra limitation of not being able to move over 18 inches.

If it was not intended to be able to shoot then it would have been worded something like 'The vehicle may move up to 18 inches.'

The concepts are blended together in the rule book, i'm not sure why you'd assume they'd be different.

Yes that is how the chart is broken down, but nothing in the over-charged engine rules states that the vehicle counts as being a Fast vehicle, just that it may MOVE as a fast vehicle.

Hellsguardian brings up a very good analogy. The Tau Multi-tracker allows vehicles to fire as if they are fast vehicles. Would you agree that Tau vehicles with this upgrade suddenly gain the ability to MOVE as a Fast vehicle as well?

Finally, I contend that if they wanted the over-charged engines to allow BA vehicles to shoot as a Fast Vehicle they would have worded the rule something like: "on a roll of 4-6 the vehicle counts as a Fast Vehicle that turn with a maximum move of 18 inches."

What constitutes a fast vehicle? It's movement rate.

Really this is just the case of it being a totally poorly writen and even more poorly edited excuse for a codex. So your contention of what they would have said if they meant X doesn't hold a lot of water. I've already pointed out that Dante is both a jump infantry and an infantry unit. Does that mean they intended for him to be both?

No. It's labelling as such makes it a 'Fast' vehicle. Is a turbo boosting bike all of a sudden a 'Fast' vehicle now because of it's movement rate? HA no.

In this case the BA vehicle is never labelled a Fast Vehicle merely that it can move as one up to a maximum distance of 18". Permissive ruleset.. this rule only allows the vehicle to MOVE as a fast vehicle, it does not allow it to fire as one.

The rules states quite clearly that it may MOVE as a Fast vehicle... not COUNT AS or FIRE AS.

I vote that it only MOVES as a fast vehicle with an 18" restriction.

Why would they word it that way if the vehicle was not intended to be able to shoot as a fast vehicle?  Wouldn't they have just said, 'may move up to 18 inches.'

They very well could have said "may move up to 18 inches" they very well could have said "the vehicle becomes fast for that turn but is limited to a max of 18 inches of movement" however they did neither. What they did say was that "it may move as a fast vehicle but is limited to 18 inches of movement". This limits its "fast" characteristics to movement only in exactly the same way as the tau upgrade limits their vehilces "fast" characteristics to shooting only. Seems straight forward to me.

As the others have stated, this is a fallacy. It only moves as a Fast vehicle, it doesn't become one.

Huh. My initial read was that this was intended to allow the Baal to move 12" and fire all guns. But the logic seems pretty clear; particularly with the multitracker comparison. Huh. Not as nice as I thought.

Bear in mind that BA are still primarily an assault army. Soooo, now they can easily use their rhinos to get in position to assault out of them on turn 2 by using the overcharged engines (and popping smoke). That's my thoughts behind why they did it this way, ie moving only, not for shooting.

Why even bother giving overcharged engines to the baal then...bah...(Granted, that's a tactics question...)

Wow, if the Baal suddenly became a Fast Vehicle, the first thing I would do is cry.

The second thing would be to start a BA army....

Sal.

I would say the RAW only applies to movement, not shooting. 

I fail to see how something in the TAU wargear codex has any rules application/clarification to something written in the BLOOD ANGLES codex wargear section.  The blood angels would need something similar to a multi-tracker as an upgrade to the vehicle that would allow it to fire like a fast vehicle.  The writers did not include any such wargear and the wording of the over-charged engines is specific to movement only. 

Over-charged engines still serve a purpose for the Baal (objective grabbing, getting out of LOS when shaken, push-back zone of control then fall back, etc..), but it doesn't benefit shooting, which perhaps would be over-powered for the price.

I did see the new turret for the pred at games day and it looked sweet.  I would absolutely include a minimum of 2 in a list if I played Blood Angels.

By RAW I would say yeah  over charged engines only apply to the movement speed. Which means if it makes it tests it can move 18 inchs and thats it but can;t shoot  unless it moved 6 or less inches.

I do however feel this is another case similar too the dark angles  with bolters and bolt pistols. the intent  ( i would think) was to let the baal move 12 and unload with all guns. just like the intent was to let the DA and even the BA tac marines shoot once then charge.

so in a Year or so when they put out an FaQ for the BA  this should get fixed :S .

 

I think the intent was to allow BA vehicles to move 18". That is an advantage all unto itself. Granted, it is more of an advantage for some vehicles than others.... but I see no reason to assume they 'meant' to let them shoot also.

Assault cannon range: 24". So, on turn 1, you probably won't have many targets anyway. Drive up to 18" to a better firing spot, instead of being limited to a 12" move.

Posted By coredump on 06/26/2007 1:59 PM
I think the intent was to allow BA vehicles to move 18". That is an advantage all unto itself. Granted, it is more of an advantage for some vehicles than others.... but I see no reason to assume they 'meant' to let them shoot also.

See I would agree with that if all the BA transports and tanks got the over charged engines; but only two out eight got them. The two that got it were the Rhino the standard transport and a tank with no option for anything higher than a str6 weapon. If it was just MENT to be a movement upgrade the other preds and the razorback would have also gotten them. As it stands the rules are just for movement but I do think the intent was to make them shoot like fast vehicles also. If not why even use the term fast vehicle, why not just give them up to an extra 6 inches of movement.

Why does only the rhino have self-repair, when the Razorback, Predator, and Vindicator are all built on the Rhino chassis? We just don't know what they were thinking. As I noted previously, however, the Baal still gets some use out of overcharged engines - it gets it's short-ranged assault cannon into action faster than would otherwise be possible.

Hmmmm.... I have changed my mind. I think the intent was to allow them to fire as a fast vehicle. (granted, that is not what it says, but...)

A fast vehicle only gets 2 advantages that I can see.

It can move 24"
It can shoot more guns when it moves 12+"

To say that the Rhino/Baal 'moves like a fast vehicle', but only moves 18" is an oxymoron. The *only* movement description a fast vehicle has is its ability to move 24"

(I will now hedge...)

OTOH, it is also likely that they meant it to only move extra, and just made a moronic comparison....

The wording "as if it were a fast vehicle" is what decides me. "As if it were" means specifically that it is not.

Thats how I read it. Otherwise it would specifically say that it is no longer class as tank but as a fast vehicle.
It doesn't therefore it is still a tank, but is allowed to move LIKE a fast vehicle.

I can see how both sides would come to their conclusions.  Seems to be another example of the short-sighted rules-writing habit of GW.  They wrote this rule with something in mind, but they failed (as ususal) to anticipate the inevitable questions when they make the rule as loose (interpretable) as this.  I can't really give GW writers the benefit of the doubt any more, they just don't seem to be very well educated in their own language and they always fail to see the other nuances of meaning.  Why they can't consistently write definitive and clear rules is beyond me...

As for this issue, I suspect that they may have wanted to give the vehicles with lower-strength weapons the ability to fire on the 'fast' move and I can see how people might interpret it this way, but as it is written I have to agree that they may not fire under the rules for fast vehicles.  Yes, movement does determine how many weapons a vehicle may fire, but it must also enter the chart under the appropriate category (fast, walker, etc).  In this case the rule says it may move as a fast vehicle (with 18" limitation) not that it is a fast vehicle when it uses boost.

Just my $.02

Ok, fluff nazi logic time. If ya don't want to hear "fluff" then please disregard this post. It is merely opinionated logical real world reasoning.

The crew of a Baal Pred is used to a set speed. They are used to doing things as they were trained to with regards to the tank in the first place. By equpping the vehicle with overcharged engines the crew may NOT be able to handle the speed AND keep the tank functioning at the same level... so the tank gets a burst of speed but still only manage to fire as they are normally trained.

But then there's the other side that could say that the crew were trained how to handle the burst of speed therefore should be able to fire on the run regardless of how fast they are boosted.

Now my question is (and I am surprised Yak hasn't asked this yet) how would YOU play it if your opponent was a BA player playing a BAAL pred with Over charged engines?

A. Allow the tank to move up to 12" and fire every weapon on the tank (all defensive no? I have not seen the new rules but the earlier Baal had twin donkey guns and some sponson heavy flamers?)
B. NOT allow the vehicle to move more than 6" in order to fire.

Personally I would allow the BA player to use the over charged engines 'fast' label to fire in a friendly game but in a tourney I would have the Judges or Tourney organizer make a judgement call as I feel that where this particular judgement would have to come from to garner some sort of consistency.

Posted By Narlix on 06/26/2007 1:09 PM

By RAW I would say yeah  over charged engines only apply to the movement speed. Which means if it makes it tests it can move 18 inchs and thats it but can;t shoot  unless it moved 6 or less inches.

I do however feel this is another case similar too the dark angles  with bolters and bolt pistols. the intent  ( i would think) was to let the baal move 12 and unload with all guns. just like the intent was to let the DA and even the BA tac marines shoot once then charge.

so in a Year or so when they put out an FaQ for the BA  this should get fixed :S .

 

You imply that DA's and BA's wth bolters and bolt pistols cannot shoot the pistols then charge.

Models armed with rapid fire weapons that shoot in that turn can't assault according to the rulebook. The question then is, are you still armed with a bolter when you fire your pistol?

BTW, my Baals all have heavy bolter sponsons, so almost always have a target in range on turn 1.

DaIronGob, maybe they should use the guy that trains the guy on the landspeeder also teach the predator gunners their trick of being able to shoot when having those bursts of speed.

Wow, yeah, I hadn't fully processed that before.

"Models carrying rapid fire weapons that wish to charge into close combat in the Assault phase may not fire in the Shooting phase..." (BGB p.29)

However:

"Models carrying pistol weapons can fire them once in the Shooting phase and still charge into close combat in the assault phase..." (BGB, p.29, two paragraphs below the first quote)

You can see right where the difference in wording between the two rules causes a train wreck in applying the rules. Two rules of equal specificity negating each other, anyone care to take a stab at resolving this one?