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Made in us
Stalwart Strike Squad Grey Knight





Well here's another twist to the debate...

if Heed is used "At the start of your turn", does that mean it can be used more than once simultaneously because it is not resolved during a specific phase, and thus is not restricted by the Strategic Discipline Matched Play Rule (Rulebook pg. 215)?

And for those who argue "The start of your turn is the Movement phase"...

For comparison, there are other stratagems like Tactical Flexibility (Grey Knights Codex pg. 98), which are resolved specifically "at the start of any of your Movement phases." Why the difference in language "Start of your movement phase" vs. "Start of your turn"?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/24 20:54:21


 
   
Made in nz
Unshakeable Grey Knight Land Raider Pilot




Good point.

They even clarify in the Matched Play rule itself that "At the end of your turn" does not take place as part of a phase. So I would think this applies to 'the start' also.
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




There is literally a massive thread on whether the start of your turn is the movement phase on you make the call. I think baconcatbug would have an aneurysm if he saw us starting the whole debate from ground zero right here.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/24 22:13:06


 
   
Made in de
Youth wracked by nightmarish visions





Do you guys think this list might work post-FAQ?

+Draigo
+Nemesis Dreadknight Grandmaster (Sword, Psycannon, Psilencer)

+5 Strikes (Falchions+Bolters)
+5 Strikes (Falchions+Bolters)
+10 Strikes (Falchions+Bolters)

+Doomglaive Dreadnought (Psycannon, Stormbolter, Doomglaive)
+Doomglaive Dreadnought (Psycannon, Stormbolter, Doomglaive)

+Stormraven Gunship (Twin Lascannon, Twin Multimelta, Two Stormstrike Missles, Two Hurricane Bolters)

+Stormraven Gunship (Twin Lascannon, Twin Multimelta, Two Stormstrike Missles, Two Hurricane Bolters)


5 Strikes and 1 Dreadnought in each Raven (Strikes are to avoid the Dread going boom when the Raven dies), Draigo in either one to minimize drops, 10 Strikes and the GMDK in reserves.

T1 Ravens speed forwards, Draigo gets out and gates in behind them for rerolls. The double Ravens buffed up should give me a decent enough alphastrike, 12 extremely high damage/strength/rend shots to annihilate one or two of the main threats to the ravens, and 48 bolter shots to punch through a screen for the T2 followup.
I'm also thinking of either DSing the GMDK into my deployment zone T1, or literally just starting him on the board and walk up behind the Ravens and start plinking away at something. Maybe he could even draw some fire away from the Ravens?

T2, at least one Raven will be dead, guaranteed. However, if the alphastrike was semi successful I doubt that my opponent will have the firepower to kill an entire second Raven AND a Dreadnought.
That should put me in a good position for charging on T2.: 2 Doomglaives and Draigo will absolutely wreck anything they come across in CC. No arguments there. 5-10 Leftover strikes can also add some punch or just try to tie down dangerous shooty units. The dreadknight will also be in my opponents face now, another threat he has to deal with ASAP.
AND then the 10 Strikes can come in and wipe another screen unit, or even try hunting T8 Tanks with S5 AP-1.
Hopefully by that point I should have tied down/overwhelmed his main damage dealers and can then focus on mopping up. I'm assuming the Ravens are both dead by the end of T2, so in case either survives its a win for my game plan.

The whole gimmick behind the list is that my opponent should hopefully tunnelvision on the Ravens being the main threat of the list, and then mistakedly underestimate the hitting power of the rest of the force.
Obviously the army is really weak for objective play, but honestly thats always been a weakness throughout 8th for GKs.

Of course, the main problem: What happens if I dont go first? Problems and dangers

A. Getting Nuked by Shooting on T1:
Depending on my Opponent and Terrain it might be possible to hide the Ravens out of LOS; additionally, say I play against something like Nids: I can simply sit out of Range of their dangerous weapons, and Stormravens with their 40" move can easily close the gap.
Now obviously, if he's packing 48" it will be really tough, but honestly when have GKs not been screwed if they didnt go first in 8th?
B. Having no Screen for the Ravens:
IMO this DS nerf, in some ways, also helped us out. I essentially dont need a screen. I dont need to worry about not going first, and then watching 4 Flyrants or 20 Scions with melta pop in 9" away from my extremely expensive models and tear them to shreds. In a certain way, we are more "durable" now.

Now I know this list is still gonna get its butt handed to it in general, GKs are just that bad.
BUT I think this might be a viable way to play around the DS nerf. No, it wont go stomping tournies or anything, but I think its a pretty decent list that, in the hands of a skilled player, could make many opponents sweat to win.

Your thoughts, my fellow Sons of Titan?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/25 12:15:15


BOW before your GOAT-OVERLORD!...Goaverlord?...Goaterlord?...eh, whatever, just bring me some sticks to chew on. 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




Phoenix, AZ, USA

It’ll work once, maybe twice, then you’ll need a new strat.

SJ

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




What are the advantages and disadvantages of fielding five and ten model units of Strike Squads? Thanks.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




BillyN831 wrote:
What are the advantages and disadvantages of fielding five and ten model units of Strike Squads? Thanks.

10 man squads lower your drop count and make more efficient use of the Strategems, and the 5 man squads have more chances to charge into melee and grab objectives, along with getting an extra Sergeant for an extra attack.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Stalwart Strike Squad Grey Knight





Biggest selling point to 5-man squads is the extra psychic power.
Biggest selling point to 10-man squads is the bolter stratagem.

If you want to take more 5-man squads but are restricted by detachment limitations, you can always turn your PAGK units into 10-man squads and then combat squad them during deployment. That's how you take 30 interceptors across 6 units in a Battalion, which only allows for 3 Fast Attack choices.

   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




Hello,
I am building a GK Army and am nearly finished with my theoretical 2000p.

But I got following questions:

1. Many of the HQ have abilities, which give a Bonus to "friendly GK units in xyz distance". Does that apply to the giving HQ itself as well??

2. I intend to play a little Inquisition detachment, too. But I dislike the monkey miniature/ idea of the Jokaero Weaponsmith. Does anyone know a cooler looking miniatute to replace that?


Thank you for helping me!
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




As to question1 the answer is yes. A model is always considered within its own aura.
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




Amaurosis wrote:
Hello,
I am building a GK Army and am nearly finished with my theoretical 2000p.

But I got following questions:

1. Many of the HQ have abilities, which give a Bonus to "friendly GK units in xyz distance". Does that apply to the giving HQ itself as well??

2. I intend to play a little Inquisition detachment, too. But I dislike the monkey miniature/ idea of the Jokaero Weaponsmith. Does anyone know a cooler looking miniatute to replace that?


Thank you for helping me!


2. You can convert a tech-priest enginseer:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Astra-Militarum-Tech-Priest-Enginseer

Just need something to be the money's gun instead of the axe he's holding.
   
Made in us
Stalwart Strike Squad Grey Knight





Back on the subject of Heed the Prognosticars:

(1) Can it be used more than once simultaneously since "start of your turn" does not reference a specific phase?
(2) Can it be used to improve the invulnerable save of a unit to 2+, in combination with Sanctuary (or multiple Heeds, if #1 is to be allowed)?

I've made some preliminary email inquiries to Frontline Gaming, and also to tournament organizers of two upcoming ITC tournaments this summer. Thought some of you might be interested in their rulings. To be clear, I'm aware these are not official GW rulings. Still, if some of you are interested in the TO perspectives on this issue, then here's some:

Frontline Gaming

Spoiler:
(1) "No, the start of the turn isn't an exception to the restriction. The only time you get around this is with strats used before the game begins."
(2) No comment.


The Beef & Wing Brawl

Spoiler:
(1) "Only during pregame can a strat be used more than once."
(2) "As for the invo save we have determined it cant be modified past 3++"


Warhammer ATC Tournament

Spoiler:
(1) "No, the start of a player turn is also the start of the movement phase."
(2) "I don't believe there is any technical reason why it wouldn't work, although some tournaments have ruled against it working based upon the apparent intent to limit it to a 3++ in one of the Stratagems, so it is possible that ITC MAY limit it before the event rules cutoff."


Thoughts
(1) Well that's a unanimous response to #1. I respect it, but I'm still scratching my head about... if the "start of your turn" is equivalent to the movement phase, how then is "end of a battle round" not a Morale phase? Yet in the Strategic Discipline rule "end of a battle round" is referenced as an exception to the rule.
(2) Responses show there's a 50/50 split on this. Not a great sample size, though it suggests the issue is still up in the air and you should probably confer with your opponent before a game if you were planning to use the Sanctuary+Heed combo for a 2++.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/05/26 06:23:41


 
   
Made in us
Unshakeable Grey Knight Land Raider Pilot




They haven't really read the rulebook restriction on Stratagem use then have they. As I stated before, it clarifies that the 'end of the turn' doesn't count as part of a phase, so why would the start of a turn?

Seems like a kneejerk reaction to an 'overpowered ability' they never considered before.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Thanks!
   
Made in dk
Sneaky Sniper Drone




Has anyone tried/ had any luck with one of the following.
Spearhead detachment of 3 Dreadknights
Air wing detachment of 3 stormtalons with missiles

I'm trying to decide what my last 700 points (in my 2k list) should go to?

Cheers
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




Phoenix, AZ, USA

Thenord wrote:
Has anyone tried/ had any luck with one of the following.
Spearhead detachment of 3 Dreadknights
Air wing detachment of 3 stormtalons with missiles

I'm trying to decide what my last 700 points (in my 2k list) should go to?

Cheers

Your last 700pts need to go to an AM Battalion, for the CP.

SJ

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




Thenord wrote:
Has anyone tried/ had any luck with one of the following.
Spearhead detachment of 3 Dreadknights
Air wing detachment of 3 stormtalons with missiles

I'm trying to decide what my last 700 points (in my 2k list) should go to?

Cheers


It's really hard to say without seeing what you already have in your list. Flippancy aside you may be better off with a cheap CP battery (IG/AM) and just putting the rest of your points into some of your other detachments.
   
Made in us
Implaccable Grey Knight Paladin




San Diego, CA

Thenord wrote:
Has anyone tried/ had any luck with one of the following.
Spearhead detachment of 3 Dreadknights
Air wing detachment of 3 stormtalons with missiles

I'm trying to decide what my last 700 points (in my 2k list) should go to?

Cheers

Instead of a spearhead, I would do a supreme command of grandmaster dreadknights. I did something similar with stormravens instead of talons and had 3 squads of interceptors as well, it worked ok.
With the points you have left, if you have the models I would either reccomend the above poster’s suggestion of AM or you could put your GMDKs in a battalion and add 3 strike squads to deepstrike on objectives. You could also double down on what you have and add more flyers or dreadknights

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
 
   
Made in dk
Sneaky Sniper Drone




Atm. I have: Voldus, 2 GMDK, 5 paladins, 10 SS.
I was thinking about adding another 10 SS and a land raider, but I got the impression that they kinda suck?
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




As they are now land raiders aren't that good. Maybe come chapter approved 2018 things will change.
   
Made in pt
Regular Dakkanaut





Uh, dunno if it was discussed but FW is discontinuing the Doomglaive dreadnaught model, I wonder what exactly are they gonna do for GK in the IA volume


 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




My guess is GW is going to let GK have a slow and lingering death.

I just played a game against Harlies and it wasn't pretty. It seemed like every Harley had a fusion pistol S8 AP -4 d6. They also had at least a 4++ Armor. Even the vehicles had 4++ and were open topped. So he would put 5 fusion pistols in them and just whale away at me. Although the game was fun it was an excercise in futility for me. I was just trying to get moral victories by killing key pieces. ITC score was 36-7. Also played against a Custodes army, I lost 38-4.
   
Made in us
Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp






Dimmamar

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
My guess is GW is going to let GK have a slow and lingering death.


I've started playing with my Daemons more and more, and GK less and less. Every time I think about GK I feel a little seed of bitterness sprout to anguish and I wonder why I am betrayed.
Every time I play with my Daemons I feel like I can do what I want to do, and succeed, and feel powerful on the battlefield.

This is what the traitor legions felt in the Heresy--betrayal, power, a newfound purpose.

This is how GK players will fall to Chaos.


Also, I think DW Primaris will be a good choice to supplement Ravens and GMDKs.

40k Resources

LVO 2017 - Best GK Player

The Grimdark Future 8500 1000 1500 4500

"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21 
   
Made in nz
Unshakeable Grey Knight Land Raider Pilot




Rob Cruddance has admitted GK are 'in a bad place' on a livestream (I forget which) and at the same time confirmed that they will be reassessed in CA 2018.

Just need to be patient a little longer, paint your models, play your other armies etc etc. If we still get no justice after that, in spite of all the voices of the internet talking so loudly about it, thats the time to sell off your GK armies
   
Made in us
Guarded Grey Knight Terminator






Just hope they don't fail whale at it and actually make us competitive... Or at least decent.

"Glory in our suffering, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope"
-Paul of Tarsus

If my post seems goofy, assume I am posting from my phone and the autocorrect elf in my phone is drunk again 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




The only reason I'm staying with my GK army is I'm too cheap to start another army (although I did buy some AM and Armigers after splitting the Forgebane box with him).
   
Made in us
Terrifying Wraith






What are you guys playing instead of your GK at the moment?

I have a purely paladin gk force that I've actually had great success with in my small gaming group but looking to make a move to start a new project.

Just curious what my fellow Brothers of Titan are rolling.

 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




I've added a aux detachment of warglaives. I'm hoping to try out an army with a GMDK, Stormtalon, Stormraven and 2 warglaives mixed with a Captain, Librarian and 4 units of strikers at 2K. I'm hoping that the large number of big bases will occupy my opponent while the strikers hold objectives. The capt stays in back with 1 or 2 of the strikers to double their smite range (another MW or 2 are always welcome).
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight







I have a 10 man group of Paladins, my group plays without the latest restrictions, I think some don't even know it exists tbh because a lot of us just use the Imperium and Chaos keyword for armies still. The rest of the list is a Knight Crusader and his Scion footmen.

It's a pretty bad list.

 SHUPPET wrote:

wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I've shelved my Grey Knights for the time being and am playing Sisters of Battle.
   
 
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