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2018/04/17 12:30:55
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
Azuza001 wrote: So what is the viability of dsing 30 tzaangors and getting that 9" charge off?
Not very good if you do it like that.
Instead:
Reserve your bomb and a big Rubric blob.
First turn drop your Tzaangors in your deployment zone. buff them to hell to survive one turn of shooting (or use an extra 30-strong blob).
Second turn drop in the Rubrics and the termie sorcerer. Use Dark Matter crystal to send your blob in the front. Use the rubrics to clear the chaff away, warptime your tzaangors with the termie sorc (use stratagem, high magister and familiar for a +4 to cast) and then proceed to slaughter.
Except you can't warp time a unit after using the crystal on it :(
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/17 12:31:22
2018/04/17 13:05:25
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
Can you do that? I was under the impression that you can't warp time something that the crystal moved anymore than you could warptime something deep striking now.
2018/04/17 13:28:05
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
This has to do with the "arrive in the battlefield" term. If your unit started the game on the field (or dropped in a previous turn) then a case could be done that the Dark Matter Crystal does not make them "arrive to the battlefield". Instead it says "remove the unit and place it again anywhere within 9"."
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2018/04/17 13:42:16
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
topaxygouroun i wrote: This has to do with the "arrive in the battlefield" term. If your unit started the game on the field (or dropped in a previous turn) then a case could be done that the Dark Matter Crystal does not make them "arrive to the battlefield". Instead it says "remove the unit and place it again anywhere within 9"."
Units that are removed and then returned to the battlefield count as having arrived from reserves that turn, there is a FAQ on this.
2018/04/17 14:08:34
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
An 8 inch charge with the ability to reroll shouldn’t be that hard to make. With gaze of fate and the cp reroll it should be about a 75 percent success
2018/04/17 15:04:52
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
I am just not sure I want to drop 100$ on 30 tzaangors to do this, before it was a solid strat but now I have to wait until turn 2 and then not have used my rerolls. Wouldn't 20 inferno bolter shots simply be better for the cost since you don't have to worry about the charge? It's about the same points cost.
2018/04/17 15:44:41
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
Azuza001 wrote: I am just not sure I want to drop 100$ on 30 tzaangors to do this, before it was a solid strat but now I have to wait until turn 2 and then not have used my rerolls. Wouldn't 20 inferno bolter shots simply be better for the cost since you don't have to worry about the charge? It's about the same points cost.
Tzaangors have never been about killing things. It's always been about tying stuff in Close combat AND killing things. 10 Rubrics might cost the same as 30 Tzaangors, but they don't want to be in CC and can't shoot a second time, contrary to Tzaangors who can fight twice for 2 CP (which are now plentiful thanks to the FAQ). Tzaangors are also more durable for their cost (since Morale is so easily mitigated.
I've been dropping Tzaangors via Webway ever since our 'dex came out, and almost never used Warptime to do so. I think I've only failed my charge once (against Sisters), and there were enough Tzaangors left in the following turn to do their job.
TL;DR : Tzaangors are still way better than Rubrics, and our best asset.
Deffskullz desert scavengers
Thousand Sons
2018/04/17 16:06:54
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
I will look into it more but thanks Nym, I was about to just write them off completely. And I guess that is true, getting an 8" charge off on 2d6 with rerolls as options should be doable. Now the question is do you take a shaman with them? I was thinking shaman with crystal and 30 tzaangors, deep strike the tzaangors then move the shaman and a squad of rubrics up. Rubrics lay down cover fire against something else ,shaman boosts the blob, and the blob goes to town. Or would a deamon prince just be better because it's a deamon prince.
2018/04/17 16:15:55
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
Making my 10 man flamer squad alpha legion and use the infiltrate option or stick them in a rhino and warptime the rhino up?
Well with alpha legion your spending command points to do it, with the rhino you could take 2 squads of 5, cast glamor of tzeench on it, warptime it for a large move, then pop smoke for -2 to hit. This also helps you get more command points and gives you 2 mini smites for the loss of 2 flamers. I would go with the rhino, I mean -2 to hit? That's going to have to draw fire because of the payload is scary but it's going to soak up the wounds easily.
2018/04/17 17:19:08
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
pismakron wrote: Tzaangors are still viable. Just give them a brayhorn and run them across the field. You will end up charging something on your second turn
Or you will end up removing them from the table during the first enemy's shooting phase. I personally would bet on it .
2018/04/17 19:42:27
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
Yeah, if I am going to go with the tzaangors blob it's still deep strike and charge, just on turn 2 which isn't a big deal. I see deep striking shifting from "alpha strike" to "supporting measures" and "enemy mistake capitalization". That's easy enough to move to, we are still a force designed around psychic powers and mid ranged shooting.
2018/04/17 20:38:57
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
RedEcho wrote: So assuming the new beta rules are in play, what’s our strongest list at 2000points?
I don't know what's our strongest list, since it mostly depends on how much "soup" you want in your army.
I personally run 2 Batallions (1 TS, 1Tz Daemons), and it's working great. With the FAQ I'm going to run my Rubrics in Rhinos again and drop my Scarabs for Obliterators (Aux. detachment).
My MVPs are usually Defiler (buffed with Prescience and Flickering Flames) and my WAR-Lord of Change with Impossible Robe and -1 damage trait (and Warp Surge for that sweet 2++).
It's quite a weak list against Hordes though...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/17 20:39:25
Deffskullz desert scavengers
Thousand Sons
2018/04/19 17:55:02
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
I have a tournament coming up this weekend and would like some feedback on my list options.
We are playing 1500 pts, either 4x6 or 4x4 tables depending on how many will be there. To is using new rules, allowing dark crystal to work first turn like above suggests.
List one
Spoiler:
+ No Force Org Slot +
Relics of the Thousand Sons (1 Relic)
+ HQ +
Ahriman: Glamour of Tzeentch, Prescience, Warptime
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch: Flickering Flames, Helm of the Third Eye, Malefic talon, Warptime, Wings
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour: 6. High Magister, Dark Matter Crystal, Death Hex, Familiar, Force stave, Inferno Combi-bolter, Prescience, Warlord
I also could take a predator or two, or a hellbrute (fist and scourge loadout), a helldrake, 2 rhinos, and / or tzaangor shaman. That's about the extent of my Tsons. Any help would be appreciated. I really want to make tsons my tournament list, at least for the semi competitive ones I go to.
2018/04/23 02:50:56
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
Wanted to give an update, ended up using the 1st of my lists at the tournament, went 2 and 1, was a blast and the list really was quite effective. I am going to spoiler the details if people just want to read what my thoughts are and not read the mess of my memory.
Spoiler:
1st game was vs Orks and it went well, only lost a few rubrics, my deamon prince, the tzaangors, and the rhino. Tzaangor bomb is still quite effective and easy to get that 8 with rerolls from either CP's or Gaze of Fate. Only thing the ork player had left when we called it was 18 boys and his psycher.
2nd game was vs another Tson army, this one was Magnus, 2 Deamon Princes, a Land Raider, 2 five man Rubric squads, and a small group of tzaangors. I lost this one, but it was a brutal battle. Land raider had 6 wounds left, 1 deamons prince had 1 wound left, Magnus was at 11 or 12 I think for wounds, and there were 4 rubrics left when I called it on his side. I just didn't have the ability to deal with such a monster based force, and I failed a couple of key spots (18 tzaangor attacks did 7 wounds to the dp first round of fighting, and 0 after I used 2 cp to try again, DP failed his charge vs rubrics, needed a 6 got a 3). To be fair I forgot some of my rules, like eatherstride letting you reroll failed charges. Could have gone different if those points had been different.
3rd match was again against tsons (lots of tsons decided to play today lol) and it was a slaughter. He had 2 laz preds, arhiman, a deamon prince, 9 enlighten in one squad, a second of 3, a shaman, and like 5 five man Rubric squads. It was a slaughter, I got first turn and my dp flew up and killed the squad of 3, my tzaangors hit his flank and killed some rubrics, defiler killed a predator with its first round of shooting (I don't care what people may say, but defiler + prescience + reroll failed hit and wound stratagem = dead everything typically), and my rubrics moved up. He tried to counter assault, sending the deamon prince into the tzaangors(big mistake, giving me reroll to hit helped to kill that dp), and unloaded on my vortex beast and deamon prince, killing the prince. However he brought the vortex beast down to 6 wounds, so next turn I move forward again, mutalith shoots the flare and kills 5 rubrics (got to love those 5 man squads, more mortal wounds for all to play with) tzaangors kill the deamon prince, my guys kill more rubrics so each squad is at 2-3 guys in it, and I secure the objective (hold the center of the table a kind of King of the hill). His 2nd turn he moves forward with his other pred, drops his large enlighten in by the defiler, shoots everything he can at it and brings it down to 6 wounds (I got lucky, 4 laz cannon shots hit, 4 wounds, and I roll 3 sixes for my invulnerable save) so he tries to charge it to finish it off. It doesn't work. My 3rd turn I cast death hex onto enlighten, mutalith (which is at 2 wounds now) blasts again, defiler crushes all the enlighten that are stuck in cc with it (when they don't have an invulnerable save those scourge attacks just wipe them out) and my opponent concedes as he only has his pred, arhiman, and 6-8 total rubrics left and I still have most my army (granted some of it was about to die) and I had the center of the table on lock down. He wasn't gutting in to get the center from my 20 rubrics + arhiman + terminator sorcerer + rhino of distraction.
So my thoughts.
Everyone did really well for the most part. I am going to definitely drop the terminator sorcerer from the list though, at 140 pts I can get another ground DP for just 16 more points which would have been infinitely better than the sorcerer was. Had I done that I may have stood a better chance in the game I lost. Also the idea of 2 squads of 10 so I get those beautiful soul reaper cannons vs 4 squads of 5 for more mini smites, it's an interesting trade. I don't know what I think about it but those 5 man squads were durable for sure, just not vs a vortex beast.
Mvp would be the defiler with honorable mention to the vortex beast. In the first game he killed a truck, some lootas, a pain boy, and a mad doc, second game he did all the wounds basically to the land raider and held magnus up for a turn, more than I expected since he was my only anti tank and was getting gunned for. Finally last game killing the predator and enlighten while getting ready to kill the 2nd pred, it was nasty business.
Least effective would be my sorcerer in term. He did kill a ork boss first game with infernal gaze (look into my eyes), just made magnus mad 2nd, and did get the death hex off 3rd when I needed it, but for his cost like I said, should just use another DP so I can do all that and kick ass in cc.
2018/04/23 04:02:23
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
Azuza001 wrote: Wanted to give an update, ended up using the 1st of my lists at the tournament, went 2 and 1, was a blast and the list really was quite effective. I am going to spoiler the details if people just want to read what my thoughts are and not read the mess of my memory.
Spoiler:
1st game was vs Orks and it went well, only lost a few rubrics, my deamon prince, the tzaangors, and the rhino. Tzaangor bomb is still quite effective and easy to get that 8 with rerolls from either CP's or Gaze of Fate. Only thing the ork player had left when we called it was 18 boys and his psycher.
2nd game was vs another Tson army, this one was Magnus, 2 Deamon Princes, a Land Raider, 2 five man Rubric squads, and a small group of tzaangors. I lost this one, but it was a brutal battle. Land raider had 6 wounds left, 1 deamons prince had 1 wound left, Magnus was at 11 or 12 I think for wounds, and there were 4 rubrics left when I called it on his side. I just didn't have the ability to deal with such a monster based force, and I failed a couple of key spots (18 tzaangor attacks did 7 wounds to the dp first round of fighting, and 0 after I used 2 cp to try again, DP failed his charge vs rubrics, needed a 6 got a 3). To be fair I forgot some of my rules, like eatherstride letting you reroll failed charges. Could have gone different if those points had been different.
3rd match was again against tsons (lots of tsons decided to play today lol) and it was a slaughter. He had 2 laz preds, arhiman, a deamon prince, 9 enlighten in one squad, a second of 3, a shaman, and like 5 five man Rubric squads. It was a slaughter, I got first turn and my dp flew up and killed the squad of 3, my tzaangors hit his flank and killed some rubrics, defiler killed a predator with its first round of shooting (I don't care what people may say, but defiler + prescience + reroll failed hit and wound stratagem = dead everything typically), and my rubrics moved up. He tried to counter assault, sending the deamon prince into the tzaangors(big mistake, giving me reroll to hit helped to kill that dp), and unloaded on my vortex beast and deamon prince, killing the prince. However he brought the vortex beast down to 6 wounds, so next turn I move forward again, mutalith shoots the flare and kills 5 rubrics (got to love those 5 man squads, more mortal wounds for all to play with) tzaangors kill the deamon prince, my guys kill more rubrics so each squad is at 2-3 guys in it, and I secure the objective (hold the center of the table a kind of King of the hill). His 2nd turn he moves forward with his other pred, drops his large enlighten in by the defiler, shoots everything he can at it and brings it down to 6 wounds (I got lucky, 4 laz cannon shots hit, 4 wounds, and I roll 3 sixes for my invulnerable save) so he tries to charge it to finish it off. It doesn't work. My 3rd turn I cast death hex onto enlighten, mutalith (which is at 2 wounds now) blasts again, defiler crushes all the enlighten that are stuck in cc with it (when they don't have an invulnerable save those scourge attacks just wipe them out) and my opponent concedes as he only has his pred, arhiman, and 6-8 total rubrics left and I still have most my army (granted some of it was about to die) and I had the center of the table on lock down. He wasn't gutting in to get the center from my 20 rubrics + arhiman + terminator sorcerer + rhino of distraction.
So my thoughts.
Everyone did really well for the most part. I am going to definitely drop the terminator sorcerer from the list though, at 140 pts I can get another ground DP for just 16 more points which would have been infinitely better than the sorcerer was. Had I done that I may have stood a better chance in the game I lost. Also the idea of 2 squads of 10 so I get those beautiful soul reaper cannons vs 4 squads of 5 for more mini smites, it's an interesting trade. I don't know what I think about it but those 5 man squads were durable for sure, just not vs a vortex beast.
Mvp would be the defiler with honorable mention to the vortex beast. In the first game he killed a truck, some lootas, a pain boy, and a mad doc, second game he did all the wounds basically to the land raider and held magnus up for a turn, more than I expected since he was my only anti tank and was getting gunned for. Finally last game killing the predator and enlighten while getting ready to kill the 2nd pred, it was nasty business.
Least effective would be my sorcerer in term. He did kill a ork boss first game with infernal gaze (look into my eyes), just made magnus mad 2nd, and did get the death hex off 3rd when I needed it, but for his cost like I said, should just use another DP so I can do all that and kick ass in cc.
Thanks for the battle report - can you clarify for "dp flew up and killed the squad of 3, my tzaangors hit his flank and killed some rubrics, " How you charged his flank first turn with the new deepstrike rules and got your deamon prince in? You can only warptime one unit and most deployments are 24 inches... Was is an 18 inch deploy and you warptimed the tzangs and the prince hit a 7 inch charge?
2018/04/23 12:49:51
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
Deamon prince with eatherstride warlord trait, its first move forward was 12+4 from advanced, then warptime which made it another 16, easy charge.
Dark matter crystal still works first turn, like da jump. I started the tzaangors on the field and just popped the crystal to put them 9" out, with the breyhorn that's an 8" charge.
2018/04/23 13:09:01
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
Azuza001 wrote: Deamon prince with eatherstride warlord trait, its first move forward was 12+4 from advanced, then warptime which made it another 16, easy charge.
Dark matter crystal still works first turn, like da jump. I started the tzaangors on the field and just popped the crystal to put them 9" out, with the breyhorn that's an 8" charge.
Awesome thanks
2018/04/23 14:46:15
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
A better point of something I noticed while playing, the tzaangors. I have 19 of them, (1 became a shaman with conversion work) and I never got all 19 in combat at once. Normally it was 10-12 making the charge and getting to attack due to pile ins and stuff. What I was thinking was 15-20 would be the sweet spot for these guys. 30 of them sounds great but you have to deal with actually being able to place such a large blob, and not all 30 will probably ever get in range to fight, so all your doing is paying for extra wounds with no real bonus other than needing more room to place them (which is not a bonus)
So yeah, count me in the group of "don't max the tzaangors". It's not worth it.
2018/04/23 18:03:52
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
So, i was planning on revamping my Space Marines, but, then i remembered that i wanted to progress my Thousand Sons from 30k to 40k!
I keep getting drawn back to Rubric marines with varying results, but, i'd like some quick glances over this list if possible! It is aimed at being competitive, but, i'm just not sure how it's going to pan out. Got a 1 detachment of each type limit.
Spoiler:
Battalion -
Ahriman on Disc - Warlord, Death Hex, Diabolic Strength, Glamour of Tzeentch.
Exalted Sorcerer on Disc - DMC, Prescience, Weaver of Fates, 2 power swords.
Cultists x15.
Rubric Marines x5 - bolters, axe, Temporal Manipulation.
Rubric Marines x5 - 4x flamers, axe, Temporal Manipulation.
Rubric Marines x10 - bolters, Soulreaper, Weaver of Fates
Rhino x2 - x2 combi bolter.
Supreme Command
Daemon Prince - wings, x2 talon, bolter, warptime, infernal gateway.
Daemon Prince - helm of third eye, wings, x2 talon, bolter, Warptime, gaze of fate.
Daemon Prince - wings, x2 talon, bolter, gift of chaos, infernal gaze.
Magnus - Death hex, Doombolt, weaver of fates.
This list gives me mobility, a fair amount of "tough" threats and a lot of psychic. With only 9-10 drops, i would hope to get the first turn roll off advantage and decide from there. Most of the things that can still deep strike won't really worry me too much, so i can always opt to go 2nd if i win the roll off - biggest issue though is then keeping Magnus out of LoS turn1.
Thoughts on dropping the flamer squad and 1 rhino for 5 terminators to use the crystal and warptime on turn one, instead of potentially the 10 man rubric squad? If i did this, i'd swap the roles of the 5 and 10 man rubric squads around. Issues then arise from the terminators being a good target for 2 dmg weapons.
Flyers would be a turn 1 problem, but, after than should be manageable via smites and charging princes. Gun lines would have 1 turn to kill everything before the princes hit their lines.
Is Magnus even worth it?
Thanks!
2018/04/23 18:13:52
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
You need things to clear hordes out. Otherwise all your psychic might will get wasted eating chaff. Magnus will soak up turn 1 firepower and die so you’ll have to make sure the rest of your army can overcome that
2018/04/23 18:26:47
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
demontalons wrote: You need things to clear hordes out. Otherwise all your psychic might will get wasted eating chaff. Magnus will soak up turn 1 firepower and die so you’ll have to make sure the rest of your army can overcome that
Was thinking that's where the large amounts of bolter fire, maybe warptiming the flamer unit into range, smites and the 1st turn would come into play. If the majority of my force is mid table and killed all the screens turn 1, then even if Magnus dies in the following turn, i'm pretty much setup to get past any remaining screens with the princes.
That said, if you were just sticking to Thousand Sons, what would you use for horde clearance? If i'm honest, the most screens i'm expecting to see if a handful of scouts, fire warrior spam and guard infantry. Killing the scouts wont be a problem, and the rest i feel the survive rate vs them is in my favour.
2018/04/23 18:28:36
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
Kdash wrote: So, i was planning on revamping my Space Marines, but, then i remembered that i wanted to progress my Thousand Sons from 30k to 40k!
I keep getting drawn back to Rubric marines with varying results, but, i'd like some quick glances over this list if possible! It is aimed at being competitive, but, i'm just not sure how it's going to pan out. Got a 1 detachment of each type limit.
Spoiler:
Battalion -
Ahriman on Disc - Warlord, Death Hex, Diabolic Strength, Glamour of Tzeentch.
Exalted Sorcerer on Disc - DMC, Prescience, Weaver of Fates, 2 power swords.
Cultists x15.
Rubric Marines x5 - bolters, axe, Temporal Manipulation.
Rubric Marines x5 - 4x flamers, axe, Temporal Manipulation.
Rubric Marines x10 - bolters, Soulreaper, Weaver of Fates
Rhino x2 - x2 combi bolter.
Supreme Command
Daemon Prince - wings, x2 talon, bolter, warptime, infernal gateway.
Daemon Prince - helm of third eye, wings, x2 talon, bolter, Warptime, gaze of fate.
Daemon Prince - wings, x2 talon, bolter, gift of chaos, infernal gaze.
Magnus - Death hex, Doombolt, weaver of fates.
This list gives me mobility, a fair amount of "tough" threats and a lot of psychic. With only 9-10 drops, i would hope to get the first turn roll off advantage and decide from there. Most of the things that can still deep strike won't really worry me too much, so i can always opt to go 2nd if i win the roll off - biggest issue though is then keeping Magnus out of LoS turn1.
Thoughts on dropping the flamer squad and 1 rhino for 5 terminators to use the crystal and warptime on turn one, instead of potentially the 10 man rubric squad? If i did this, i'd swap the roles of the 5 and 10 man rubric squads around. Issues then arise from the terminators being a good target for 2 dmg weapons.
Flyers would be a turn 1 problem, but, after than should be manageable via smites and charging princes. Gun lines would have 1 turn to kill everything before the princes hit their lines.
Is Magnus even worth it?
Thanks!
Magnus is a beast but will get targeted so fair warning there.
I wouldn't make arhiman my warlord I would give that the one of the Deamon Princes, give that DP the Eatherstride trait, warptime, and demonic strength, then run it straight at the closest enemy target you can turn 1. This does 2 things, it puts something straight in their face not magnus that they must deal with and if you don't get first turn you still have this demonic missile that can't be targeted due to being a charecter.
Putting Temporal manipulation on the rubrics doesn't seem to make much sense to me, you can't bring rubrics back with it and is a reactive spell, meaning you need to wait until you have damage done before you can even cast it. I prefer firestorm of tzeench on mine for the extra mortal wound opportunitys.
You didn't give any of your deamon princes any of the good deamon spells, gaze of fate, Flickering flames, these are 2 very useful spells especially if you have a good target like a defiler or forgefiend to cast on.
Your list is close to the list I lost too this weekend, granted we were playing at 1500 pts, but still it's a powerful list. You may have trouble with holds though, tyrnaids could really cause issues to it. Keep in mind you can only cast a spell once a turn other than smite so once you cast weaver of fate and glamor of tzeench on magnus then anyone else with that spell can't cast it.
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Deffskullz desert scavengers
Thousand Sons 
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